Zero Quality Signal--Have tried everything I can
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Followup on Motorized dish installation
Hello all,
I hope you all had a happy Easter and I do appreciate all the help every one of you has taken time and effort to give.
As of now, I have the dish attached without the motor, pointed to 97 West, and receiving a strong signal. I would like to take the final leap and attach the motor. To that end, I have been reading all your posts, and the outstanding treatise posted several months ago AcWxRadar. I understand the basic idea, but have a few questions:
[1] Why is it so important to set the motorized dish to True South? For me, that is SatMex 5 (I am in San Diego, latitude 33, longitude 117 west, magnetic declination +12). This satellite, according to the List, has few channels that I can receive and only one strong transponder with no channels. So, what would happen if I used 97 West to align the dish and motor?
[2] The manufacturer instructions state I should set the "declination" (which is really the elevation) to around 25 degrees. What exactly is this supposed to achieve? Is it supposed to be close to my True South Satellite once mounted? I understand the reason for setting longitude, but how/why do they know what the dish elevation should be to acquire satellites?
[3] After reading the treatise from AcWxRadar, do I have to "realign" the hanging motor pole, since I have played with it and moved it all over the place? How do I do that?
[4] Lastly, the SonicView Premier 360 has half a sentence about using USALS. I have no idea what to do once I get set up. Can somebody tell me what I need to do on the menu of the STB? I attach some screenshots of the menu.
Please if you can, explain the various commands of "motor" and "USALS", and when and how I would use them.
Thank you all again, and hope to try this soon once I get the magnetic angle finder (inclinometer). I am indebted to you all and will let you know how it goes.
Hello all,
I hope you all had a happy Easter and I do appreciate all the help every one of you has taken time and effort to give.
As of now, I have the dish attached without the motor, pointed to 97 West, and receiving a strong signal. I would like to take the final leap and attach the motor. To that end, I have been reading all your posts, and the outstanding treatise posted several months ago AcWxRadar. I understand the basic idea, but have a few questions:
[1] Why is it so important to set the motorized dish to True South? For me, that is SatMex 5 (I am in San Diego, latitude 33, longitude 117 west, magnetic declination +12). This satellite, according to the List, has few channels that I can receive and only one strong transponder with no channels. So, what would happen if I used 97 West to align the dish and motor?
[2] The manufacturer instructions state I should set the "declination" (which is really the elevation) to around 25 degrees. What exactly is this supposed to achieve? Is it supposed to be close to my True South Satellite once mounted? I understand the reason for setting longitude, but how/why do they know what the dish elevation should be to acquire satellites?
[3] After reading the treatise from AcWxRadar, do I have to "realign" the hanging motor pole, since I have played with it and moved it all over the place? How do I do that?
[4] Lastly, the SonicView Premier 360 has half a sentence about using USALS. I have no idea what to do once I get set up. Can somebody tell me what I need to do on the menu of the STB? I attach some screenshots of the menu.
Please if you can, explain the various commands of "motor" and "USALS", and when and how I would use them.
Thank you all again, and hope to try this soon once I get the magnetic angle finder (inclinometer). I am indebted to you all and will let you know how it goes.
Attachments
1) True South is important because it is the highest point of the satellite arc. Imagine a rainbow that rises from your Southeast, reaches its highest point due South of your position (True South), then curves back to the horizon at your Southwest. That is what the orbital positions of the satellites would look like if we could see them. So, when your motor is at '0', the dish is pointed at the highest point in the arc, which, if aligned properly, should be at your True South.
There is a way to align the motor using a satellite other than the one due South of you. This is helpful also for those people who do not have a satellite at their True South. This method involves using USALS to control your motor, entering your latitude and longitude, and setting up on a satellite other than your True South satellite. The motor will move to where it should be for the satellite you choose, then you adjust the dish until you get quality on that satellite. You should then be aligned to the arc.
For example, I live at 90.1W longitude. The closest satellite to my True South is 91W, but instead I want to set up my motorized dish using 97W. I go into my receivers set-up menu, select 97W, set my motor option to USALS, and enter my latitude (30N) and longitude (90.1W). The motor will then move from '0' (in my case, it will move West) until it reaches the the position it should be for 97W. Then I aim my dish until I am receiving 97W, and tighten everything down. My motorized dish should now be tracking the satellite arc.
2) There are two elevation settings--One on the motor bracket (set this on the latitude side of the scale, at your latitude, and lock it down). The elevation setting you will be able to tweak is the dish elevation (the 25 elevation you mentioned above). Don't trust the engraved scale on the dish. This can be off by 5 degrees or more, many dish scales are inaccurate. You will have to find the correct dish elevation by slowly moving the dish up or down until you get signal.
3) The important thing is to be certain the mounting pole is ABSOLUTELY LEVEL when the motor is on it. This is very important, as it affects how accurately the motor tracks the arc.
4) USALS is a function of the receiver that tells the motor how far to move East or West given your location by latitude and longitude. I don't have the SonicView, so I don't know how the menus are structured, but after selecting USALS, you should be prompted for your latitude and longitude. The receiver should remember that data for each satellite you set up using USALS.
EDIT: Regarding #4, from your pictures, it looks like you would select 'USALS' as you have in the second picture, then move down to latitude, enter your latitude, then down to longitude, and enter your longitude.
There is a way to align the motor using a satellite other than the one due South of you. This is helpful also for those people who do not have a satellite at their True South. This method involves using USALS to control your motor, entering your latitude and longitude, and setting up on a satellite other than your True South satellite. The motor will move to where it should be for the satellite you choose, then you adjust the dish until you get quality on that satellite. You should then be aligned to the arc.
For example, I live at 90.1W longitude. The closest satellite to my True South is 91W, but instead I want to set up my motorized dish using 97W. I go into my receivers set-up menu, select 97W, set my motor option to USALS, and enter my latitude (30N) and longitude (90.1W). The motor will then move from '0' (in my case, it will move West) until it reaches the the position it should be for 97W. Then I aim my dish until I am receiving 97W, and tighten everything down. My motorized dish should now be tracking the satellite arc.
2) There are two elevation settings--One on the motor bracket (set this on the latitude side of the scale, at your latitude, and lock it down). The elevation setting you will be able to tweak is the dish elevation (the 25 elevation you mentioned above). Don't trust the engraved scale on the dish. This can be off by 5 degrees or more, many dish scales are inaccurate. You will have to find the correct dish elevation by slowly moving the dish up or down until you get signal.
3) The important thing is to be certain the mounting pole is ABSOLUTELY LEVEL when the motor is on it. This is very important, as it affects how accurately the motor tracks the arc.
4) USALS is a function of the receiver that tells the motor how far to move East or West given your location by latitude and longitude. I don't have the SonicView, so I don't know how the menus are structured, but after selecting USALS, you should be prompted for your latitude and longitude. The receiver should remember that data for each satellite you set up using USALS.
EDIT: Regarding #4, from your pictures, it looks like you would select 'USALS' as you have in the second picture, then move down to latitude, enter your latitude, then down to longitude, and enter your longitude.
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TryingMyBest,
Tron hit on the major highlights of this question in his post. I could not state it any better as it is exactly as I see it.
There is one notion which will be important to you regarding your true south satellite (SatMex 5 @ 116.8°W). Since you have your motor removed and are aligning just the dish on the mast, you can determine a really exceptional reading of what your dish angle should be for your particular case (using the board across the face of the dish and the inclinometer). When you go back and re-install the motor, with the motor set to your latitude angle, then you can easily transfer that same angle (if you are still using the same satellite) in order to reset the dish elevation to make it read the same once again.
Using this satellite (SatMex 5) will keep your motor positioned at the zero degree or reference position when you check this angle. If you don't use the same satellite in this case, your motor will be moved away from the zero position and therefore the dish will not be perfecty vertical (it will be skewed somewhat, depending upon what satellite you dialed in). Then the reading you take with the inclinometer will no longer be useful.
In your case, with SatMex 5's orbital position (116.8°W) being so darned close to your longitude position (117.0°W) you are really lucky, so use this to your advantage as it will save you a lot of work in the long run. Also, I know that you can pick up the SatMex 5 Ku band signals where you are. Use the TPs that I mentioned in my earlier post (as I know that they are good signals to use and if they are strong for me, they should probably be even better for you).
When you get down to USALS setup, follow exactly what TRON stated for entries. That is all you really need to do. Then, when you set up the next satellite, all you have to do is tell the reeiver to use USALS for motor positioning on that new satellite (it will automatically transfer your lattitude and longitude information to the new or next satellite). It will automatically drive your motor to the proper position.
There is a chance that you may not track the arc absolutely perfect. This is often the case as hardly anyone ever really and truly gets that lucky. There are always slight amounts of error in any dish and motor setup that are not even the fault of the installer (yourself), they are just marginal errors in the fabrication of the assemblies. And, then there are errors in your own measurements, which may be very slight, but if they add up and compound eachother in the wrong direction, they can throw your tracking off as well. And, then... Don't forget that some transponders on the same satellite are not always transmitting with the same power level, so that can confuse a person, if they are expecting to see a 100% reading in signal quality across the board. That just isn't possible, unless you have a fisherman's signal meter (a "liar's" signal meter) LOL! That's a meter that reads higher than reality.
When you get to the point of tracking the arc and peaking and tweaking it to make it the best you can, remember that you have to make comprimises along the way. When you set up a single satellite, fixed point dish, you can optimize the signal quality from one individual satellite. With a motorized dish, this is not a realistic option. You have to cut some corners here and there and allow some sacrifices in the quality from some satellites in order to bring others up to an acceptable level. This is the time when you should be recording signal quality readings from various satellites across the arc and analyzing the data. Compare your results with those little pictorals that show which direction your dish is offset. It is good to make a project of it on graph paper so you can see a, well... graphical representation of your own systems' response.
The best way to do this is to not adjust anything, but to test all the satellites that you can receive and record the signal quality levels from several TPs on each satellite. Check both horizontal and vertical polarities if you can and check low quality, mid-range and high quality ones if possible. Then, plot these results on a graph. Next step, retrace all those TPs and gently pull the dish slightly up/down or right/left and note which way the dish has to move to improve the signal and draw arrows on the graph to indicate your findings. You don't need to be too extreme with this approach, that depends upon your own personality and how anal you want to be about it. If you can then see trends in which way your dish and motor are offset, then you can correct for these errors according to the pictorals instead of trying to peak one particular sat at a time. You must make adjustments that peak the entire arc and not just one individual satellite. If you are satisfied with your results "as-is", then there would be no need to expend the extra effort in this task.
Another procedure you should investigate is B.J.'s modified motor elevation (latitude) adjustment. This may help you considerably and save you some time and steps as it takes into account some adjustments that the motor and dish manufacturer's simply leave out of their equations as it is simpler to tell you in a manual to set your motor latitude to your site latitude and call that good enough.
Looking forward to seeing and hearing your results.
RADAR
TryingMyBest,
I need to add some information at this point so that you are not taken off-guard on a certain issue.
I own a SonicView 360 Premier receiver myself and I and Walrus1957 have both experimented with it.
We experienced some rather odd and disappointing results with USALS motor control with this receiver. I won't go into every detail, but I will summarize what we witnessed.
When the command to go to the reference position was selected, the motor would sometimes drive to a specific satellite position that was not at the reference position. Sometimes, when the command to drive the motor to a specific satellite position, it would either drive to the reference position or to another, totally unrelated satellite position. The USALS operation was not predictable for us and we tested the receiver independantly and found the same results.
When I started using DiSEqC 1.2 motor positioning to locate two or three or more satellites, then the USALS function seemed to become more accurate. This doesn not make any sense to me as the two different motor options should not be related in this manner, but it definitely appeared to be so.
This could have been software (firmware) related, so this problem may have since been corrected by updates, I don't know and cannot confirm if this is so.
But, I must inform you of this operation quirk in case you experience it, too. If you start detecting some of these wierd anomalies, don't let it frustrate you into thinking that you or your procedure is at fault.
Just keep this information in the back of your mind just in case it arises. If it does, try using DiSEqC 1.2 motor control for several satellites first and then recheck USALS operation and see if it improves.
I really thought that I should inform you of my own experience from five years ago or so, simply so that you won't be caught off guard.
RADAR
I need to add some information at this point so that you are not taken off-guard on a certain issue.
I own a SonicView 360 Premier receiver myself and I and Walrus1957 have both experimented with it.
We experienced some rather odd and disappointing results with USALS motor control with this receiver. I won't go into every detail, but I will summarize what we witnessed.
When the command to go to the reference position was selected, the motor would sometimes drive to a specific satellite position that was not at the reference position. Sometimes, when the command to drive the motor to a specific satellite position, it would either drive to the reference position or to another, totally unrelated satellite position. The USALS operation was not predictable for us and we tested the receiver independantly and found the same results.
When I started using DiSEqC 1.2 motor positioning to locate two or three or more satellites, then the USALS function seemed to become more accurate. This doesn not make any sense to me as the two different motor options should not be related in this manner, but it definitely appeared to be so.
This could have been software (firmware) related, so this problem may have since been corrected by updates, I don't know and cannot confirm if this is so.
But, I must inform you of this operation quirk in case you experience it, too. If you start detecting some of these wierd anomalies, don't let it frustrate you into thinking that you or your procedure is at fault.
Just keep this information in the back of your mind just in case it arises. If it does, try using DiSEqC 1.2 motor control for several satellites first and then recheck USALS operation and see if it improves.
I really thought that I should inform you of my own experience from five years ago or so, simply so that you won't be caught off guard.
RADAR
To add to what Tron said, when you are aligning on your true south sat, what you're doing is setting your declination. If you are at the top of the arc, after you set your motor's elevation, the peak signal when adjusting the dish elevation will give you the proper declination. If, however, you AREN'T aimed at your true south sat, it is possible to come up with the wrong declination, particularly if your mount isn't aimed south (the motor mount MUST be aimed south to track the arc properly). Ie a combination of incorrect declination and incorrect alignment of the motor mount can result in a peak signal if you aren't on your true south sat.
Again adding to what Tron said, I think an explanation of what declination is, is necessary. In general, what you do when you align a mount is to set the rotation axis of your motor "almost" parallel to the earth's polar axis. The sats are located in the earth's equatorial plane, and since most of us are located north of the equator, if your dish is mounted on a pole ~ parallel to the earth's axis, and looking perpendicular to that axis, as it rotates, it will sweep out a plane that is thousands of miles ABOVE the equatorial plane where the sats are. For your dish to see the sats, you need to aim your dish LOWER, by 4 to 6 degrees, to look down to that equatorial plane. This is the declination. And this declination is a NEGATIVE angle of about 4 to 6 degrees. You say above that this declination " is really the elevation". This isn't quite true. You are adjusting the declination with the dish elevation, but the dish elevation is NOT your declination. Your dish elevation is a positive number, not negative. There is no way to set a negative declination using dish elevation. However, with these small motorized dishes, you attach your dish to a BENT motor axis. In your case, it is bent down by 30 degrees. This gives you a declination of -30 degrees, which is too much, so to get the proper 4 to 6 degree declination, you have to add 24 to 26 degrees of dish elevation.
Now, Tron said to set your motor's elevation via the latitude scale to your latitude. While this is good enough for most people, it isn't the most accurate way to align the dish. It's better to use the so called modified declination, which is in effect using about 0.6 degrees less motor elevation (latitude setting about 0.6 degrees MORE than your actual latitude) _AND_ using 0.6 degrees less declination. This is because the declination of all the sats are different, and the sats to your extreme east/west are about 0.6 degrees less than sats to your south. So if you use the modified angles, you will track the arc better. However if this confuses you, just use your latitude. If you want a somewhat wierd graphical explanation of the modified declination technique, I've tried to draw some pictures of the cone shaped surface that your dish sweeps out when using declination.... see http://www.eskerridge.com/bj/sat/Modified-Declination.html
This might help some, or it might completely confuse you. I'm not much of an artist.
While this is very good advise, I always like to point out that it _IS_ possible to get perfect tracking of the arc with a tilted pole, but it isn't possible to track the arc if the motor and dish's weight is making the pole tilt to different amounts as the motor moves the dish. It's absolutely necessary to have a rigid pole, and it makes it MUCH easier if that rigid pole is plumb.
Heartfelt thank you to Tron, AcWxRadar, and BJ
I have read all your postings and thank you immensely for your sharing your time and knowledge. I will profess that I don't totally understand the reason for True South satellite being important, but I DO understand it is important and get the general idea. I learn more every day, and with a pretty solid math background, will one day delve into the details.
I will get the inclinometer tomorrow and give it a whirl over the weekend, then post back. I do have a few questions about some of the terms in the reply:
(1) What is the "reference position" I keep hearing and reading about? Is that the True South satellite?
(2) What is DiSEqc 1.2 motor control?
(3) What is "horizontal" and "vertical" frequency of a transponder (I've been meaning to ask that for a while, as I keep seeing it on the channel information)?
(4) AcWxRadar, what do you mean by "using the board across the face of the dish" in your instructions for using the inclinometer? Can you kindly post a drawing or picture, if words cannot describe it?
And lastly, thank you AcWxRadar for the warning about the SonicView Premier. I do have a SonicView Elite that I just got today for a second TV, so I will try driving the motor using that instead, once I set it up.
Thank you all again, and I will post back after playing with this over the weekend. One reason I always wanted to get into this was that given many years of college math classes, I felt it would be an interesting and practical application of knowledge that so far has not done produced much for me. I do indeed find that to be the case. I save all your responses and reread them when I can, so please know your time and efforts are most appreciated and helpful.
I have read all your postings and thank you immensely for your sharing your time and knowledge. I will profess that I don't totally understand the reason for True South satellite being important, but I DO understand it is important and get the general idea. I learn more every day, and with a pretty solid math background, will one day delve into the details.
I will get the inclinometer tomorrow and give it a whirl over the weekend, then post back. I do have a few questions about some of the terms in the reply:
(1) What is the "reference position" I keep hearing and reading about? Is that the True South satellite?
(2) What is DiSEqc 1.2 motor control?
(3) What is "horizontal" and "vertical" frequency of a transponder (I've been meaning to ask that for a while, as I keep seeing it on the channel information)?
(4) AcWxRadar, what do you mean by "using the board across the face of the dish" in your instructions for using the inclinometer? Can you kindly post a drawing or picture, if words cannot describe it?
And lastly, thank you AcWxRadar for the warning about the SonicView Premier. I do have a SonicView Elite that I just got today for a second TV, so I will try driving the motor using that instead, once I set it up.
Thank you all again, and I will post back after playing with this over the weekend. One reason I always wanted to get into this was that given many years of college math classes, I felt it would be an interesting and practical application of knowledge that so far has not done produced much for me. I do indeed find that to be the case. I save all your responses and reread them when I can, so please know your time and efforts are most appreciated and helpful.
Almost forgot
Do I need to somehow "center" the bent motor pole, since I previously moved it all over the place? If yes, how do I make sure it is where it needs to be? Or do I just acquire the True South satellite and all is well?
Thank you !
Do I need to somehow "center" the bent motor pole, since I previously moved it all over the place? If yes, how do I make sure it is where it needs to be? Or do I just acquire the True South satellite and all is well?
Thank you !
1) Reference position on a motor is '0', which should be True South if the dish and motor are aligned properly. Selecting "Go To Reference" from a receivers motor menu will drive the motor to the '0' position.
2) DiSEqC (which stands for Digital Satellite Equipment Control) 1.2 is a mode of motor operation in which you manually drive the motor East and West until you find the satellite you want, then program the motor itself to remember that position for that satellite. USALS, on the other hand, automatically drives the motor to where it should be for a given satellite using your latitude and longitude as reference.
3) Satellites have horizontally polarized and vertically polarized signals. Some channels are on horizontal transponders, some are on vertical ones. Basically, this is done to prevent adjacent signal interference. The receiver will automatically tell the LNB to switch to whatever polarity the channel you tune in is on.
Are you referring to the shaft on the motor where the dish attaches? If so, unless you reset the motor when it was not at '0' (or reference), the motor should still move to the correct position for the satellite you are setting up with USALS. I doubt you reset the motor, as that isn't something that can be done accidentally. You could always instruct the motor to "Go To Reference" (assuming the receiver has that as one of the menu options), and the motor should move to '0'.
If you are referring to the pole that the motor is mounted on, as long as the part of your pole where the motor is mounted is level you should be okay.
2) DiSEqC (which stands for Digital Satellite Equipment Control) 1.2 is a mode of motor operation in which you manually drive the motor East and West until you find the satellite you want, then program the motor itself to remember that position for that satellite. USALS, on the other hand, automatically drives the motor to where it should be for a given satellite using your latitude and longitude as reference.
3) Satellites have horizontally polarized and vertically polarized signals. Some channels are on horizontal transponders, some are on vertical ones. Basically, this is done to prevent adjacent signal interference. The receiver will automatically tell the LNB to switch to whatever polarity the channel you tune in is on.
Are you referring to the shaft on the motor where the dish attaches? If so, unless you reset the motor when it was not at '0' (or reference), the motor should still move to the correct position for the satellite you are setting up with USALS. I doubt you reset the motor, as that isn't something that can be done accidentally. You could always instruct the motor to "Go To Reference" (assuming the receiver has that as one of the menu options), and the motor should move to '0'.
If you are referring to the pole that the motor is mounted on, as long as the part of your pole where the motor is mounted is level you should be okay.
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TryingMyBest,
Good morning again. To answer your questions:
(1) What is the "reference position" I keep hearing and reading about? Is that the True South satellite?
A: The reference position or "zero degree" position refers to the location of the motor tube. If you look at the underside of your motor, you will see a scale marked off in degrees from something like +60 to ZERO to -60 or similar. The center position is where this scale reads ZERO and that is the reference position. It is like HOME to the motor and it is programmed into the motor's memory (from the factory). The motor will drive to this position if your receiver sends a specific command (such as "GO TO REFERENCE" or "GO TO ZERO" - how this command is stated or phrased may vary from receiver to receiver. The motor uses that position to determine the position of all other satellites, it has to have a starting point and hence, this is the REFERENCE position.
(2) What is DiSEqc 1.2 motor control?
A: DiSEqC 1.2 is a protocol or "language" if you will, that your reeiver uses to send commands to the motor. In DiSEqC 1.2 motor control, the receiver sends commands digitally in this language or protocol to tell it to move west, move east and how many steps to move or even to move to the reference position. When you move the motor to a certain position this way and you locate a satellite, you can SAVE that position into memory.
Your motor already has a stored list of satellite positions from the factory (just like the HOME or reference position). But, if you locate one of those satellites by driving the dish around via the DiSEqC 1.2 menu commands and you SAVE/STORE that position, it overwites the factory programmed location and stores your new location for that satellite. You can go back to that newly saved satellite position any time you bring it up in your list.
NOTE: The factory stored positions always remain available within the motor, but you have to perform a RESET of your motor to get them to default back to those positions, which essentially erases any positions that you SAVED and STORED yourself.
USALS motor control also uses DiSEqC 1.2 protocol, but in a slightly different way. USALS actually uses your latitude and longitude coordinates and the satellite's orbital location to CALCULATE the DiSEqC COMMAND to send to the motor to tell it to go to that satellite. Nothing other than the factory satellite list is stored in the motor. The information that you need to make the calculations (latitude, longitude and sat orbital degree) is all stored within your receiver.
(3) What is "horizontal" and "vertical" frequency of a transponder (I've been meaning to ask that for a while, as I keep seeing it on the channel information)?
A: Envision a sine wave. Oscillating up and down and drawn out across a piece of paper from left to right. Pick up the paper, hold it on edge and look at the right end of the piece of paper where the sine wave would be eminating from so that it looks like the sine wave is coming right off the end of the paper and hitting you between the eyes (you will be looking at the thin edge of the paper). Hold the paper up skyward as if the satellite was on the other end of the paper. This would be a vertical polarized signal.
Lay the paper over flat or 90 degrees from where it was and now you see the sine wave going back and forth from left to right. This would be like a horizontal polarized signal.
It is pretty simplistic. A vertical polarized signal is oscillating in a vertical plane (up and down) and the horizontal is oscillating left and right.
Why do they do this? Because you can fit twice as many channels on one transponder by utilizing the two polarities and the interference between the two will be minimized (or nil) when they are offset 90 degrees like this.
Keep this information in mind when we speak of the "polarization angle" of the LNBF. Think of your LNBF as a scope on a gun with vertical and horizontal crosshairs. Then think of the satellite as a "+" sign in the sky. The vertical "|" portion of the "+" must always be perpendicular to the equatorial arc (or the rainbow that TRON mentioned) and the "-" portion of the "+" must always be tangent to the arc. Therefore, as the satellite ("+") moves across the sky, it appears to tilt east as the satellite moves east and tilt west as the satellite moves west from our reference point on the ground.. Therefore, we must rotate our LNBF in the same direction that the satellite moves in order to keep our crosshairs aligned with the "+" of the satellite. The action of the motor on our motorized dish accomplishes this for us. On a fixed point, non-motorized dish, we would have to actually "rotate" the LNBF ourselves.
(4) AcWxRadar, what do you mean by "using the board across the face of the dish" in your instructions for using the inclinometer? Can you kindly post a drawing or picture, if words cannot describe it?
A: You need a stable, flat surface to place your inclinometer upon to take a good reading or the angle. Since the dish itself is concave, you don't really have any flat spot to lay the inclinometer against. So, take a stiff, truly flat board and lay it vertically against the dish so the the ends of the board overlap the outer perimeter (rim) of the dish. You want the board to run vertically as near to the center axis of the dish as you can, using the two points of the dish rim as supports. Then you will have a good flat surface to take your inclinometer reading from. Think of it like placing a ladder across the top bricks of an old well so that you can crawl across it.
(5) Do I need to somehow "center" the bent motor pole, since I previously moved it all over the place? If yes, how do I make sure it is where it needs to be? Or do I just acquire the True South satellite and all is well?
A: Yes, you want the "motor tube" the bent shaft that your dish attaches to, to be "centered" This is what we were talking about in question #1 regarding the "reference" position. If you have a "GO TO ZERO" or a "GO TO REFERENCE" command in your USALS or your DiSEqC 1.2 motor control menus in your receiver, use that. Otherwise, use the manual control buttons on your motor itself. Always verify that the motor did indeed go to the zero or reference position by checking the scale on the belly of the motor. Best to do this before you attach your dish, otherwise it will be difficult to see it straight on.
RADAR
I have no idea how it happens, but this has happened to me a couple times. Actually, my motor came new with the reference zero off 2 or 3 degrees. After living with it for a year or so, I reset it to the proper zero. Used it this way for several months, then found that the zero had reset itself by about 12 degrees. Reset that, and used it for a few months, and then found that it had reset itself be a couple degrees again. I reset that, and it's been fine since. But somehow, perhaps some electrical glitch or corrupted diseqC signal, the darn thing seems to somehow get it's zero reference position changed. I'm thinking that perhaps it isn't a complete hard reset that's occurring, but rather an accidental "resync" command being sent to the motor, because I don't think that the stored diseqC-1.2 sat positions got erased. It's just that the zero gets changed, like you tell it to goto zero, and it goes to 12 deg instead.
B.J.
You and I should discuss this issue in detail (not here, but sometime in another thread without taking away from TMB's post). This issue really deserves some looking into. I have not witnessed this problem or anything like it. The worst I have observed were the problems I had with my own SonicView 360 Premier and now with my sat list in the AZBox (but each has been a separate and unique issue for me).
So, if you feel like starting a thread about it, I would join in. Unfortunately, I am out of time for today. I stayed up too late and I must head off to bed now.
RADAR
Two things.
First, just to comment on the difference between diseqC-1.2 and USALS, since I'm thinking that despite the 2 responses, that it may not be completely clear...
Despite the fact that the USALS people won't admit it, USALS, is really just one additional extended diseqC-1.2 command, ie a GOTO-X command.
With diseqC-1.2, as Radar mentions, you find the satellite manually, then save the position IN THE MOTOR. The motor can store about 60 sat positions, and after they are saved, all you need is a go to position #5 type command, and all your receiver needs to remember is that a specific sat is #5 or #6, etc. Some receivers let you choose the sat position number to use, other receivers won't let you see or control that number.
With USALS, your receiver needs to calculate the angle that the motor needs to turn to get to the sat, based on your Lat/Lon and the sat's Lon. Then the receiver sends a GOTO-X command where the "X" is that angle. That angle X is relative to the zero position.
The second thing relates to something Radar said, and is more of a question than an answer.
This pre-programmed satellite list is something that I have NEVER understood. It just makes no sense at all to me.
First of all, the pre-programmed list is generally a list of European sats, most of which we can't even see from North America, and the pre-programmed sat numbers are generally in the #1 thru #26 positions. But the thing that confuses me, is I don't see how they can possibly actually store sat locations in the motor, because those positions would be different for every different lat/lon of the motor users. I wish that I had experimented with my motor when it was new, just to see if it would actually try to GO to one of these positions, because I really don't see how it could possibly have anything meaningful stored there.
What I really think makes more sense, is that the pre-programmed list was really more a function of the older receivers than a function of the motors. Ie my first diseqC-1.2 receiver had these positions pre-programmed into the default satellite list that came with the receiver. Ie if I selected say PAS3, it would already be programmed as sat position # 24, but I'm guessing that it would still have to be manually located, and manually saved into the motor, because I really don't understand how it would be possible for them to actually store sat positions into the motor without knowing the lat/lon of the person who buys the motor. That being said, the motor manuals sure make it sound like there is actually position data in there, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Related to this though, this whole thing about pre-programmed sat positions, was really annoying to me, because my first diseqC-1.2 receiver wouldn't let me use the first 26 sat positions. Ie if I wanted to start my ARC at say G18, and save that as #1, it wouldn't let me, because the first sat position number for manual entry was #27! It turned out that I could use a channel editor for the receiver, and then get access to the position numbers 1-26, but it made it a complicated procedure for using the first 26 position numbers, and I had so many sats that I wanted to save, that there weren't enough positions between 27 and 60, so I needed to use the first 26.
Newer receivers don't do this, they let you use the first 26 positions, but often they do this at the expense of not having any access to the sat position numbers at all. Like with the Mercury II, you don't have any control over what position numbers you're using unless you use a binary editor, and go in and enter position numbers after the fact (assuming that they have been stored in the motor by some other receiver, which is what I had to do).
Anyway, I'm curious what other people think, relative to how these pre-programmed sat positions were actually supposed to work, for people in Europe who could actually see these sats? Were there actual positions stored in the motors, or was it just the relationship between sat and position number that was involved (ie this wouldn't really have ANYTHING stored in the motor).
I just can't figure out ANY possible way that pre-programmed sat positions could be implimented. I must be missing something.
First, just to comment on the difference between diseqC-1.2 and USALS, since I'm thinking that despite the 2 responses, that it may not be completely clear...
Despite the fact that the USALS people won't admit it, USALS, is really just one additional extended diseqC-1.2 command, ie a GOTO-X command.
With diseqC-1.2, as Radar mentions, you find the satellite manually, then save the position IN THE MOTOR. The motor can store about 60 sat positions, and after they are saved, all you need is a go to position #5 type command, and all your receiver needs to remember is that a specific sat is #5 or #6, etc. Some receivers let you choose the sat position number to use, other receivers won't let you see or control that number.
With USALS, your receiver needs to calculate the angle that the motor needs to turn to get to the sat, based on your Lat/Lon and the sat's Lon. Then the receiver sends a GOTO-X command where the "X" is that angle. That angle X is relative to the zero position.
The second thing relates to something Radar said, and is more of a question than an answer.
This pre-programmed satellite list is something that I have NEVER understood. It just makes no sense at all to me.
First of all, the pre-programmed list is generally a list of European sats, most of which we can't even see from North America, and the pre-programmed sat numbers are generally in the #1 thru #26 positions. But the thing that confuses me, is I don't see how they can possibly actually store sat locations in the motor, because those positions would be different for every different lat/lon of the motor users. I wish that I had experimented with my motor when it was new, just to see if it would actually try to GO to one of these positions, because I really don't see how it could possibly have anything meaningful stored there.
What I really think makes more sense, is that the pre-programmed list was really more a function of the older receivers than a function of the motors. Ie my first diseqC-1.2 receiver had these positions pre-programmed into the default satellite list that came with the receiver. Ie if I selected say PAS3, it would already be programmed as sat position # 24, but I'm guessing that it would still have to be manually located, and manually saved into the motor, because I really don't understand how it would be possible for them to actually store sat positions into the motor without knowing the lat/lon of the person who buys the motor. That being said, the motor manuals sure make it sound like there is actually position data in there, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Related to this though, this whole thing about pre-programmed sat positions, was really annoying to me, because my first diseqC-1.2 receiver wouldn't let me use the first 26 sat positions. Ie if I wanted to start my ARC at say G18, and save that as #1, it wouldn't let me, because the first sat position number for manual entry was #27! It turned out that I could use a channel editor for the receiver, and then get access to the position numbers 1-26, but it made it a complicated procedure for using the first 26 position numbers, and I had so many sats that I wanted to save, that there weren't enough positions between 27 and 60, so I needed to use the first 26.
Newer receivers don't do this, they let you use the first 26 positions, but often they do this at the expense of not having any access to the sat position numbers at all. Like with the Mercury II, you don't have any control over what position numbers you're using unless you use a binary editor, and go in and enter position numbers after the fact (assuming that they have been stored in the motor by some other receiver, which is what I had to do).
Anyway, I'm curious what other people think, relative to how these pre-programmed sat positions were actually supposed to work, for people in Europe who could actually see these sats? Were there actual positions stored in the motors, or was it just the relationship between sat and position number that was involved (ie this wouldn't really have ANYTHING stored in the motor).
I just can't figure out ANY possible way that pre-programmed sat positions could be implimented. I must be missing something.
Trying: Hang your head under the motor and make sure the arrow on the bottom is pointing to zero before you try to find your true south satellite. Everybody else said the same thing I just did but in a much longer way. This is what you are doing, lining zero on your motor up with south. Once your motor knows where south is it knows which way to go from there.
Could you post photos of some of the other setup screens on your sonicview? I'd like to see the screen where you chose the transponder, the one with signal and quality that you are using to aim and the one where you filled in 10750.
Everyone else: Trying is using sonicviews. This thread: http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-fta-discussion/208102-found-sonicview-8000-25-00-salvation.html lists issues caused by a dishnetwork epg. Anyone know if all the sonicviews were targeted or if it was just the 8000hd? Could this contribute to Trying's trouble?
Could you post photos of some of the other setup screens on your sonicview? I'd like to see the screen where you chose the transponder, the one with signal and quality that you are using to aim and the one where you filled in 10750.
Everyone else: Trying is using sonicviews. This thread: http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-air-fta-discussion/208102-found-sonicview-8000-25-00-salvation.html lists issues caused by a dishnetwork epg. Anyone know if all the sonicviews were targeted or if it was just the 8000hd? Could this contribute to Trying's trouble?
I know I'm guilty of that, ie being too wordy. Even in person, I've had more than one person fall asleep on me while I'm telling a story. What part of southern Maine? I'm just north of Bridgton.
BJ- I am close to Saco. I enjoy reading your posts in all threads and have learned from them. I was just trying to underline the point in other people's posts and didn't mean it as criticism.
I didn't take it as criticism. I was about to apologize for not knowing when to shut up before you posted. I just used to be a (very poor) teacher, and have this compulsion to make sure that every detail is discussed when usually the fewer words the better.
I've been there myself. The saying around our school was that you had to repeat everything at least 32 times before every student got it. Its a hard habit to break.
B.J.
I really don't understand the notion of "Pre-Stored" satellite positions within the motor, either. Although it does exist. I pulled out my manual for my DG-280 motor and it lists the satellites that are Pre-Stored in it. They range from 15.0°W to 148.0°W and include C and Ku band sats, albeit outdated (i.e. 148.0°W is no longer there, and 123.0°W is listed as Galaxy 10R etc.) Then again, I bought this motor a few years ago so it is older.
Here is the crux and what makes me wonder... At the top of the page, it states:
*Pre-Stored satellites are based on Columbus, OH / Location: 40.0 N, 83.1 W
It almost seems as if the pre-stored positions are directed towards and only useful to someone at that location, but that surely cannot be so. Why would you bother storing a list of 60 satellites that is only applicable to one area? That doesn't make sense. There has to be more to it than just this.
Hmmm? Maybe we should ask Sadoun to help explain this?
Speed Dial: Sadoun
RADAR
B.J.
I really don't understand the notion of "Pre-Stored" satellite positions within the motor, either. Although it does exist. I pulled out my manual for my DG-280 motor and it lists the satellites that are Pre-Stored in it. They range from 15.0°W to 148.0°W and include C and Ku band sats, albeit outdated (i.e. 148.0°W is no longer there, and 123.0°W is listed as Galaxy 10R etc.) Then again, I bought this motor a few years ago so it is older.
Here is the crux and what makes me wonder... At the top of the page, it states:
*Pre-Stored satellites are based on Columbus, OH / Location: 40.0 N, 83.1 W
It almost seems as if the pre-stored positions are directed towards and only useful to someone at that location, but that surely cannot be so. Why would you bother storing a list of 60 satellites that is only applicable to one area? That doesn't make sense. There has to be more to it than just this.
Hmmm? Maybe we should ask Sadoun to help explain this?
Speed Dial: Sadoun
RADAR
Interesting. Sounds to me like they customize the motors for certain dealers. That motor sounds like it was made specially for Sadoun, since he's located at Columbus. That's a newer motor than mine. The older motors didn't have CONUS satellites programmed in at all. My SG2100, which I DID get at Sadoun, but before they came out with the newer model motors, had, like I said 26 sats programmed in. They ranged from 31.5 E to 37.5W . Didn't have ANY sat that I could see at the time (I could have gotten a few of them before the trees grew). And like I said, my first couple of Fortec receivers also had the first 26 slots pre-programmed for the same European satellites.
But I agree, that it doesn't make any sense to put locations in there when it would only be useful for people in one location, be it Columbus or some place in Europe. Wierd.
When I first programmed my SG2100, since even though it had 60 locations available, my Fortec Lifetime receiver only had positions 1-49 available, and the first 26 were pre-defined as above, leaving only 23 slots, and I needed more.
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