I think our Red may be the brother of the real Raymond Reddington. Just a thought.
The Blacklist
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Well, I caught up with the podcast, and listened to the Real Red in the bag of bones theory.
Thing is that I watched again the episode I mentioned before (Seas 1 Ep 7) and without spoiling it for you, if you want to watch
it again......I won't mention any details of what happened.
But I still believe that we have had the Real Red all the time since Season 1 Episode 1.
I say that because of what happened at the very end of Season 1 Episode 7, so the way I interpret what happened
back then, and if the writers are consistent with that episode, well then, the real Red is not in that bag.
It was nice to see Tom alive again, and remember that gal, Lucy or something, the gal from the CIA before she was killed.
I just finished watching S01E07. I forgot the blackister (Barnes) was a doctor I watched on House MD for 9 years. Were you talking about the speech Red made at the end about burning the world to protect someone that he loved? And the flashback he had at the house that he paid 2x the asking price for before he blew it up??
That's the episode, I have fun watching again those old episodes,
That lady who was CIA and part of the team, well the last time I saw that actress before Blacklist was in Alcatraz (Fox)
Yep, the last minutes of that episode at that house, for which Red's finance lady (RIP) paid twice the asking price and in cash.
The lady in charge of Red's money was wondering why that house, why not one in Florence, Doha?.
Then Red told her that he raised his family there, so I interpreted that as this is the real Red, who spent years in
that house with his wife and daughter Jennifer, the one he saw in those flashbacks.
I think only the real Red would know where exactly he should remove the paneling from the wall to find out
those marks, that would remind him of his little Jennifer when she was growing up in that house.
But then after paying that hefty price for the house, he blew it up, he was trying to forget that part of his past life.
So as I try to put those pieces together this Red is the real one, the same Red who lived in that house.
Did he even look for Jennifer all these years? Was he worried about her?
Apparently not
But then in this last episode, Garvey told Jennifer something about her unfounded worries all these years, that Red might
find her. Why????? Because Garvey thought he's not the real Red?
Or because he is the real Red, but he didn't care about Jennifer?
As Red was pointing his gun at Garvey, and when Jennifer placed herself in front of Garvey, and the
truth was revealed to Red, that she was Jennifer, Red didn't seem to care a bit.
Well that was my impression.
Why would Red be obsessed with Liz these last 5 years and not before?
And why did he apparently neglected and wanted to forget everything about Jennifer?
I hope the series lives long enough to provide those answers, because honestly I'm still baffled and
confused to say the least about this whole issue with the bag of bones, and now this "new daughter"
well not new daughter, actually the old daugher.
How come no one so far has provided us with at least a bone, on whose bones are in that
suitcase, now a bag.
Mr Kaplan didn't say anything, Tom didn't either, and they both are gone now.
Dembe knows, Garvey knows or knew, I still think he died without telling anything to Liz.......
That's the episode, I have fun watching again those old episodes,
That lady who was CIA and part of the team, well the last time I saw that actress before Blacklist was in Alcatraz (Fox)
Yep, the last minutes of that episode at that house, for which Red's finance lady (RIP) paid twice the asking price and in cash.
The lady in charge of Red's money was wondering why that house, why not one in Florence, Doha?.
Then Red told her that he raised his family there, so I interpreted that as this is the real Red, who spent years in
that house with his wife and daughter Jennifer, the one he saw in those flashbacks.
I think only the real Red would know where exactly he should remove the paneling from the wall to find out
those marks, that would remind him of his little Jennifer when she was growing up in that house.
But then after paying that hefty price for the house, he blew it up, he was trying to forget that part of his past life.
So as I try to put those pieces together this Red is the real one, the same Red who lived in that house.
Did he even look for Jennifer all these years? Was he worried about her?
Apparently not
But then in this last episode, Garvey told Jennifer something about her unfounded worries all these years, that Red might
find her. Why????? Because Garvey thought he's not the real Red?
Or because he is the real Red, but he didn't care about Jennifer?
As Red was pointing his gun at Garvey, and when Jennifer placed herself in front of Garvey, and the
truth was revealed to Red, that she was Jennifer, Red didn't seem to care a bit.
Well that was my impression.
Why would Red be obsessed with Liz these last 5 years and not before?
And why did he apparently neglected and wanted to forget everything about Jennifer?
I hope the series lives long enough to provide those answers, because honestly I'm still baffled and
confused to say the least about this whole issue with the bag of bones, and now this "new daughter"
well not new daughter, actually the old daugher.
How come no one so far has provided us with at least a bone, on whose bones are in that
suitcase, now a bag.
Mr Kaplan didn't say anything, Tom didn't either, and they both are gone now.
Dembe knows, Garvey knows or knew, I still think he died without telling anything to Liz.......
You bring up some excellent points. I hope we get those questions answered too. The Ian Garvey actor was the warden of Alcatraz. Small world.
Wow, You Are Totally RIght.., Thanks for reminding me. For some reason I didn't remember this Ian Garvey in Alcatraz.
Thanks,
Well, now I'm getting obsessed with the bones in the bag mystery.
Last night I watched the first minutes of S1E1.
Info on that episdode:
- Cooper asked Ressler if they were sure that was the real Reddington
- Ressler, Said yes, the fingerprints and tattoos match, Red even provided some classified info about an operation in Brussels where the US Government tried to kill Reddington
- Cooper sees Red on the screen and confirms: Yes that's him, Red makes some remark implying he knows Cooper from before.
- On Christmas 1990 Reddington's beloved wife and daughter, were waiting for him to come home, but he never showed up, and he disappeared from the grid, when he resurfaced he was no longer the "good husband and father" not the "good Navy Intel officer" but he was a criminal.
My take on that info:
The FBI had pre-1990 records and fingerprints from Reddington, now this guy shows up at the FBI, his fingerprints compared vs the pre-1990 database, equals a match, so this has been the real McCoy since episode 1.
I watched again the last minutes of last episode (Ian Garvey Conclusion)
Info on that episode
Garvey tells Jennifer something like:
"You have been living a lie these past 30 years"
"There was no need for you to have been hiding all these years"
Jennifer told Red, that he disappeared 28 years ago (i.e. in 1990) and that she was waiting for him to come home on Christmas day, and he never showed up, never went back home and broke her little heart.
My thoughts on that info:
I only have questions without answers
Ok, the info matches with S1Ep1, Reddington disappeared in 1990, that is the "good Red" disappeared and after that, the Red who reappeared was a "bad Red", something like his evil twin, or his brother some people would theorize.
According to US Marshall Ian Garvey, Jennifer, who has been living under the identity of "Lilly" and apparently under a witness protection program (which I think it's a conjecture only, because I don't remember that being stated as a fact in any episode), had no real reason whatsoever to live hiding from Red.
Why?
Option A - Because this Red is the real Red and he lost all interest in his wife and his daughter Jennifer back in 1990, he wanted to forget everything about his past life, even to the extent of buying his old house at an exorbitant price just to blow it up.
Therefore Red is not interested at all in killing Jennifer. Red lost all interest in Jennifer since Christmas 1990.
Either I missed something all these 5 seasons, or not and if not, I don't remember a single episode in which Red would have expressed any interest in finding out Jennifer's whereabouts. Nope.
What I read is that Red was only obsessed with his love child, the result of his endless love for Katerina, while totally ignoring Jennifer's fate.
Option B - Garvey says Jennifer had no reason to hide all these years from Red, because this Red is not the Real Red, and therefore if he's not the real Red, he's not interested in killing her.
Sounds logic, except I dont't think this one flies, when I consider the info from S1E1 and S1E7
Questions for which I don't have answers
If Garvey knows "the Truth", why didn't he try to take some advantage of it, blackmail Red?
, or take the bag of bones to the FBI? something?
Mr Kaplan knew "the truth" and she wanted Liz to know it, but if "The Truth" will hurt Liz so much, (Red is willing to kill
whoever wants to disclose "The Truth" to Liz), why would Mr Kaplan want Liz to know such "truth".
If the bones in the bag are Katerina's, Would such theory fit and fly along with the rest of the info provided so far
during these 5 seasons?
Dembe knows "the truth", and he suggested to Red, that he should tell Liz "The Truth", so in Dembe's opinion
"The Truth" is no biggie, nothing that would cause major consequences.
But for Red, "The Truth" is a major issue, a big No-No, something Liz should never know.
If the bones in the bag are the real Red, would Liz get so angry at Red, that she would never forgive him?
I dont' think so. But then who would be Lizzie's real father the real dead Red or the phony alive Red?
But if the bones in the bag, are Katerina's, that would imply, foul play by Red against Katerina, a crime
that Mr Kaplan cleaned up after him, that's how Mr Kaplan knew about 'em bones and their hiding site.
If the bones are Katerina's remains, implying Red killed her,
Would Liz ever forgive Red for killing her mother?
Yay or Nay?
I'd say Nay
However we'll have to wait to find out "The Truth", that only a handful (Red, Dembe, Mr Kaplan, Tom and Garvey) have been
privy to.
I watched again S4 2 last episodes, a that I cannd when Red met Mr K for the first time:
I'm writing this down so I don't forget later:
- When Red met Mr Kaplan for the first time, he told her that he turned into a criminal to protect Masha a.k.a. Liz
- Red goes to Dom's house (Masha's grandfather) tells him Masha is alive, Dom gets upset at Red
for telling him she was dead. Red says he thought Masha had died at birth, that is what Katerina told him.
- Cooper knew Red from before 1990, they kinda worked together.
- Cooper knew about a pre-1990 blood sample from Red, he had access to it, ran the test, results confirmed that Reddington (at least the pre 1990 Red) is indeed Lizzie's bilogical father.
- Mr Kaplan went to Tansi Farms, walks up to a tree, which has a K carved on it. she counts like 3 steps.
Then kneeling on the ground and looking at the ground she says: "I'm sorry Katerina" then she starts to dig.
- Mr Kaplan told Liz, that she could tell her the truth, about why Red walked into her life.
- Liz told Cooper that when she and Red went to Montreal (S1E2) at dinner she took the glass Red had used and took a DNA sample, had it tested, but she was too afraid to look at the results, she never looked at them and threw away those post 1990 DNA test results, i,e. there is no DNA test for the post 1990 Red as far as we know.
- Liz learns about the DNA test results provided by Cooper, which reveal Raymond Reddington is her father.
Liz goes to Red, and acknowledges him as her real dad.
- Red tells that to Dembe who then asks Red - And you didn't deny it?
Red says No
Dembe: So she think's that was Kaplan's secret,
So she doesn't know about the suitcase?
Red: Not yet
Dembe: I don't think Liz will ever be ready to learn what you did to Katerina.
I'm writing this down so I don't forget later:
- When Red met Mr Kaplan for the first time, he told her that he turned into a criminal to protect Masha a.k.a. Liz
- Red goes to Dom's house (Masha's grandfather) tells him Masha is alive, Dom gets upset at Red
for telling him she was dead. Red says he thought Masha had died at birth, that is what Katerina told him.
- Cooper knew Red from before 1990, they kinda worked together.
- Cooper knew about a pre-1990 blood sample from Red, he had access to it, ran the test, results confirmed that Reddington (at least the pre 1990 Red) is indeed Lizzie's bilogical father.
- Mr Kaplan went to Tansi Farms, walks up to a tree, which has a K carved on it. she counts like 3 steps.
Then kneeling on the ground and looking at the ground she says: "I'm sorry Katerina" then she starts to dig.
- Mr Kaplan told Liz, that she could tell her the truth, about why Red walked into her life.
- Liz told Cooper that when she and Red went to Montreal (S1E2) at dinner she took the glass Red had used and took a DNA sample, had it tested, but she was too afraid to look at the results, she never looked at them and threw away those post 1990 DNA test results, i,e. there is no DNA test for the post 1990 Red as far as we know.
- Liz learns about the DNA test results provided by Cooper, which reveal Raymond Reddington is her father.
Liz goes to Red, and acknowledges him as her real dad.
- Red tells that to Dembe who then asks Red - And you didn't deny it?
Red says No
Dembe: So she think's that was Kaplan's secret,
So she doesn't know about the suitcase?
Red: Not yet
Dembe: I don't think Liz will ever be ready to learn what you did to Katerina.
Here are some comments provided by Bokenkamp regarding a much more complex and deeper "truth" regarding those bones
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Red has been revealed as Liz’s father. Has this been the plan from the beginning?
JON BOKENKAMP: Yes, it has been. Exactly where that would fall, we weren’t always certain, but it became clear this season as we were arcing out the stories that this point in the mythology of the timeline was the right moment.
How hard was it keeping this reveal a secret all these years?
This show is full of secrets, so it’s always difficult to talk about the story lines without giving away answers. We unpacked another big one tonight — this suitcase and its contents — it’s all connected and it’s all difficult to talk about. I always feel it’s probably best to let the episodes speak best for themselves.
Isn’t this the obvious answer the fans have been expecting from the beginning? Why confirm what everyone has basically said since season 1?
Because it is part of the truth, but not the entire [thing]. There is a larger reason for him entering her life, a bigger secret that is also revealed in this episode, so while it is part of the story, it is not the entire story.
Talk about that bigger secret.
That bigger secret involves, in part, some bones that were dug up by Mr. Kaplan, and that Elizabeth Keen is unaware of, and that Red is desperate to keep Liz from finding. That bag of bones represents a much larger story that is the ultimate hook of the show. So yes, the paternal issue is something that perhaps one might have expected, but in hindsight, when we look back on the entire series, it will make sense in a way that perhaps it doesn’t now. All I can really say is, it is a piece of a much larger puzzle.
Tom has the suitcase. Can you talk about whether he’ll struggle with the decision to give Liz the suitcase?
Oh, yeah, I’m confident Tom will struggle. He has no idea what he’s gotten into. That suitcase is packed full of nothing but problems for Reddington.
Given that the tree is marked with the letter K, are we to believe they are Katarina’s bones?
That’s a good road to go down. That seems like a logical explanation. Katarina was never seen again, so yes, that’s a good theory probably.
Another theory: Could they be Raymond Reddington’s bones?
That could also be a good theory. I love the way you look at this. Look, they could be anyone, right? But they’re going to be a problem, a real problem, if Liz finds out about them. These bones are a key to unlocking everything, and Red is not ready for that yet.
Can these DNA results actually be trusted given where they came from?
I think so. That’s why we anchored that so far in the past that the DNA of Raymond Reddington from this bloody shirt all these years ago gives us that answer. So yes, I think we should trust that.
Ultimately you are saying Red is her father, so will Liz be operating under the news that she is Red’s daughter next season?
Yes, Liz learned that Raymond Reddington is her father and yet there’s a much bigger secret that is out there that presents a real problem.
How does knowing that these bones are out there affect Red?
He’s incredibly conflicted, because there’s this enormous emotional bombshell, and yet, at the same time, he has always withheld partial truths. He’s withholding the biggest secret from Liz, so not only is there a lot of conflicted emotional things happening between he and Elizabeth Keen, there’s always this much larger secret that has him entirely on his heels, terrified and presents a problem in a way that he’s never dealt with before. Kaplan was his most trusted confidante, knew deep truths. Even now, her death presents a catastrophic problem. I think he’s terrified. By the way, the other thing that’s interesting is, he has been reduced to rubble. His empire has been ripped apart, he’s left with nothing. We’ve seen him destroy all of his aliases, he’s living in a dumpy motel, so he won the war, but it has really shifted who he is in a way that is going to be fun looking ahead at how he handles this, and what he does in terms of moving forward.
How will this change Liz going into next season now knowing who Red is to her?
I don’t entirely know, but I would expect to see her explore that. She’s recognized that the devil is her father, and she’s had incredible windows into that in the past, including murdering the attorney general and going on the run and being a criminal. So I would expect her to explore that darker side that is in her blood.
How will the team react to this news?
The team doesn’t know anything about it yet. Cooper knows about it, but as far as the rest of the team, it hasn’t been revealed. I think they’d all react in very different ways. They’ve also all got their own problems — or good situations. Aram and Samar have acknowledged something between them with the kiss, Ressler is left a blacklister to basically clean up the mess of Laurel Hitchin’s death, so he’s not in a good place, and Cooper is the one who knows the secret. I think they’ll all react in different ways and it’ll be incredibly complex. It’ll be a great pull for our people to try to rally together. Remember, Julian Gale is still out there with his investigation of the task force. He was thwarted by Reddington and the investigation was stopped, but he’s still out there and he’s still a loose end. That’s going to be a good story.
William Hart/NBC
There’s been a theory that the person we see as Red is not actually her father, but Liz’s mother. Is this still a possibility considering the twist that you have in store for us?
That makes me smile. Look, it is one of the theories that I’ve obviously heard. There is a big camp that [believes the] Raymond Reddington imposter theory, that Red is not who he says he is. I mean, I can’t deny that that all still adds up and is one of the theories that makes sense. It’s out there, it’s cool, I’d love to have you walk me through the whole thing. But this imposter theory is one that’s alive among our fan base. This season, we have really motored ahead. Each season, we’ve given real concrete pieces of this puzzle, and this season is no exception. Some episodes were heavy in that mythology than others. The Mr. Kaplan episode was certainly an episode that had a lot of big moves in it. This last episode has some big moves. Again, they’re all pieces of this puzzle that is slowly coming together to paint one large picture. But it’s a blast seeing it come together, and it’s also a lot of fun to read comments and threads and tweets and see the theories, because there’s a lot of them, and they’re really a blast to read.
Will Dom play a bigger role next season?
I love Brian Dennehy, so it’s hard to resist bringing him in. He’s a great actor and we’re lucky to have him on the show. He definitely is part of the landscape and occupies an important space. You see that play out on screen. All these answers, what ends up airing is far better than answering these questions than I am because that’s what’s really canon for the show. He is somebody who obviously does not like Reddington. They have a fraught relationship. He’s hurt. He was told that Elizabeth Keen was dead, and found out she faked her death — Red didn’t even tell Dom until this season that Liz is actually alive, so this guy is living with all kinds of baggage. He’s an important character in the mythology.
Is Mr. Kaplan actually dead? And can you talk about the reason why she went over the bridge?
I love how far she’s willing to go for Liz, that she was willing to die for what she believed in and that was part of her plan, that her death would effectively trigger a death switch that would unravel Reddington. Even with her dead, her plan is marching forward. That was the most compelling thing, that she was willing to die to carry out the promise that she had made all these years ago to keep Liz safe. And so is she really dead? I think so. It would be hard to bring her back, but with that said, I love Susan Blommaert so much. It’s like when Alan Alda died, it broke my heart. We blew up Alan Alda, who is a TV legend. Sometimes you have to listen to the show and where it wants to go. That was a really hard death in the show, and this one as well. If we were smart enough to find a way to bring her back that felt real, fantastic, but I think her tombstone has been written.
Circling back to the task force, Laurel Hitchin dies right after closing the investigation. Will that raise some red flags?
That depends on how her death is handled. We’ll see how well Mr. Prescott gets rid of her body. Reven Wright just disappeared; nobody else knows she’s actually dead, so we’ll have to see how well her disappearance/death is swept under the rug. But I’m sure there will be questions raised. Even Julian Gale would probably be very curious to know what happened to the woman who just shut him down.
Even with the investigation closed, with the news out there, will the task force be disbanded?
The news is out there in a closed grand jury investigation, which is containable. I don’t think it was out there as in, Liz murdered the attorney general and is a fugitive. It’s not that out there to the public. It’s contained within the intelligence community that was confusing this investigation. The bigger problem is that Reddington has really no resources. Baz was killed, Mr. Kaplan is gone. It’s basically he and Dembe, and he’s starting over, in a way. That’s the bigger problem for the task force is, the man that it’s built around is reduced to rubble.
What kind of danger does this put Liz in as Red’s organization is all but non-existent now? Will we see Red rebuilding next year?
That’s the thing I’m most excited about really, looking ahead, is the show has always been dark in its own odd way and dangerous and high-staked, but we’re spring-boarding forward in the fifth season in a way where Red is stripped down to nothing and is forced to rebuild. Does Liz join him in that rebuilding? What does that look like? The only thing I know for sure about it is it’s going to be a hell of a lot of fun because he has nothing left to lose. We almost want to step back in terms of who the character was and how much joy he takes in his life and how he moves and operates. He built a criminal empire once and I think watching him go out and try to scratch and put back together some sort of criminal business is going to be a really fun ride that we’ve never gone on. He’s got to rebuild his team, which means populating it with new people. He’s not just taking down blacklisters because they stand in his way. I would imagine that he might go after people that could help him reboot his empire. It’s been one of the things that we talk about in the room is just having a lot of fun with the character and it almost feels like an opportunity for us to reboot the tone in a way that can be a lot of fun.
Red has an escape plan with that island. Will that come back into play next season?
Well, I hadn’t thought about it until now, but yeah, that’s a great idea! Red in a crisp white suit. Drinks in coconuts with umbrellas. Bottle episode on the island!
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Red has been revealed as Liz’s father. Has this been the plan from the beginning?
JON BOKENKAMP: Yes, it has been. Exactly where that would fall, we weren’t always certain, but it became clear this season as we were arcing out the stories that this point in the mythology of the timeline was the right moment.
How hard was it keeping this reveal a secret all these years?
This show is full of secrets, so it’s always difficult to talk about the story lines without giving away answers. We unpacked another big one tonight — this suitcase and its contents — it’s all connected and it’s all difficult to talk about. I always feel it’s probably best to let the episodes speak best for themselves.
Isn’t this the obvious answer the fans have been expecting from the beginning? Why confirm what everyone has basically said since season 1?
Because it is part of the truth, but not the entire [thing]. There is a larger reason for him entering her life, a bigger secret that is also revealed in this episode, so while it is part of the story, it is not the entire story.
Talk about that bigger secret.
That bigger secret involves, in part, some bones that were dug up by Mr. Kaplan, and that Elizabeth Keen is unaware of, and that Red is desperate to keep Liz from finding. That bag of bones represents a much larger story that is the ultimate hook of the show. So yes, the paternal issue is something that perhaps one might have expected, but in hindsight, when we look back on the entire series, it will make sense in a way that perhaps it doesn’t now. All I can really say is, it is a piece of a much larger puzzle.
Tom has the suitcase. Can you talk about whether he’ll struggle with the decision to give Liz the suitcase?
Oh, yeah, I’m confident Tom will struggle. He has no idea what he’s gotten into. That suitcase is packed full of nothing but problems for Reddington.
Given that the tree is marked with the letter K, are we to believe they are Katarina’s bones?
That’s a good road to go down. That seems like a logical explanation. Katarina was never seen again, so yes, that’s a good theory probably.
Another theory: Could they be Raymond Reddington’s bones?
That could also be a good theory. I love the way you look at this. Look, they could be anyone, right? But they’re going to be a problem, a real problem, if Liz finds out about them. These bones are a key to unlocking everything, and Red is not ready for that yet.
Can these DNA results actually be trusted given where they came from?
I think so. That’s why we anchored that so far in the past that the DNA of Raymond Reddington from this bloody shirt all these years ago gives us that answer. So yes, I think we should trust that.
Ultimately you are saying Red is her father, so will Liz be operating under the news that she is Red’s daughter next season?
Yes, Liz learned that Raymond Reddington is her father and yet there’s a much bigger secret that is out there that presents a real problem.
How does knowing that these bones are out there affect Red?
He’s incredibly conflicted, because there’s this enormous emotional bombshell, and yet, at the same time, he has always withheld partial truths. He’s withholding the biggest secret from Liz, so not only is there a lot of conflicted emotional things happening between he and Elizabeth Keen, there’s always this much larger secret that has him entirely on his heels, terrified and presents a problem in a way that he’s never dealt with before. Kaplan was his most trusted confidante, knew deep truths. Even now, her death presents a catastrophic problem. I think he’s terrified. By the way, the other thing that’s interesting is, he has been reduced to rubble. His empire has been ripped apart, he’s left with nothing. We’ve seen him destroy all of his aliases, he’s living in a dumpy motel, so he won the war, but it has really shifted who he is in a way that is going to be fun looking ahead at how he handles this, and what he does in terms of moving forward.
How will this change Liz going into next season now knowing who Red is to her?
I don’t entirely know, but I would expect to see her explore that. She’s recognized that the devil is her father, and she’s had incredible windows into that in the past, including murdering the attorney general and going on the run and being a criminal. So I would expect her to explore that darker side that is in her blood.
How will the team react to this news?
The team doesn’t know anything about it yet. Cooper knows about it, but as far as the rest of the team, it hasn’t been revealed. I think they’d all react in very different ways. They’ve also all got their own problems — or good situations. Aram and Samar have acknowledged something between them with the kiss, Ressler is left a blacklister to basically clean up the mess of Laurel Hitchin’s death, so he’s not in a good place, and Cooper is the one who knows the secret. I think they’ll all react in different ways and it’ll be incredibly complex. It’ll be a great pull for our people to try to rally together. Remember, Julian Gale is still out there with his investigation of the task force. He was thwarted by Reddington and the investigation was stopped, but he’s still out there and he’s still a loose end. That’s going to be a good story.
William Hart/NBC
There’s been a theory that the person we see as Red is not actually her father, but Liz’s mother. Is this still a possibility considering the twist that you have in store for us?
That makes me smile. Look, it is one of the theories that I’ve obviously heard. There is a big camp that [believes the] Raymond Reddington imposter theory, that Red is not who he says he is. I mean, I can’t deny that that all still adds up and is one of the theories that makes sense. It’s out there, it’s cool, I’d love to have you walk me through the whole thing. But this imposter theory is one that’s alive among our fan base. This season, we have really motored ahead. Each season, we’ve given real concrete pieces of this puzzle, and this season is no exception. Some episodes were heavy in that mythology than others. The Mr. Kaplan episode was certainly an episode that had a lot of big moves in it. This last episode has some big moves. Again, they’re all pieces of this puzzle that is slowly coming together to paint one large picture. But it’s a blast seeing it come together, and it’s also a lot of fun to read comments and threads and tweets and see the theories, because there’s a lot of them, and they’re really a blast to read.
Will Dom play a bigger role next season?
I love Brian Dennehy, so it’s hard to resist bringing him in. He’s a great actor and we’re lucky to have him on the show. He definitely is part of the landscape and occupies an important space. You see that play out on screen. All these answers, what ends up airing is far better than answering these questions than I am because that’s what’s really canon for the show. He is somebody who obviously does not like Reddington. They have a fraught relationship. He’s hurt. He was told that Elizabeth Keen was dead, and found out she faked her death — Red didn’t even tell Dom until this season that Liz is actually alive, so this guy is living with all kinds of baggage. He’s an important character in the mythology.
Is Mr. Kaplan actually dead? And can you talk about the reason why she went over the bridge?
I love how far she’s willing to go for Liz, that she was willing to die for what she believed in and that was part of her plan, that her death would effectively trigger a death switch that would unravel Reddington. Even with her dead, her plan is marching forward. That was the most compelling thing, that she was willing to die to carry out the promise that she had made all these years ago to keep Liz safe. And so is she really dead? I think so. It would be hard to bring her back, but with that said, I love Susan Blommaert so much. It’s like when Alan Alda died, it broke my heart. We blew up Alan Alda, who is a TV legend. Sometimes you have to listen to the show and where it wants to go. That was a really hard death in the show, and this one as well. If we were smart enough to find a way to bring her back that felt real, fantastic, but I think her tombstone has been written.
Circling back to the task force, Laurel Hitchin dies right after closing the investigation. Will that raise some red flags?
That depends on how her death is handled. We’ll see how well Mr. Prescott gets rid of her body. Reven Wright just disappeared; nobody else knows she’s actually dead, so we’ll have to see how well her disappearance/death is swept under the rug. But I’m sure there will be questions raised. Even Julian Gale would probably be very curious to know what happened to the woman who just shut him down.
Even with the investigation closed, with the news out there, will the task force be disbanded?
The news is out there in a closed grand jury investigation, which is containable. I don’t think it was out there as in, Liz murdered the attorney general and is a fugitive. It’s not that out there to the public. It’s contained within the intelligence community that was confusing this investigation. The bigger problem is that Reddington has really no resources. Baz was killed, Mr. Kaplan is gone. It’s basically he and Dembe, and he’s starting over, in a way. That’s the bigger problem for the task force is, the man that it’s built around is reduced to rubble.
What kind of danger does this put Liz in as Red’s organization is all but non-existent now? Will we see Red rebuilding next year?
That’s the thing I’m most excited about really, looking ahead, is the show has always been dark in its own odd way and dangerous and high-staked, but we’re spring-boarding forward in the fifth season in a way where Red is stripped down to nothing and is forced to rebuild. Does Liz join him in that rebuilding? What does that look like? The only thing I know for sure about it is it’s going to be a hell of a lot of fun because he has nothing left to lose. We almost want to step back in terms of who the character was and how much joy he takes in his life and how he moves and operates. He built a criminal empire once and I think watching him go out and try to scratch and put back together some sort of criminal business is going to be a really fun ride that we’ve never gone on. He’s got to rebuild his team, which means populating it with new people. He’s not just taking down blacklisters because they stand in his way. I would imagine that he might go after people that could help him reboot his empire. It’s been one of the things that we talk about in the room is just having a lot of fun with the character and it almost feels like an opportunity for us to reboot the tone in a way that can be a lot of fun.
Red has an escape plan with that island. Will that come back into play next season?
Well, I hadn’t thought about it until now, but yeah, that’s a great idea! Red in a crisp white suit. Drinks in coconuts with umbrellas. Bottle episode on the island!
After re-watching other episodes related to the bones, I've finally concluded that:
- Not even Jon Bokenkamp knows whose bones are in the bag
- There are inconsistencies on the story, since there have been several persons writing different episodes, and they're not on
the same page, regarding 'em bones.
- The bones could be real Raymond's, except for some clues in several episodes
- The bones could actually be Katerina's, except for some clues, especially in last episode.
Therefore, (maybe more out of frustration than anything else), I've decided to come up with the following theory which does fit all clues provided up to last episode:
- The bones are a freakish quantum phenomenon, I'll call them Schroedinger's bones (we have bones in a bag in this case, as opposed
as the proverbial cat in the box in Schroedinger's quantum physics proposal).
Because they are both Real Reddington's and Katarina's bones at the same time, but they will only be either one, or somebody else's until
"The Truth" is finally revelead in this season's finale.
There's still nothing official regarding a renewal for another season.
- Not even Jon Bokenkamp knows whose bones are in the bag
- There are inconsistencies on the story, since there have been several persons writing different episodes, and they're not on
the same page, regarding 'em bones.
- The bones could be real Raymond's, except for some clues in several episodes
- The bones could actually be Katerina's, except for some clues, especially in last episode.
Therefore, (maybe more out of frustration than anything else), I've decided to come up with the following theory which does fit all clues provided up to last episode:
- The bones are a freakish quantum phenomenon, I'll call them Schroedinger's bones (we have bones in a bag in this case, as opposed
as the proverbial cat in the box in Schroedinger's quantum physics proposal).
Because they are both Real Reddington's and Katarina's bones at the same time, but they will only be either one, or somebody else's until
"The Truth" is finally revelead in this season's finale.
There's still nothing official regarding a renewal for another season.
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Watching again S2E1, which IMO was a good one.
Katy Perry played a woman suffering from DID. and we got to meet Red's wife, yep, Jennifer's mother.
There were 4 episodes with Red's wife, and I think only in one of them, was the only time when Red asked (his ex-wife) about
Jennifer.
I liked those episodes, in one of them, Pee-wee Herman played the role of Red's fixer Mr Vargas.
I understand some characters and actors who have been in previous episodes will at least have a cameo in this season finale.
Katy Perry played a woman suffering from DID. and we got to meet Red's wife, yep, Jennifer's mother.
There were 4 episodes with Red's wife, and I think only in one of them, was the only time when Red asked (his ex-wife) about
Jennifer.
I liked those episodes, in one of them, Pee-wee Herman played the role of Red's fixer Mr Vargas.
I understand some characters and actors who have been in previous episodes will at least have a cameo in this season finale.
Re-watching S2E2, Tom askedLiz, Hasn't Red told you about that night, the fire,, the truth?
That's the reason he came back into your life,
Liz was just dreaming it, but Tom knew something about that night, and when he saw the DNA results it all made a click and thus
he told Red, that now he knew The Truth, he knew everything,
In the end, if the finale shows the bones are the real Red, lots of fans will feel deceived, as there are many episodes that contradict that theory.
Same thing will happen if the finale shows the bones are Katerina's as there has been plenty of info to support that theory, but there are also
many scenes, that go against it.
I guess the minority of fans, would expect a third option.
Below is the link for a clean audio of Lizzie's repressed memories from the night of the fire (I think audio @ 4:27 has an important clue).
Anyway, I was reviewing the poor ratings the show has had during this season.
And I think the greater mystery here is not the bones, but if the show will live for a season 6.
I know that out of the viewers and fans who started faithfully watching the show, many of them got tired of it, and stoped watching.
And I've read comments elsewhere of fans, indicating that if The Truth of the bones does not align with their theories (and I understand
all theories have been based on a dilligent and time-consuming research by the fans), they will absolutely stop watching the show.
And I wouldn't blame them.
I am positively sure, that there is evidence throught the 5 seasons, with contradictions in the backgrounds, events, information disclosed, etc., surrounding the bones, but anyway.
If the show lives for a season 6, what I'd love is to see is for the show going back to the basic format that made it a success.
That is to go after a blacklister, that in the process will help Red to build his empire.
That's the reason he came back into your life,
Liz was just dreaming it, but Tom knew something about that night, and when he saw the DNA results it all made a click and thus
he told Red, that now he knew The Truth, he knew everything,
In the end, if the finale shows the bones are the real Red, lots of fans will feel deceived, as there are many episodes that contradict that theory.
Same thing will happen if the finale shows the bones are Katerina's as there has been plenty of info to support that theory, but there are also
many scenes, that go against it.
I guess the minority of fans, would expect a third option.
Below is the link for a clean audio of Lizzie's repressed memories from the night of the fire (I think audio @ 4:27 has an important clue).
Anyway, I was reviewing the poor ratings the show has had during this season.
And I think the greater mystery here is not the bones, but if the show will live for a season 6.
I know that out of the viewers and fans who started faithfully watching the show, many of them got tired of it, and stoped watching.
And I've read comments elsewhere of fans, indicating that if The Truth of the bones does not align with their theories (and I understand
all theories have been based on a dilligent and time-consuming research by the fans), they will absolutely stop watching the show.
And I wouldn't blame them.
I am positively sure, that there is evidence throught the 5 seasons, with contradictions in the backgrounds, events, information disclosed, etc., surrounding the bones, but anyway.
If the show lives for a season 6, what I'd love is to see is for the show going back to the basic format that made it a success.
That is to go after a blacklister, that in the process will help Red to build his empire.
Very mysterious indeed.
One theory that I have the impression that Jon has totally disregarded is the Rederina theory.
And that's one that I don't agree with, even though I see all the pieces supporting it, the supporters of such theory have done a thorough research and gather info to back it up.
For example, last episode when Red was talking to Jen while having tea, (and I think this was mentioned in the podcast).
Red told Jen: "Your father didn't abandon you"
While the normal pattern of speech from a father to his daughter would be :"I didn't abandon you"
Very ambigous to say the least, and that answer would support the uncle theory, as well as the Rederina one.
Red is so ambigous that I could imagine if someone would ask him questions for a basic questionnaire, it would go like this:
Person asking Red: Sex?
Red: 3 times a week - Instead of answering male or female, mm... more amo for the Rederina theory right?
I now feel like back in school,as if I had to prepare a paper, prepare for a test, because I'm re-watching episodes like crazy, rewinding, re-watching. then reading boards all over the net, to research more details, with only 2 weeks left to finally be ready for the big event.
I have listened and re-listened to the audio linked above, like if my life would depend on passing a test, that will ask me questions about it.
I downloaded the audio, used an audio editing software to slow down the speed, make sure I heard right, you name it.
And with only 2 weeks to go, I think whoever writes the finale (and I think Bokenkamp will have a part on it) they'll have to match at least the "facts" from the night of the fire, and what Garvey said, because that is fresh in the collective memory, but that will go against
basic info provided in Season 1.
Having said that I think they'll go with the "The real Red is in the bag" theory.
If that is the case, life won't be over for me, I know I'll manage and will be able to recover from that shock. Won't be easy though I know.
My main concern after the season finale, will be:
Will we have a Season 6?
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Yikes, I just found another couple of inconsistencies:
- On S2E5, Red uses Glen (DMV) to track down his daughter Jennifer, So I stand corrected, because Red did express some interest in finding her 3 years ago.
In that episode, Red observes her from a distance, as his daughter Jennifer is working at a food truck.
In that episode Red's daughter was living under the name of Zoe D'Antonio and the role was played by Scottie Thompson.
Also in that episode Red watches an 8 mm film that shows his daughter Jennifer as a little girl, playing, in a yard, a short clip of that same footage was shown on S1E7, when Red went to that house he bought just to blow up. IMO only the real Red would have that film and reminisce while watching it.
- On S2E7, Red actually sits down and has a conversation with his daughter Jennifer, but of course he doesn't reveal his true identity.
- Inconsistencies:
When we come to S5, Jennifer is now living under the identity of Lillian Roth (played by Fiona Dourif)
Ok, maybe she got a new identity after S2.
BUT a big BUT, Jennfer would have recognized Red, and mentioned something now on the Ian Garvey episode,
And Red should have also recognized her while pointing the gun at Garvey, and when Jen placed herself in front of Garvey.
I mean Red and Jen had seen each other only 3 years before at the food truck where Jen was working.
Therefore this lady who wrote the Ian Garvey conclusion episode, completely ignored the meeting that took place between Red and Jen (a.k.a. Zoe D'Antonio) even if at that time Red didn't disclose his identity to Jen.
By the way I don't agree with Garvey, who told Jen that she had been hiding for no reason at all.
We know that Berlin was able to get to Naomi Hyland (Red's wife) when he was trying to get to Red, and Berlin even cut off a finger from
Naomi's hand.
So actually, regardless of this Red's true identity it was more than reasonable for Jen to be hiding under protective custody. In any event the only thing IMO that would have triggered an alert for Garvey, was somebody running a search for Red's DNA, I don't think Katerina's DNA even if on the CODIS DB would have been an alert that Garvey would have cared to set up.
By the way, according to the official version the US Marshalls lost track of Jennifer some years ago, but we know that Garvey kept a close relationship with Jennifer, I guess just because he wanted to get to Red.
- On S2E5, Red uses Glen (DMV) to track down his daughter Jennifer, So I stand corrected, because Red did express some interest in finding her 3 years ago.
In that episode, Red observes her from a distance, as his daughter Jennifer is working at a food truck.
In that episode Red's daughter was living under the name of Zoe D'Antonio and the role was played by Scottie Thompson.
Also in that episode Red watches an 8 mm film that shows his daughter Jennifer as a little girl, playing, in a yard, a short clip of that same footage was shown on S1E7, when Red went to that house he bought just to blow up. IMO only the real Red would have that film and reminisce while watching it.
- On S2E7, Red actually sits down and has a conversation with his daughter Jennifer, but of course he doesn't reveal his true identity.
- Inconsistencies:
When we come to S5, Jennifer is now living under the identity of Lillian Roth (played by Fiona Dourif)
Ok, maybe she got a new identity after S2.
BUT a big BUT, Jennfer would have recognized Red, and mentioned something now on the Ian Garvey episode,
And Red should have also recognized her while pointing the gun at Garvey, and when Jen placed herself in front of Garvey.
I mean Red and Jen had seen each other only 3 years before at the food truck where Jen was working.
Therefore this lady who wrote the Ian Garvey conclusion episode, completely ignored the meeting that took place between Red and Jen (a.k.a. Zoe D'Antonio) even if at that time Red didn't disclose his identity to Jen.
By the way I don't agree with Garvey, who told Jen that she had been hiding for no reason at all.
We know that Berlin was able to get to Naomi Hyland (Red's wife) when he was trying to get to Red, and Berlin even cut off a finger from
Naomi's hand.
So actually, regardless of this Red's true identity it was more than reasonable for Jen to be hiding under protective custody. In any event the only thing IMO that would have triggered an alert for Garvey, was somebody running a search for Red's DNA, I don't think Katerina's DNA even if on the CODIS DB would have been an alert that Garvey would have cared to set up.
By the way, according to the official version the US Marshalls lost track of Jennifer some years ago, but we know that Garvey kept a close relationship with Jennifer, I guess just because he wanted to get to Red.
One of the hosts on The Blacklist Exposed Podcast also thinks it is Rederina theory. They said that Bokenkamp wrote this last episode. I'm sure they will tell us who writes the final two. I laughed when they pointed out where Aram used their first names while talking about some guys.
I guess it was a shout out since they interviewed him a few weeks ago.
One of the hosts on The Blacklist Exposed Podcast also thinks it is Rederina theory. They said that Bokenkamp wrote this last episode. I'm sure they will tell us who writes the final two. I laughed when they pointed out where Aram used their first names while talking about some guys.
You're right he's a big Rederina supporter, but there's a big group with him.
Now Jon Bokenkamp has said:
“Our upcoming season finale is built around a major reveal that’s been closely guarded since the inception of The Blacklist,” Bokenkamp tells EW. “Through the years we’ve alluded to it, and built the history surrounding it, so I think ardent fans of the show are going to see the truth snap into focus in a way they haven’t before. Not only is this twist going to blow up the show, but it’s going to change everything we do moving forward.”
Below is a photo from the season finale:
Check it out, Liz with her hands tied up behind her back, while sitting down in front of a Red who looks in control.
And a guy behind her with the duffel bag.
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