Barry Bonds

[Purogamer]

Well he also doesn't say he hasn't molested children, does that mean he may have done that too?

Since when does hitting HR's require great power or great reflexes? Anyone in the world can hit a HR, it's about geometry. You hit the ball at the right time, with the right part of the bat, and anyone can put it over the wall. Look at the pitchers who hit HR's, look at the way opposite field HR's are hit off the bat, it's not power, it's geometry.

For a guy who's taking roids to hit HR's, he sure does hit a lot of singles doesn't he? They have a special shift for barry for christ's sake, a "Softball" shift i've heard it called. I guess he juices up in the dugout between at-bats or something...

 

[salsadancer7]

Well he also doesn't say he hasn't molested children, does that mean he may have done that too?

Since when does hitting HR's require great power or great reflexes? Anyone in the world can hit a HR, it's about geometry. You hit the ball at the right time, with the right part of the bat, and anyone can put it over the wall. Look at the pitchers who hit HR's, look at the way opposite field HR's are hit off the bat, it's not power, it's geometry.

For a guy who's taking roids to hit HR's, he sure does hit a lot of singles doesn't he? They have a special shift for barry for christ's sake, a "Softball" shift i've heard it called. I guess he juices up in the dugout between at-bats or something...

When was the last time you played baseball? How high of a competition level? It takes strength to hit home runs.....bat speed. The strongest home run hitters had very strong wrist and a good rotation of the hips, where the 2nd level of power comes from....so geometry has some to do with it, but not enough. Because if you have no strength to generate bat speed....you are warning track power at best, regardless of whether you hit it on the sweet spot or not.....so you are a tad off. I played college baseball and been coaching high school ball for almost 15 years.

 

[Peter Parker]

No one has accused him of molesting children. Your arguments get more and more ridiculous. BTW Bonds does not hit that many singles. And if you can't see how strength ties into hitting home runs well this really is pointless.

 

[Purogamer]

Well of course he's got strength. You don't get to the MLB without being a good hitting ball player. But to suggest that he only hits all these HR's because of steroids is absurd. He's always been a good hitter, and he's always had power. A lot of guys have had surges, and a lot of guys have made changes and seen great results without being accused of taking steroids.

I'm just sick of hearing about it already. You'd think he got got caught flushing steroids down the lockerroom toilet the way he's being scrutinized...

 

[Peter Parker]

He only had that kind of power during a window of time. No one BTW had had a surge like that one. Yes he was a good hitter before that. As I said earlier he might have hit 600 without all this we will never know.

What you seem unwilling to accept here is that Bonds has actually admitted taking steroids. He has simply said that he did not know that is what it was. And hisHR production dropped considerably after testing began. You can believe whayt you want I suppose but you can't expect the rest of us to buy the story after Bonds has already admitted it.

 

[salsadancer7]

He only had that kind of power during a window of time. No one BTW had had a surge like that one. Yes he was a good hitter before that. As I said earlier he might have hit 600 without all this we will never know.

What you seem unwilling to accept here is that Bonds has actually admitted taking steroids. He has simply said that he did not know that is what it was. And hisHR production dropped considerably after testing began. You can believe whayt you want I suppose but you can't expect the rest of us to buy the story after Bonds has already admitted it.

Look....until I see a positive test or his testimony stating that he said he took 'roids, everything he has done is legit. Do I think he took 'roids? YES. But until then, he is innocent until proven guilty...the way it is supposed to be.

 

[HCI]

He only had that kind of power during a window of time. No one BTW had had a surge like that one. Yes he was a good hitter before that. As I said earlier he might have hit 600 without all this we will never know.

What you seem unwilling to accept here is that Bonds has actually admitted taking steroids. He has simply said that he did not know that is what it was. And hisHR production dropped considerably after testing began. You can believe whayt you want I suppose but you can't expect the rest of us to buy the story after Bonds has already admitted it.

Lets for a minute go outside of hitting and look at pitching. One of the greatest pitchers of all time Nolan Ryan did not have his first of 7 no hitters until he was 8 years into his career. He throw 2 in 2 months then throw 1 each of the 2 seasons following that. That sounds like a surge right? He throw his next in 1981 6 years after his 4th, then he did not throw another one for 9 years in 1990 when he was 43 then one the following year in 1991 at the age of 44, which seems like another surge. This seems it is possible.

At the end of his career he was still throwing well over 200 strikeouts and was doing it in the same amount or less games than what it took him to get 200 in previous years.

1975 28 games 186 strikeouts
1978 31 games 260 strikeouts
1979 34 games 223 strikeouts
1980 35 games 200 strikeouts
1982 35 games 245 strikeouts
1986 30 games 194 strikeouts
1987 34 games 270 strikeouts
1988 33 games 228 strikeouts
1989 32 games 301 strikeouts
1990 30 games 232 strikeouts
1991 27 games 203 strikeouts

I know he had his best years in between these numbers but I just wanted to highlight his 200 strikeout years and the final years.

 

[TheTimm]

Nolan Ryan = steroid freak? Say it ain't so, No'.

 

[Purogamer]

Well, I've never heard Nolan accused of it but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Also wouldn't change my opinion of the guy at all. If he's willing to sacrifice his health for the game, who are we to chastise him? No one can say they didn't know what steroids would do to them in terms of negative effects, they willingly do it and there's no reason why we should be trying to hold guys who admit to it to a different standard than guys who are lying about it...

I'm hearing more and more rumbling about how unfair it is for guys who have had lasik surgery. Just how far do we take this "level playing field" conversation? Ban lasik? Require everyone to wear coke bottle glasses? Same Haircuts? Same Uniform materials/cuts? Same flavor of chaw in the dugout??

 

[Peter Parker]

Yes lasik is comparable to steroids. And the only question with steroids is whether the player knows about potentially negative effects on his health. Also the best way to make a point about hitting is to discuss pitching.

That makes sense.

 

[Peter Parker]

Look....until I see a positive test or his testimony stating that he said he took 'roids, everything he has done is legit. Do I think he took 'roids? YES. But until then, he is innocent until proven guilty...the way it is supposed to be.

At no point have I said that his home runs should be thrown out or that he should be banned from baseball. What I have said is that the evidence of his taking steroids (including his own comments) are overwhelming, that steroid use is likely to enahance physical strength and increase home run production, that beating the single season and career home run records is a significant inducement (it was claimed that it was not) and that even passing Babe Ruth into second place is.

I have also said that without steroids he would have been a likely hall of famer perhaps hitting 600 home runs which would put him into a pretty elite group. (Only Aaron Ruth and Mays did that before him).


as for innocent until proven guilty there is not currently a charge. There is justa cloud over his accomplishments which is a sad thing.

 

[Purogamer]

It's getting boring, the "Bonds admitted it" when he has done no such thing...

He only had that kind of power during a window of time. No one BTW had had a surge like that one.

Bonds hit 49 HR's, then hit 73 the next season, for an increase of 149%. Excuse me, 73*

Maris hit 39 HR's, then hit 61 the next season, for an increase of 156%. I guess SOMEONE had a surge like that, and I'm sure through the history of baseball we've seen guys with bigger percentage gains than that from season to season, but hey, Barry's guilty in your eyes no matter what evidence is presented, so fine. He's a huge roid freak and his numbers are solely due to that.

That's what you want to hear, so you got it. Hope when his nuts fall off they land on first base...in HD...

 

[vurbano]

You'd think he got got caught flushing steroids down the lockerroom toilet the way he's being scrutinized...

Id say its worse than that if records of his drug use were found at the Balco Labs raid as reported.

 

[Purogamer]

Well if any of that is ever proven fine, but we're still talking about bonds when Jason Grimsley seems to be the story. And you wonder why some people call it a witch hunt...

 

[salsadancer7]

Well if any of that is ever proven fine, but we're still talking about bonds when Jason Grimsley seems to be the story. And you wonder why some people call it a witch hunt...

Yep! I mean I by no way am a Bonds fan...I met the personality lacking bastard when I use to work in Sports media in Chicago....but now you have another person caught, a pitcher no less...and they still someone tied in Barry Bond on Sportcenter.

 

[Peter Parker]

Maris' increase occurred at an earlier age----and after a significant expansion that diluted the pitching talent and an increase in the length of the schedule from 154 to 162 games. Maris was not the only slugger to experience a significant increase in his home run total that year. You also neglect to mention that Maris was a full 10 years younger in 1961 than Bonds was when hit 73. If the discussion is about how unusual a llate career surge of this magnitude it is hard to ignore that part of the picture.

Again, at this point, Bonds no longer denies using steroids during that period. He claims only that he had no knowledge that what he was given contained steroids. In light of that it seems pointless to contend that he did not use them or that the surge in performance is just a coincidence.

As for Grimsley he should not have used growth hormones. There does seem to be a fair amount of discussion in the media about that . as for the thred it is about Bonds and the recent achievement of passing Babe Ruth focused attention on him.

 

[brainiac]

Again, at this point, Bonds no longer denies using steroids during that period. He claims only that he had no knowledge that what he was given contained steroids. In light of that it seems pointless to contend that he did not use them or that the surge in performance is just a coincidence.

Another false statement. This is from the SF Chronicle's account of the leaked grand jury testimony:

"Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned.

But Bonds said he had no knowledge of the doping calendars and other records that indicated he had used banned drugs. He said he had never paid Anderson for steroids and had never knowingly used them.

And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson wouldn't jeopardize our friendship' by doing that."

How is that no longer denying it, and where has he said anything differently? Where has he said, "Okay, I now know that what Greg gave me were steroids, but I didn't know it then." On another point, it's just amazing to me that Luis Gonzalez managed to stay under the radar for so long. His jump from 31 to 57 homers and his subsequent decline was even more outrageous than what Bonds did.

 

[Peter Parker]

The statement i have made consistently is that Bonds no longer denies taking steroids. I stand by that. In fact your quote basically confirms that. It is not a denial. It is a fairly carefully crafted statement that says only that he claims not to have knowingly taken steroids----not an outright denial----and I referenced the same statement myself.


As for Mr. gonzalez I am not that familiar with his career. But what dies that have to do with Bonds? perhaps h too used steroids--or perhaps not ----but neither situation would prove or disprove anything about Bonds.

 

[brainiac]

The statement i have made sconsistently is that Bonds no longer denies taking steroids. I sand by tha. In fact your quote basically confirms that. It is not a denial. It is a fairly carefully crafted statement. .


As for Mr. gonzalez I am not that familiar with his career. But what dies that have to do with Bonds? perhaps h too used steroids--or perhaps not ----but neither situation would prove or disprove anything about Bonds.

My quote doesn't confirm that - it confirms that he hasn't admitted anything of the sort. If he'd admitted to using the steroids, do you think a grand jury would be wasting their time just to find out when he knew it? If he'd already admitted it, why is baseball conducting their "investigation?" You say it's not a denial. Well, it sure isn't an admission! Show me one instance of where he's said that he now knows that he was using steroids.

I bring up Gonzalez because it has everything to do with the Bonds case. Gonzalez had his big jump in 2001, just as Bonds did. Why isn't baseball on his behind like they are with Bonds? If baseball and the Feds were serious about getting to the bottom of the steroids and HGH scandal, they would be going after everyone who put up suspicious numbers, including pitchers, beginning in the mid-90's. According to reports, even the Jason Grimsley revelations came out as a result of the Feds trying to get just Bonds.

 

[Peter Parker]

Again I never made the statement that he has said that he HAS used them. I said he no longer denies it. Your statement does confirm that.

As for Gonzalez I do not know much about his case. For all I know MLB is looking at him.

In Grimsleyu's case I sometimes read that it is part of "getting" Bonds and sometimes part of a larger probe. But there have certainly been prosecutions of individuals other than Barry Bonds.