Zero Quality Signal--Have tried everything I can

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The easiest way I can think of describing the motion of the dish as the motor tracks from east to west is the arc described by the constellation Orion at night while you're looking up and facing south.

Imagine your facing south. Look up into the sky & track an imaginary arc from east to west by tilting your head from left to right, without turning your neck. Ouch.

Now imagine the lnb is directly in front of your face parallel to your nose. The skew of the lnb goes from negative on the east to positive on the west, left to right facing south.

I hope this helps.
 
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linear signals are shot at the earth either parallel to or perpendicular to Earth's axis.Your position's relationship to that plane tends to swing bottom away the further East or West satellites you are looking at.

skewing.jpg


The longer arc is supposed to be the curve of the Earth. The Clarke Belt is where the satellites are. We only get to see about 120degrees of it since the horizon gets in the way.
 
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....Your position's relationship to that plane tends to swing bottom away the further East or West satellites you are looking at.

skewing.jpg


...

Isn't this backward? Or perhaps your skew is from the perspective from in front of the dish instead of looking from behind? Ie looking from behind the dish, I think you'd expect a clockwise skew as you move west for example? Or am I not understanding your picture?
 
Firstly, a heartfelt warm thank you to everybody that took the time and effort to reply. Please be assured I am downloading all the information, and reading it carefully. I must confess to feeling a bit overwhelmed, but am determined to stick with it.

Given the above, the suggestion was made to mount the satellite without the motor, and measure the angle using an inclinometer, then duplicate. Will this be the easiest way to do this? From what I have read about USALS, once I have one satellite input, the software will find the others, so all I need to do is find that elusive first satellite--am I correct in that assumption, or have I misunderstood?

Again, many many thanks for all the great information--I did track down and download all the files mentioned in the FAQ's of FTA, on how to install a motorized dish, which was wonderful information.

I just read the post that Satmex 5, which was my True South satellite and the one I was pointing at, is C band ! Ugggh. Thank you for mentioning that--maybe that is a big part of the problem. Now I feel rather stupid for not reading the fine print on lygsat.

Thank you for pointing that out !!

TryingMyBest,

Ensure that your LNB Frequency is set to 10.750 to match the local oscillator frequency of the LNBF. Since the 10.750 figure was listed on your LNBF, that is the local oscillator frequency that you MUST use. If the L.O. frequency had been listed as 9.750/10.600 then it would be typical of a Universal LNBF and therefore you would have to use that setting in your menus.

SatMex 5 at 116.8°W does offer Ku-Band signals.

Try these TPs: 12024 MHz Horizontal SR 3000, 12059 MHz Vertical SR 3078 and 12175 MHz Horizontal SR 3935. Enter these TPs for SatMex 5.

Using USALS will allow you to find all the other satellites once you have set (calibrated) your dish and motor to at least ONE satellite. There will usually be a need to perform some minor tweaking to fine tune it for the best possible tracking, but you should be fairly close.

Setting the dish on the mast without the motor may provide a simpler approach to locating the stellite position. It will take some extra steps overall, but it reduces the number of variables that you have to contend with at one time.

If you try setting up your dish without the motor, set your dish elevation to 51.6°. I understand that this will be difficult to judge (read) because you only have scale markings every 10 degrees, but approximate it the best you can or use an inclinometer. Then pan the dish east to west and back while monitoring the signal meter for one of the TPs I mentioned to "pop-in". I think I would try TP 12059 V personally. It seems to be a strong signal, at least for me. Pan the dish slowly, just a small increment at a time to allow time for your receiver to lock on any signal that might be present. Stop and pause shortly in between each move. One to three seconds should usually be long enough time to allow any receiver to lock on to a signal.

Don't rely upon your TV in the house to monitor your adjustments, that is too tough to do. Use your receiver and a portable TV on a bench or stand right out at the dish. You need to be able to see the immediate results of your adjustments.

If you are trying for SatMex 5 (ONLY) with just the dish (without motor) you won't need to set the LNBF polarity. It should be set at zero degrees. It would actually be -0.3°, but that is so close that it should be simply ignored. This is true because SatMex 5 is your due south satellite and it's orbital degree (116.8°) is so close to your longitude degree (117°), so the satellite itself is straight in line with your position.

The focal depth of the LNBF needs to be set (how far the LNBF neck is positioned in/out in the clamp). Refer to your dish assembly instructions for this. If none are provided, set it half-way and adjust it later for optimum performance.

If you don't achieve a signal, lower the dish elevation angle to about 48° to 49° and pan the dish back and forth again. If no signal is found, raise the dish elevation one degree and repeat the panning process. Continue raising the dish elevation by about one degree and panning until you get to about 55° or 56°.

Somewhere in the above process, you should lock onto a signal. When you do, fine adjust the azimuth and the dish elevation to "peak" the signal to the highest quality reading you can achieve. Then, place a stiff, flat board across the center of the face of the dish (vertically) and place an inclinometer on the board. Read the angle and record it.

Take a good reference of the azimuth position of the dish. Maybe try marking the mast where the center of the dish clamp is located (where it attaches to the mast) with a felt marker.

Then, remove the dish from the mast and install the motor. Set the motor bracket/clamp as close to the same aiming position that the dish bracket/clamp was set to.

Set the lattitude of the motor to 33° using the lattitude scale (or 57° elevation using the elvation scale). Ensure that you use the raised or embossed/stamped pointer to read this angle. Do not use the mounting bolt.

Install the dish on the motor tube and center the dish clamp on the tube so that the vertical axis of the dish is perfectly in line with the vertical axis of the motor tube.

Snug everything up just enough to prevent each axis from moving. But, not too tight!

Now, place the board and the inclinometer across the vertical face of the dish as you did earlier and adjust the dish elevation so that the inclinometer reads the angle that you recorded earlier.

Now check your signal quality on the receiver from the same TP as you used previously. You should have something showing or you should be very close to it. From here on out, make extremely small adjustments to the azimuth (east/west) and the dish elevation angles. Do not adjust the motor elevation/lattitude setting.

With everything snug, stand behind the dish and grasp the outer edges of the dish with both hands and gently twist the dish up/down or left/right and note what changes this makes in your signal quality. Loosen the mounting bolts and move the dish in the direction that produces the most improvement.

You can now experiement with setting the LNBF focal position if necessary (move it in or out in the clamp) or rotate it slightly for best performance. If any adjustment here provides a higher quality signal, set the LNBF to that position.

If all goes well up to this point, you should have your system calibrated for at least SatMex 5. Tracking the rest of the satellites using USALS may require some more tweaking. That will become a subject for another conversation.

RADAR

P.S. Make sure that you are not using any switches in your cable circuit at this time. That is just one more thing to contend with that you don't need during the alignment process. If you have already set the menu selections to operate a switch, don't worry about that, they can remain in place since, without a switch installed, the commands will simply be ignored. Therefore, you don't have to disable or change them in any way. Just ensure that any switches are physically removed from the circuit and you have bypassed around them with your cable.
 
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I'm all for the "FTA for Dummies" idea...the best way to learn is to teach
so I would love to be involved.

In the mean time, did you get any measurements off the dish (without
the motor)? Just wondering if you were able to establish roughly what
the angle should be (a digital pic sometimes helps, just as a reminder later).
 
This is what I am trying to say.
Well, I guess I'm back to saying that I think that's reversed relative to what it should be.
If you think about a motorized dish. When the motor turns, if you start out looking due south, then move either east or west, the top of the lnbf will move more than the bottom, and a line from top to bottom will cross at a point below at the due south view. (not sure that makes sense). Anyway, I think you have it exactly backwards.
 
Excellent reply Radar! That is pretty detailed information and simple to understand! Excellent post! :) :up

Thanks Ironsides! I did attempt to present it in a logical fashion, with details and reasonings to help explain what and why.

I'm all for the "FTA for Dummies" idea...the best way to learn is to teach...

NCElecTech,

You are so right! When a person installs a dish (or does anything for that matter) you only learn so much. You simply try to repeat what other's are telling you to do. If you attempt to explain your own personal procedures to others, you learn a great deal more about what you actually did. The process of explaining it refines your own methods and you actually end up pinpointing your own errors or finding quicker or more accurate and simpler methods to do what you did.

The instructions in any manual are often vague and they "assume" that you can fill in the voids. That is the reason that such forums as SatelliteGuys exists. If we could all simply read the installation manuals and have everything work perfectly in every case right off the get-go, we wouldn't be discussing this here and we wouldn't be making new friends. Everyone would simply be watching TV! LOL

But, alas, nothing is really cut and dried that good and nothing in life is that perfect, there is always the unexpected circumstance to contend with.

RADAR
 
This is what I am trying to say.

Well, I guess I'm back to saying that I think that's reversed relative to what it should be.
If you think about a motorized dish. When the motor turns, if you start out looking due south, then move either east or west, the top of the lnbf will move more than the bottom, and a line from top to bottom will cross at a point below at the due south view. (not sure that makes sense). Anyway, I think you have it exactly backwards.

Regarding your polarity discussion...

Consider your LNBF as a scope on a gun, a scope with vertical and horizontal crosshairs forming a "+". In your mind, draw an arc across the sky like a rainbow, but aligned to the south over the equator.

Next, realize that you must twist that scope CW or CCW to keep the vertical crosshair perfectly perpendicular to a line that is tangent to the arc of that rainbow and the horizontal crosshair perfectly parallel to that same tangent line.

Therefore, if the satellite is further east of your longitudinal position, the top of the vertical crosshair must rotate in the same direction in order to follow the satellite. So move or rotate the top of the LNBF to follow the satellite's postion.

If the satellite is directly south of you, then the LNBF is dead center and the "cross" or "+" is perfectly tangent to the curvature of the earth where you are located as well as the arc of our rainbow in the sky. If the satellite is further east, the top of the LNBF must be rotated east. If the satellite is more westerly, then the top of the LNBF must be rotated to the west.

Envisioning a cross or a plus sign in the sky, tangent to our rainbow, and a cross or plus sign on the ground which must maintain the same alignment is easier to visualize. I think. Therefore, as you select different satellite positions across the sky, they tilt towards the east when you select one to the east and they tilt west as you select one to the west. The LNBF must be rotated (polarized) to follow them in this manner.

This eliminates the question of the reference point (whether you are in front of the dish or behind it) since east is east and west is west, always.

RADAR
 
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Well, I guess I'm back to saying that I think that's reversed relative to what it should be.
If you think about a motorized dish. When the motor turns, if you start out looking due south, then move either east or west, the top of the lnbf will move more than the bottom, and a line from top to bottom will cross at a point below at the due south view. (not sure that makes sense). Anyway, I think you have it exactly backwards.


I had to go look. You're right.
 
I look at it like

It may not make any sense to you guys but this is my 2 cents...

The Satellite is the Transmitter the signal comes down to the Dish..When I am working on my Dish, I think about the satellite signal coming to a receiver. That's my simple approch...

Most people look at the dish and then the satellite...I guess I look at it backwards...but that's how I set the skew and it works for me! :) :up
 
Hello All

No, I didn't toss the dish--that stage has passed:). I am very sensitive to asking naive questions and repeating myself, so I am taking time to re-study all the prior posts. I find, and I think many will understand this, that now that I have "something" up and running I can play with it and learn by trial and error.

More importantly, I am following Freezy's advice and heading out on the weekend to get the tool he advised (the magnetic inclinometer) from Harbor Freight Tools--thank you so much for that Freezy ! I will attempt the last stage over the weekend and report back on Monday.

Lastly, I felt all the kind people here deserved a break over Easter holiday !:) Happy Easter to all of you, and as Ahhnold is fond of saying, "I'll be baaack".

Please know that I do read, and re-read, every single post. It is rapidly sinking in, and like yourselves, I am getting totally hooked. 3 months ago just the word LNB scared me. Thank you to everybody that has shared their time and knowledge, and Happy Easter to all of you.
 
I am also carefully studying AcWxRadar's manual

How to set up a Motorized KU Band dish, posted 10/10/2009. Very informative, and very kind of you to share.

Happy Easter to all and I will post again early next week !
 
You'll probably have better luck once you get the angle meter, it's easy enough to use. I find myself grabbing for it every time I try to move or re-aim a dish. Also, you can find "SatFinder" program on the web and download it. Small java program for windows or linux and will display the elevation/azimuth/skew angles for all the satellites.
 
Just a BTW.... I still do not have a motorized working here, BUT ... I had a neighbor whop was setting up. We went to his fixed dish the the inclinometer and measure the angle on the arm at true south PEAK satellite. Put on the motor and figured how the numbers matched up to give the same angle on the arm. It was not as either of us imagined! But when he powered up, a minor tweak on position on pipe and he got signal. He said he has a buch of birds, but I have not had time to get back and see it.
Pardon the spelling or thought process if you find some errors. Only 44° inside the computer room!
POP
 
Just a BTW.... I still do not have a motorized working here, BUT ... I had a neighbor whop was setting up. We went to his fixed dish the the inclinometer and measure the angle on the arm at true south PEAK satellite. Put on the motor and figured how the numbers matched up to give the same angle on the arm......

There are an infinite number of combinations of motor elevation/dish elevation that give this same angle on the inclinometer and are the wrong setting, and only one that is correct. Ie the wrong combination may give signal on the south and a few sats near there, but will be off the further away from south you get.

You can use that technique to help go from fixed to motorized, but you should first set the motor elevation to the proper value, and THEN use that method using only the dish elevation. However this only gets you close enough to get a lock, and you then tune for maximum signal quality while adjusting dish elevation.

Also, the angle on the "arm" doesn't have any real meaning beyond that specific dish. Different brands, models, or even other dishes of the same brand/model will/can have different angles on the arm, so you probably won't be able to use the angle he gets to help align your dish. The elevation angle of the mount itself, however DOES have a fundamental meaning, and that angle should be set or verified to be as close to theory as possible, and the numbers in most motor manuals suggest the traditional values, which are not the best numbers to use.
 
BJ, That is so true, however when you feel older than the total of the numbers .... well you do what you can to get the numbers to make sense, and in this case there was one combination that made sense! and it seemed to work. And he says he gets most of the birds on the arc. I am not going to check iot out until it stops snowing --- for about 2 months. Six inches stuck to the ground on Saturday, even with the 47 MPH winds.
 
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