National Network HD feeds (Urgent Update):

[keenan]

What was missed is the fact that once a digital local-into-local market is added, the networks that have given a blanket waiver may rescind it at that time.

Yes, that was alluded to by the "private agreement" remark in the fact sheet. I guess the things to remember that pertain to O&O stations are that 1)There doesn't appear to any law that says you must lose them, and 2)Because they are private agreements between the networks and DirecTV, DirecTV and/or the network can halt their transmission at any time they want to as there is no law that says a satco has to provide DNS feeds.

I can't imagine DirecTV would enrage over 100,000 of it's customers(HD-TiVo) by shutting off O&O net feeds as soon as HD LiL is available , LonghornXP's scenario seems more reasonable. Hopefully that is the path DirecTV will take.

 

[Alan Gordon]

Yes, that was alluded to by the "private agreement" remark in the fact sheet. I guess the things to remember that pertain to O&O stations are that 1)There doesn't appear to any law that says you must lose them, and 2)Because they are private agreements between the networks and DirecTV, DirecTV and/or the network can halt their transmission at any time they want to as there is no law that says a satco has to provide DNS feeds.

I can't imagine DirecTV would enrage over 100,000 of it's customers(HD-TiVo) by shutting off O&O net feeds as soon as HD LiL is available , LonghornXP's scenario seems more reasonable. Hopefully that is the path DirecTV will take.

Since CBS has been on Dish Network for years, they may not have as big of a problem as some, and I'm sure that DirecTV won't have a problem with FOX.

However, there was some issue as to whether or not ABC-HD would ever be available to people since ABC got a lot of negative feedback from their affiliates regarding the possibility of ABC-HD being available for HD-DNS. Also, it's important to note that ABC-HD East & West was turned on AFTER the December 8, 2004 date mentioned in the section of SHVERA that Keenan qouted.

~Alan

 

[jabroni]

Of course, valid waivers obviate Direct's necessity to pull Nationals......

 

[Happy Camper]

Longhorn: My problem with this is that sending local HD channels into markets where over 80% of the customers can ALREADY receive local HD channels IS a stupid DirecTV choice, and THAT stupid choice is what is going to deprive us of the national feeds. I already get my local HD channels just fine-why in the world would I want to pay DirecTV to give me what I already have (and we have our locals pristine and uncompressed by D*'s HD Lite)?

Why not use this extra bandwidth to give us TNT HD and the rest of the national HD movie channels? I just am not getting this, it seems. When I've already got my HD locals, and a terrific HD TiVo to record them, it's hard for me to generate any enthusiasm for D* spending billions to re-gift them to us. We are going to get what benefit from this?

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart ass-I really and truly don't get it.

I've just got word that once your local market has HD LIL channels available customers will no longer get a national HD network feed even if your local station is O&O. No matter what hardware you have as long as HD locals are available in your market even if you don't want them you will no longer get a national network feed in SD or HD for that matter.

I know I've said otherwise but I'm assuming that someone at D* has been reading what I've said and I got a call from someone I can't name at D* telling me to tell everyone this information.

Sorry to break this bad news but this isn't a D* choice because once local channels are in your market the local station owners won't allow D* to offer those customers anything but their SD and HD local channels.

You must understand that this isn't a DirecTV choice and if you want this changed you must fight with your local station owners. Also even if one of your local stations is an O&O station you still won't get the national HD feed from that network because this O&O deal was only setup until they offer HD LIL channels. This was never planned to be a perminent offering.

 

[Ramy]

Longhorn: My problem with this is that sending local HD channels into markets where over 80% of the customers can ALREADY receive local HD channels IS a stupid DirecTV choice, and THAT stupid choice is what is going to deprive us of the national feeds. I already get my local HD channels just fine-why in the world would I want to pay DirecTV to give me what I already have (and we have our locals pristine and uncompressed by D*'s HD Lite)?

Why not use this extra bandwidth to give us TNT HD and the rest of the national HD movie channels? I just am not getting this, it seems. When I've already got my HD locals, and a terrific HD TiVo to record them, it's hard for me to generate any enthusiasm for D* spending billions to re-gift them to us. We are going to get what benefit from this?

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart ass-I really and truly don't get it.

Because there are people out there like myself that couldn't get them with a 100ft pole.

 

[Alan Gordon]

Because there are people out there like myself that couldn't get them with a 100ft pole.

I'm hoping that once the stations go full power in my DMA, this problem will go away, but I had SEVERAL instances where my local NBC affiliate's (and my FOX affiliate one night) digital signal went out due to the Troposphere messing with things late this Fall, and I missed several episodes of "Surface", "Las Vegas", "Medium" as well as an episode each of "Bones" and "House"... and was surprised to find them messed up on my HD-TiVo... and I would have LOVED to have had access to HD-LIL when that happened...

~Alan

 

[keenan]

Longhorn: My problem with this is that sending local HD channels into markets where over 80% of the customers can ALREADY receive local HD channels IS a stupid DirecTV choice, and THAT stupid choice is what is going to deprive us of the national feeds. I already get my local HD channels just fine-why in the world would I want to pay DirecTV to give me what I already have (and we have our locals pristine and uncompressed by D*'s HD Lite)?

Why not use this extra bandwidth to give us TNT HD and the rest of the national HD movie channels? I just am not getting this, it seems. When I've already got my HD locals, and a terrific HD TiVo to record them, it's hard for me to generate any enthusiasm for D* spending billions to re-gift them to us. We are going to get what benefit from this?

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a smart ass-I really and truly don't get it.

It's simple really, to compete with cable, which is satellite's No.1 competitor. Nationwide OTA viewership is less than 20%, that leaves about 80% of 110 million households as potential customers. Simple economics would dictate they go after that 80% instead of the 20%.

 

[JustBob]

It's simple really, to compete with cable, which is satellite's No.1 competitor. Nationwide OTA viewership is less than 20%, that leaves about 80% of 110 million households as potential customers. Simple economics would dictate they go after that 80% instead of the 20%.

Also, if you think about who's getting HD OTA right now it's the TV enthusiast who has been willing to put a little time and effort into it. Most people aren't going to go through putting up an OTA antenna, even if it is a better picture. HD is starting to reach the average consumer. I've been getting my HD locals for years, so this HD-LIL is useless for me. But I can see why DirecTV is doing it. For the average consumer, they want to make it nice and easy. I'm hoping they can add some national HD channels while they're at it.

-JustBob

 

[Happy Camper]

I guess it's just hard for me to believe that people won't just put up an antenna. In most places in the Dallas market, rabbit ears or an amplified indoor works just fine.

I'm so old, when I was a kid, all we HAD were antennas, so they do not seem that odd to me. Man, have I been passed by. Whew!

Our local stations are pretty good with OTA, and our OTA pictures are way better than HD Lite. If they give us local HDs on the satellite, I doubt I'll watch them, at least not unless they improve the picture. I guess it will depend on what bit rate they decide to push?

 

[ocnier]

It's simple really, to compete with cable, which is satellite's No.1 competitor. Nationwide OTA viewership is less than 20%, that leaves about 80% of 110 million households as potential customers. Simple economics would dictate they go after that 80% instead of the 20%.

You also forgot to mention that OTA is by definition much more suseptible to environmental factors. The simple fact is also stability of signal which for some reason nobody on this board seems to really harp about but which is none the less very important. I love my ota channels, but I welcome them through the sat dish from the very standpoint of stability of signal. The thing that I don't like is when the local station falls down on the job and doesn't put out all the HD feeds of show like NBC5i here in dallas (specifically the HD feed of SNL). This is where national coast feeds are awesome (I switch over to the east coast feed and whallah it's there in HD afterall), but I see where this is heading in the long run. It's going to force the TV stations to finally get thier sh*t together, but only after a lot of fighting between the consumer (with frustration) and provider.

 

[keenan]

You also forgot to mention that OTA is by definition much more suseptible to environmental factors.

Absolutely. Here in the SF bay area the FCC estimate of OTA viewers is around 9-12% and that number is easy to understand when you consider the terrain and the weather. I live 55mi from the tower and have spent over $1000 on OTA equipment and in the end it just turned out to be a waste of money as the terrain prevents any sort of reliable signal. Not to mention inversion layers and the like from weather. Folks within 20mi or less of the tower cannot even get a signal because of terrain. And this is with all stations at full power. I believe there is about a 90% plus penetration rate for cable in this area. DirecTV wants those customers. HD-LiL will allow them to go after them.

I can see why folks in areas that are reasonably flat would wonder why more people don't go with OTA, but just take a look at a map of places lake SF, Seattle, Salt Lake City or even New York City, all areas with diverse terrain and you'll see why it's not even an option.

 

[JustBob]

You also forgot to mention that OTA is by definition much more suseptible to environmental factors.

I don't agree with that statement. I believe you're talking about interference from bad weather and such. I've never had a problem with my OTA HD channels. My DirecTV will have problems about twice a year from severe weather. When that happens, my OTA channels have usually been fine. Perhaps DirecTV reception in the North (WI) is more prone to weather issues because the inclination angle to the satellites is lower so the signal has to travel through more of the atmosphere. Whereas antenna reception doesn't care where in the world you are, just what's between you and the transmitter.

-JustBob

 

[hdtvtechno]

And to confirm this to everyone

Directv has updated the HD website with info LonghornXP has posted in this thread

(Taken from the Directv website) Example

Please note, that in the near future, DIRECTV will be launching new state-of-the-art satellites to deliver HD local channel feeds from additional markets. When local HD channels launch in your market, you may no longer be able to see the New York and Los Angeles programming feeds, and a new dish and HD receiver will be required to see your local market HD channels.

 

[vinnyv07]

You also forgot to mention that OTA is by definition much more suseptible to environmental factors. The simple fact is also stability of signal which for some reason nobody on this board seems to really harp about but which is none the less very important. I love my ota channels, but I welcome them through the sat dish from the very standpoint of stability of signal.

In a bad rainstorm my OTA signal is more stable than my sat dish. I do have a 95 and above sig from my dish but still, when it rains hard I usually go to my OTA sig. But I understand it has to do with the area that you live and your distance from the towers that transmit the OTA. Given the choice I will always watch OTA local ch's than the locals that are piped through my sat dish.

 

[LonghornXP]

And to confirm this to everyone

Directv has updated the HD website with info LonghornXP has posted in this thread

This happens to be a case when I wish I was proved wrong if you know what I mean.

 

[keenan]

This happens to be a case when I wish I was proved wrong if you know what I mean.

I don't think it was ever a question of if they would cut them off, but when. The quoted text above says "may" not "will". DirecTV will have a serious customer relations problem if they cut the O&O DNS feeds to HD-TiVo owners before there is a an HD-DVR MPEG4 alternative.

I know for me if they cut those feeds prior to a replacement HD-DVR DirecTV's value to me will be cut by more than 50%. With ST over by that time it would easily be enough to dump the service.

 

[LonghornXP]

I don't think it was ever a question of if they would cut them off, but when. The quoted text above says "may" not "will". DirecTV will have a serious customer relations problem if they cut the O&O DNS feeds to HD-TiVo owners before there is a an HD-DVR MPEG4 alternative.

I know for me if they cut those feeds prior to a replacement HD-DVR DirecTV's value to me will be cut by more than 50%. With ST over by that time it would easily be enough to dump the service.

They will "not" shut them off until customers with an HD Tivo can get an HD DVR replacement. The point I was making more than anything was that customers will soon be able to get a nearby markets HD locals until their market gets their locals in HD.

 

[Greg Bimson]

I don't think it was ever a question of if they would cut them off, but when. The quoted text above says "may" not "will". DirecTV will have a serious customer relations problem if they cut the O&O DNS feeds to HD-TiVo owners before there is a an HD-DVR MPEG4 alternative.

I know for me if they cut those feeds prior to a replacement HD-DVR DirecTV's value to me will be cut by more than 50%. With ST over by that time it would easily be enough to dump the service.

But remember, the power for keeping the blanket waivers for the DNS HD feeds rests solely with the network. Once a network rescinds their waiver, DirecTV has no say. This isn't something DirecTV can provide without the help of the networks.

 

[keenan]

They will "not" shut them off until customers with an HD Tivo can get an HD DVR replacement. The point I was making more than anything was that customers will soon be able to get a nearby markets HD locals until their market gets their locals in HD.

But remember, the power for keeping the blanket waivers for the DNS HD feeds rests solely with the network. Once a network rescinds their waiver, DirecTV has no say. This isn't something DirecTV can provide without the help of the networks.

I agree with both comments.

LonghornXP, my response was to a response you made to hdtvtechno in which he quotes a DirecTV page that he seems to imply would shut the feeds off immediately when HD LiL became available which has been shown by you and others not to be true. DirecTV can if they want but you have said that they won't. This is good news.

Greg Bimson, absolutely, because the network O&O feeds are a private business agreement between the networks and DirecTV it depends on what that agreement says as to when the feeds will be shut off. The FCC has nothing to do with. There is no law that says those types of DNS feeds must be shut off when HD LiL becomes available.

It's nice to all be in agreement, afterall, it is Friday morning.

I think DirecTV will be inclined to leave them up until a DVR replacement is available as LonghornXP suggest they will do. OTOH, the networks have no concern whether a sub has a DVR or not and may force DirecTV to pull the plug early. I think individually waivered stations probably will be pulled early. We have a sub in the SF bay area that has a waiver for a station that is only good until 12/31/05 based on the fact that DirecTV would have HD LiL up and running here by that time. I have no doubt that he will lose that feed on that date, or close to it as the station was reluctant to give the waiver in the first place. I'm sure there will be different scenarios for different areas depending on O&O and independent status. Hopefully for all, we will keep the feeds as long as needed.

 

[LonghornXP]

I agree with both comments.

LonghornXP, my response was to a response you made to hdtvtechno in which he quotes a DirecTV page that he seems to imply would shut the feeds off immediately when HD LiL became available which has been shown by you and others not to be true. DirecTV can if they want but you have said that they won't. This is good news.

Greg Bimson, absolutely, because the network O&O feeds are a private business agreement between the networks and DirecTV it depends on what that agreement says as to when the feeds will be shut off. The FCC has nothing to do with. There is no law that says those types of DNS feeds must be shut off when HD LiL becomes available.

It's nice to all be in agreement, afterall, it is Friday morning.

I think DirecTV will be inclined to leave them up until a DVR replacement is available as LonghornXP suggest they will do. OTOH, the networks have no concern whether a sub has a DVR or not and may force DirecTV to pull the plug early. I think individually waivered stations probably will be pulled early. We have a sub in the SF bay area that has a waiver for a station that is only good until 12/31/05 based on the fact that DirecTV would have HD LiL up and running here by that time. I have no doubt that he will lose that feed on that date, or close to it as the station was reluctant to give the waiver in the first place. I'm sure there will be different scenarios for different areas depending on O&O and independent status. Hopefully for all, we will keep the feeds as long as needed.

DirecTVs contract states that they can provide those feeds even if they have HD locals available as long as every customer within that market hasn't been given a chance to upgrade yet. DirecTV doesn't consider an HD Tivo user as upgradeable until an HD DVR replacement is available and that customer had enough notice to get the upgrades. Also if delays occur don't think that DirecTV can't get a three month extension because they can and with ease I might add.