MLB 2011 Season
- Thread starter Ramy
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 1K
- Views 94K
- Status
It's really a shame in what has become of Manny. In his prime, I would've taken him over any other current player including A-Rod in a crucial game to get a hit. He was, at one time, one of the most feared hitters in the game. And to think, if he actually took himself seriously, it's scary to think what he may have accomplished on top of the career he's already had.
It is sad. The most disappointing thing is that he got busted once and KNEW the rules were in place, and still decided to break the rules. IF he would have had that one f***-up, I would say he would be in. But now.... I doubt it.
And to think, if he wasn't taking PED's, he probably wouldn't have had the career he had.
Sandra
And to think, if he wasn't taking PED's, he probably wouldn't have had the career he had.
Sandra
I'm pretty sure more players were taking PED's in that era than not, so we can't really use that disclaimer anymore. Pitchers were probably taking them too, so it's all relative.
Found an interesting article today:
MLB Trade Talk: Did the Marlins Get the Better End of '05 Trade With Red Sox?
By Tony Capobianco
(Featured Columnist) on April 8, 2011 - Florida
It's been five years since the big trade of the 2005 offseason, in which the Florida Marlins sent starting ace Josh Beckett and third baseman Mike Lowell to the Boston Red Sox in exchange for prospects Anibal Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez.
However, which team got the better end of the deal?
The Florida Marlins?
It sounds weird if you're a Red Sox fan, but if one were to analyze the deal, it might be possible.
It is, after all, a very easy trade to analyze, since it's batter-pitcher for batter-pitcher.
Let's start with the Boston Red Sox.
Third baseman Mike Lowell gave the Sox four full seasons and one season as a bench player in 2010.
In those four seasons, Lowell ranged from 17 to 21 home runs and 70-80 RBI. He hit more than 80 RBI once (120), in the same season in which he touched .300 once (.324)—that is, in 2007, when he was dubbed the World Series MVP.
That was arguably his best season, better than any year he had in Florida.
In 2007, he won 20 games and had an ERA of 3.27, while going 200 innings for the second time in his career for the world champions, the Boston Red Sox.
Other than that, he's had an ERA in the fives on two occasions in 2006 and 2007, to go alongside his two seasons with an ERA in the threes.
Simply put, he has been an on and off kind of guy.
The Marlins, on the other hand, got arguably the best young player in baseball in shortstop Hanley Ramirez.
In the leadoff position, he has given the Marlins similar power numbers to Mike Lowell.
In his rookie year, for example, Hanley hit .292 with 17 home runs and 59 RBI as a leadoff man to win the Rookie of the Year award.
In the four years after that, he ranged from 21 to 33 home runs and 106 RBI, always hitting over .300 with one season in which he hit .342 to win the batting title. That is, 2009.
Anibal Sanchez went 10-3 with a 2.83 ERA in his rookie season, in which he threw a no hitter against the Arizona Diamondbacks.
However, he struggled with injuries in 2007 and 2008 before he came back in 2009 with a 4-8 record, but still had a 3.87 ERA that year.
Last season, he started in 32 games—the most in his career.
He went 13-12 with a 3.55 ERA.
During those five years, it was clearly a great trade for both teams.
Now, in 2011, with Lowell gone and Beckett coming off a 2010 season in which he went 6-6 with a 5.78 ERA in 21 starts, and Sanchez now part of a solid rotation on a team built around Hanley Ramirez in Florida, it looks like the Marlins have the better end of the trade after all.
All they're missing is a ring.
MLB Trade Talk: Did the Marlins Get the Better End of '05 Trade With Red Sox? | Bleacher Report
MLB Trade Talk: Did the Marlins Get the Better End of '05 Trade With Red Sox?
By Tony Capobianco
(Featured Columnist) on April 8, 2011 - Florida
It's been five years since the big trade of the 2005 offseason, in which the Florida Marlins sent starting ace Josh Beckett and third baseman Mike Lowell to the Boston Red Sox in exchange for prospects Anibal Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez.
However, which team got the better end of the deal?
The Florida Marlins?
It sounds weird if you're a Red Sox fan, but if one were to analyze the deal, it might be possible.
It is, after all, a very easy trade to analyze, since it's batter-pitcher for batter-pitcher.
Let's start with the Boston Red Sox.
Third baseman Mike Lowell gave the Sox four full seasons and one season as a bench player in 2010.
In those four seasons, Lowell ranged from 17 to 21 home runs and 70-80 RBI. He hit more than 80 RBI once (120), in the same season in which he touched .300 once (.324)—that is, in 2007, when he was dubbed the World Series MVP.
That was arguably his best season, better than any year he had in Florida.
In 2007, he won 20 games and had an ERA of 3.27, while going 200 innings for the second time in his career for the world champions, the Boston Red Sox.
Other than that, he's had an ERA in the fives on two occasions in 2006 and 2007, to go alongside his two seasons with an ERA in the threes.
Simply put, he has been an on and off kind of guy.
The Marlins, on the other hand, got arguably the best young player in baseball in shortstop Hanley Ramirez.
In the leadoff position, he has given the Marlins similar power numbers to Mike Lowell.
In his rookie year, for example, Hanley hit .292 with 17 home runs and 59 RBI as a leadoff man to win the Rookie of the Year award.
In the four years after that, he ranged from 21 to 33 home runs and 106 RBI, always hitting over .300 with one season in which he hit .342 to win the batting title. That is, 2009.
Anibal Sanchez went 10-3 with a 2.83 ERA in his rookie season, in which he threw a no hitter against the Arizona Diamondbacks.
However, he struggled with injuries in 2007 and 2008 before he came back in 2009 with a 4-8 record, but still had a 3.87 ERA that year.
Last season, he started in 32 games—the most in his career.
He went 13-12 with a 3.55 ERA.
During those five years, it was clearly a great trade for both teams.
Now, in 2011, with Lowell gone and Beckett coming off a 2010 season in which he went 6-6 with a 5.78 ERA in 21 starts, and Sanchez now part of a solid rotation on a team built around Hanley Ramirez in Florida, it looks like the Marlins have the better end of the trade after all.
All they're missing is a ring.
MLB Trade Talk: Did the Marlins Get the Better End of '05 Trade With Red Sox? | Bleacher Report
There is truth in your statement, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no idea what Manny's career numbers may have been had he not taken PED's. And as always the question goes beyond comparing him to players in his own era, in baseball stats are compared to players in other eras too.
Manny got caught. Period. Others MAY have been using PED's...Manny was DEFINITELY using PED's.
Same goes for A-Rod, Palmeiro, etc. They got caught.
Sandra
There is truth in your statement, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no idea what Manny's career numbers may have been had he not taken PED's. And as always the question goes beyond comparing him to players in his own era, in baseball stats are compared to players in other eras too.
Manny got caught. Period. Others MAY have been using PED's...Manny was DEFINITELY using PED's.
Same goes for A-Rod, Palmeiro, etc. They got caught.
Sandra
You cannot ASSUME he would have done worse because nobody knows when he DID start using it. And it's a useless debate because NOBODY knows other than the player himself.
GREAT to see the Orioles and the Indians still in 1st place. It might be short lived... but nice to see.
There is truth in your statement, but that doesn't change the fact that we have no idea what Manny's career numbers may have been had he not taken PED's. And as always the question goes beyond comparing him to players in his own era, in baseball stats are compared to players in other eras too.
Manny got caught. Period. Others MAY have been using PED's...Manny was DEFINITELY using PED's.
Same goes for A-Rod, Palmeiro, etc. They got caught.
Sandra
What if the baseball wasn't wound as tightly as it used to be? What if MLB'ers were allowed to use metal bats? What if aliens came down and implanted PED's in Manny's butt? What if? What if? What if? What if I were to tell you that given everything I know about PED's, I'd still say Manny Ramirez was the best talent I've seen in the last 30 years.
This goes back to my comment where I stated steroids does not add talent. There are more than half of the players in the Mitchell report PROVES that. For every Manny, Barry and Roger.... there are 3 or 4 more Randy Velardes, Hal Morrises and Ricky Bones.....
Yeah, I hear ya...all fair points. But just like in a court of law when there are a whole bunch of accusations and stories flying around, the judge will always get back to the facts. The FACTS are that Manny Ramirez tested positive for PED's. The rest is all pure speculation and subjective opinion.
Is some of it true? Maybe...probably to some extent...nobody knows. Everyone can have an opinion, but that does not make it a FACT. Did Manny test positive for PED's? DEFINITELY...TWICE. That's a fact.
Look, I'm not saying that he's not an amazing hitter, and that without steroids he would hit as well as you guys. Thats's silly. But I am saying that you now have to wonder how much of his stats are PED-related. That is all.
Sandra
Last edited:
SandraC said:
You can make an argument for power number... But you cannot anything as far as average and OBP.
Potentially three times. Wasn't Manny's name allegedly on that secret '03 anonymous testing list??
Allegedly yes...but I'm sticking with FACTS here Cosmo!
For a FACT he was caught twice.
Sandra
The Marlins have made 0 playoff appearances since the trade- the Red Sox got players that sparked them to a World Series.
Yes, the Marlins have done well with the players they got, but they have yet to play in the postseason with Hanley/Johnson/Stanton.
Yes, the Marlins have done well with the players they got, but they have yet to play in the postseason with Hanley/Johnson/Stanton.
If I'm starting a team tomorrow, I pick Joe Mauer, Hanley Ramirez or Felix Hernandez... Hanley is that big of a talent, and I HATED that the Sox had to include him in a trade. That being said, the Red Sox DON'T win the '07 World Series without EITHER Beckett or Lowell.
IMO, there was no winner in that trade.
- Status
