Whats up with the FTA equipment prices?

[DirectDishNet]

DirectDishNet,

I hope we haven't hijacked your thread too badly. I know that we are deviating off your original topic on a sort of tangent of our own, but Anole's and my information is good information for you and others to be aware of.

I hope that it gives you a heads up kinda warning. As I have stated before, I don't want to see anyone have to find out the mistakes alone or in a hard way.
If I have important or first hand information, I will share it with you to ensure that you you don't get hosed.

Good luck and happy hunting!

RADAR

Radar!, This is exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks guy's, All of this info you are providing is helping me a great deal. Because of this thread, I now have a better understanding of what to expect and what to look for. I greatly appreciate all of your input.

 

[zamar23]

The difference is the firmware development. ...I disagree with making a blacklist based on brand names... (Why not) post a poll where SatelliteGuys can rate each model on hobbyist features and merit.

Very reasonable comment in my view. Always praised (except for not supporting popular Opera browser). With regards to FTA Sat TV & Radio being merely viewed as a hobby, I disagree. Many progressive countries' governments consider this mass communication window as a strategic democracy asset.

 

[Tron]

To demonstrate the confusion that exists..... Why demonize the Coolsat 6100, but praise the Visonsat IV-200? Same base motherboard, but the 6100 had on board flash for timeshift recording. Other physical differences are cosmetic.

The difference is the firmware development. The IV-200 firmware files favored the hobbyists, because we lobbied them! We wanted a STB that we could offer to the hobbyist community that met our needs.

Brian, I love both of my Visionsat IV-200s. As many on the forum probably know, these boxes have the very useful ability to record the transport stream, in spite of the fact they cannot always display what they are recording. The IV-200 can record both high-bitrate HD and 4:2:2, which makes it a great deal. If you ever come upon someone wanting to unload a batch of these for pennies on the dollar, please grab them up for SatelliteGuys members!

 

[SatelliteAV]

With regards to FTA Sat TV & Radio being merely viewed as a hobby, I disagree. Many progressive countries' governments consider this mass communication window as a strategic democracy asset.

I am attempting to provide a term which defines the features that we as hobbyists desire. Most MPEG receivers, irregardless of the the intended market will receive free to air channels from a single or multiple switched satellites. As hobbyists, we demand features that are not usually in great demand even in regions that utilize this as a form of mass communication.

Brian, I love both of my Visionsat IV-200s. As many on the forum probably know, these boxes have the very useful ability to record the transport stream, in spite of the fact they cannot always display what they are recording. The IV-200 can record both high-bitrate HD and 4:2:2, which makes it a great deal. If you ever come upon someone wanting to unload a batch of these for pennies on the dollar, please grab them up for SatelliteGuys members!

The GEOSATpro DVR1100c also supports these same abilities! Why? Because it is useful for the hobbyist and we requested the feature!

BTW..... The Visionsat IV-200 will never be available again. The remaining stock was surrendered to the OEM importing company and most likely now sitting in a warehouse awaiting destruction due to a recent court ruling.

 

[Anole]

I said this would be controversial:

What makes one brand different from another?
Well, discounting the use of poor quality parts (a matter we're not even discussing here) it's mostly in the firmware.

There is a Diamond HD receiver, which with a bit more firmware development, could have been a real winner.
What little development there was, went into hack support, which then abruptly ceased.
Some users were left with little more than a boat-anchor.

So, if we're talking about older SD receivers which had mostly hack support, and little or no development for FTA uses, then discussing them is quite fair.
Some were clones of other well known receivers.
One difference would be in the boot loader, altered to not load the firmware of the major brand.
Then, somewhere along the lifetime of the unit, a modified boot loader might be made available to convert the clone to the major brand.
In some cases, this would require use of a different remote.
The average end user would have no idea what he's got, nor what potential it might have.

I find it sad when newbies come to the forum with a highly promoted receiver, only to discover that it has poor/no motor control, limited-to-poor switch control, and slow or in some cases -no- blind scan.
I once bought an excellent little receiver with beautiful video output.
It was promoted all over the internet as having blind scan.
Whether the hardware capabilities were there or not, the firmware never did support it.
Some Viewsat models at one time had no or abysmal motor control.
There was just no need for it when decoding signals from fixed dishes, so not a firmware priority
The hardware was quite capable, and eventually the problem was fixed.
But, due to their desirability, they commanded a premium price.

If one of our gold sponsors were to buy up a truck-load of some odd brand and give clear discussion of their capabilities, that might be a bargain for everyone concerned.
It's the unknown, that bites ya in the rear.



For purposes of this discussion, the term "hacked" refers to mods to the receiver to decode any of the pay TV networks.
Since that's -mostly- a thing of the past, the gloves are off and -any- receiver should be evaluated for their potential use in FTA.
Mods to improve AC3 support, installing cooling fans, etc., have no place in this discussion.

 

[Mr Tony]

Stargazer,

The obvious is the sellers credentials first and foremost. I do not buy from a seller with less than a 98% rating reputation and less than 500 sales unless I can speak to them personally and can verify their establishment through the BBB. Then, I only use PayPal secured with a credit card with fraud insurance.

I guess you wont buy anything from me then?
I've been on EBay for almost 10 years buying things and I can count on one hand the times I've been screwed. 3 were for some old wrestling tapes. I havent had any issues with FTA equipment and I've purchased numerous receivers on Ebay.

Phrases such as "New in Box", "Unopened", "All Original Equipment Included", "Factory Version" or "Not Modified" etc are positive notes.

huh.....I bought 2 Pansat 5000's a while back (dual tuner PVR units) and both had "factory version" in the title yet when I turned them on they both had stuff on the hard drive with titles as "PPV 501", "PPV 512" and "SPORT 455"...hmmm....sounds like Dish PPV to me. Didnt know factory could get Dish scrambled stuff

"As Is", "Slightly Used", "Has Damage" or "Condition Uncertain" are key words to be wary of unless the price is just too good. Damaged or faulty equipment, if the seller makes the effort not to hide such and is open and honest about it, can be good deals for parts and salvage purposes.

also if there is a stock picture and not the actual item especially if used

 

[zamar23]

I can add that many sellers don't have knowledge, time, desire or capability to check every item they were offered to sell. Hence the term "as is" in many cases really means "no return or exchange". I tried to contact the seller on such occasions, and was never disappointed once decided to buy the unit in question. Besides, some cheap "as is" items may be still under warranty, making it a real treasure. In fact, in wast majority of cases "as is" items I bought were in "like new" condition, but I wouldn't upfront count on this. There is a fare share of diverse attempts to unload questionable quality stuff and fool buyers on EBay.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I guess you wont buy anything from me then?
I've been on EBay for almost 10 years buying things and I can count on one hand the times I've been screwed. 3 were for some old wrestling tapes. I havent had any issues with FTA equipment and I've purchased numerous receivers on Ebay.

Ha Ha! Ice, now you know that I would not have any qualms about buying anything from you. I know you through this forum and that makes it like going into a ma and pa shop in my hometown. The kind of atmosphere where you went to school with the proprietors kids. When you come into their shop, you talk like close friends and neighbors. They couldn't screw you on a deal because they have pride in themselves and in the reputation of their business around town.

Buying things over the internet, such as through E-Bay, takes that hometown atmosphere away and some sellers may not have that sense of pride and commitment to the customer. The personal touch is lacking here.

I have purchased over $10K worth of merchandise over the internet and have not been disappointed with any of the sellers.

I was disappointed with one product, but not because of any fault of the seller.

Generally, I only buy over the internet through actual businesses (like an E-Bay Store) rather than through an individual. I have not had any bad experiences buying from an individual however. As I stated, if I can speak to them directly and discuss the merchandise prior to the sale and get to know the seller somewhat personally, they usually become quite open and eager to provide all the details about the item they are selling.

I bought my Wild Blue internet equipment this way and the lady I purchased it from even called me back after the sale to ensure that I received it ok and to ask if I had any questions that she could assist me with. Now that is down-home friendly!

huh.....I bought 2 Pansat 5000's a while back (dual tuner PVR units) and both had "factory version" in the title yet when I turned them on they both had stuff on the hard drive with titles as "PPV 501", "PPV 512" and "SPORT 455"...hmmm....sounds like Dish PPV to me. Didnt know factory could get Dish scrambled stuff

Oh yeah! Not everything nor everyone is truly honest. Gosh, you would think that they would have at least wiped the slate clean for you, simply out of courtesy if nothing else.

also if there is a stock picture and not the actual item especially if used

True, if they have the ability to download a stock picture to present it for a used item for sale, surely you would think that they could also have the ability to take some digital picture of the actual device that they are selling. I do look for these sort of hints when buying over the net. Like I stated, if the seller goes out of their way to present the item clearly and honestly and in detail, you can generally trust them to be sincere and on the level.

RADAR

 

[Dozerdean]

I guess you wont buy anything from me then?
I've been on EBay for almost 10 years buying things and I can count on one hand the times I've been screwed. 3 were for some old wrestling tapes. I havent had any issues with FTA equipment and I've purchased numerous receivers on Ebay.


huh.....I bought 2 Pansat 5000's a while back (dual tuner PVR units) and both had "factory version" in the title yet when I turned them on they both had stuff on the hard drive with titles as "PPV 501", "PPV 512" and "SPORT 455"...hmmm....sounds like Dish PPV to me. Didnt know factory could get Dish scrambled stuff


also if there is a stock picture and not the actual item especially if used

Me either. Bought all my fta stuff from ebay. Never got screwd. All recievers Fortic star, coolsat 6000 both used & a new Neosat 6000 sp. Happy with all of them

 

[AcWxRadar]

I disagree with making a blacklist based on brand names.

I have to agree with this as well. It may not be quite fair to do so.
The equipment reviews are the most honest, comprehensive and best way to accomplish this task. Simply giving a black-eye to one brand for one bad model doesn't tell the whole story. There are a few that we could definitely pinpoint as negative, but we need to walk a thin line here.

If a Satellite Guy has time and wants to take the lead and be constructive in helping out the consumer, why not make a list of all known brands and models available in North America. Once that process is complete, post a poll where SatelliteGuys can rate each model on hobbyist features and merit.

This would be an excellent service to the forum members and all hobbyists. But, it is definitely a major task. Someone would truly have to test every receiver make and model in detail and make an honest report of their findings. This would be quite an undertaking.

Last year I subscribed to TeleSatellite magazine and they had some nice reviews, but I think that they were a little swayed or biased at times. Almost as if it were a paid advertisement. That does no justice.

The reviews made by the actual end user who is dedicated to what they paid their own money for are the best reviews. Through this avenue, the real story is presented.

RADAR

 

[SatelliteAV]

Yes, the TeleSatellite reviews are very skewed in the favor of advertisers. Very unfortunate!

Sorry if I was misunderstood to suggest that a single member would undertake the process. A single list would be built by SatelliteGuys input then maintained by a member / moderator. Each Satellite Guy member could contribute and rate receivers on specific criteria that has been established by the moderator.

Example:

Brand: Fortec Star
Model: Lifetime Ultra
MPEG 2: Yes
MPEG 4: No
S2: No
4:2:2: No
Notes Pro: Solid receiver with very good advanced function.
Notes Con: Capacitors in power supply tend to fail early and often.
Overall Rating: 9 (Rated Function 1 being Poor to 10 Being Excellent)

Motor Control: Yes
DiSEqC 1.2: Yes
USALS: Yes
Notes Pro: Features DiSEqC 1.2 Reset Function
Notes: Con:
Rating: 10

Switch Control: Yes
DiSEqC 1.0: Yes
DiSEqC 1.1: No
DiSEqC 2.0: No
22KHz: Yes
Notes Pro: Reliable switching especially over long cable runs
Notes Con: Lacks advanced switching protocols
Rating: 7

Blind Scan: Yes
IF Frequency Range: Auto to LNB Selection
Symbol Rate Range: Yes
Polarity Selection: Yes
Frequency Step: No
Notes Pro: Fast Accurate
Notes Con: Limited user adjustable parameters, Doesn't display FEC parameter, Symbol rate is often slightly off.
Rating: 8

Dolby AC3: Yes
Toslink Optical: No
Coaxial: Yes
Decodes Dolby: No
Notes Pro: Passes Digital Audio for external decoding
Notes Con: No Toslink
Rating 7

Channel Editor: Yes
Firmware Update: Yes
RS-232: Yes
Type: Straight
USB: No
Notes Pro: Easy to use and back-up firmware and channels
Notes Con:
Rating: 9

Closed Captioning: Yes
Notes Pro:
Notes Con: Tables not well implemented. Many errors displayed on most channels.
Rating: 3

Remote
Notes Pro: Good balance, layout and range
Notes Con: Receiver must be occasionally rebooted to enable remote control. Daylight washes out the IR function.
Rating: 3

>
>
>

Etc......

 

[AcWxRadar]

Yes, the TeleSatellite reviews are very skewed in the favor of advertisers. Very unfortunate!

Sorry if I was misunderstood to suggest that a single member would undertake the process. A single list would be built by SatelliteGuys input then maintained by a member / moderator. Each Satellite Guy member could contribute and rate receivers on specific criteria that has been established by the moderator.

Example:

Brand: Fortec Star
Model: Lifetime Ultra
MPEG 2: Yes
MPEG 4: No
S2: No
4:2:2: No
Notes Pro: Solid receiver with very good advanced function.
Notes Con: Capacitors in power supply tend to fail early and often.
Overall Rating: 9 (Rated Function 1 being Poor to 10 Being Excellent)

Motor Control: Yes
DiSEqC 1.2: Yes
USALS: Yes
Notes Pro: Features DiSEqC 1.2 Reset Function
Notes: Con:
Rating: 10

Switch Control: Yes
DiSEqC 1.0: Yes
DiSEqC 1.1: No
DiSEqC 2.0: No
22KHz: Yes
Notes Pro: Reliable switching especially over long cable runs
Notes Con: Lacks advanced switching protocols
Rating: 7

Blind Scan: Yes
IF Frequency Range: Auto to LNB Selection
Symbol Rate Range: Yes
Polarity Selection: Yes
Frequency Step: No
Notes Pro: Fast Accurate
Notes Con: Limited user adjustable parameters, Doesn't display FEC parameter, Symbol rate is often slightly off.
Rating: 8

Dolby AC3: Yes
Toslink Optical: No
Coaxial: Yes
Decodes Dolby: No
Notes Pro: Passes Digital Audio for external decoding
Notes Con: No Toslink
Rating 7

Channel Editor: Yes
Firmware Update: Yes
RS-232: Yes
Type: Straight
USB: No
Notes Pro: Easy to use and back-up firmware and channels
Notes Con:
Rating: 9

Closed Captioning: Yes
Notes Pro:
Notes Con: Tables not well implemented. Many errors displayed on most channels.
Rating: 3

Remote
Notes Pro: Good balance, layout and range
Notes Con: Receiver must be occasionally rebooted to enable remote control. Daylight washes out the IR function.
Rating: 3

>
>
>

Etc......

Brian,

This is right on track of my thinking. I would, however, develop it into some sort of a spreadsheet such as an ExCel program.

I think you know what I mean, I am sure that you have seen those "comparison" spreadsheets on the shopping net. You know, where you check mark several pieces of equipment and then click COMPARE and it provides you with a yes or no indication regarding the options available. This would be a great tool for us to use here for our shopping.

If someone were to facilitate this, the last column in the comparison chart should link you to "customer reviews" so that you could read a first hand experience of that item.

The way we do this currently is a bit of a hit or miss approach. We really do not have a resource that addresses this in a refined and controlled pattern. Basically, there is no defined structure to our reviews.

I personally would like to see us adopt such a review mechanism. I think that all members would appreciate it. All of your listed categories are excellent and if we could make columns to compare more than one receiver in one shot, that would be great.

You spent some time generating and compiling the items in your compare list and I think you hit on most everything that we want! So excellent! I like your list of criteria, it is right on target!

RADAR

 

[Bill_KY]

The Visionsat IV-200 will never be available again. The remaining stock was surrendered to the OEM importing company and most likely now sitting in a warehouse awaiting destruction due to a recent court ruling.

Please explain the court ruling.

 

[zamar23]

Commenting on the receiver comparison table, I would add weight value to each commonly recognized as important (hence entered into the comparison table) parameter accessed, and then calculate a cumulative score for each receiver using a common formula.

 

[?134å]

I see many good comments and angles here. I'll throw in my 2 cents if I may.

From a dealer prospective it is more difficult to sell a Traxis or other "real" FTA receiver due to flooding of the market by "pirate" boxes. However at least to me this is a hobby first. Saturation of the market means that a guy looking to get into true FTA can do so cheaply. Very few of the "pirate" boxes are any good for blindscanning but most will do decent for getting fixed programming such as the NBC mux, the PBS mux, hotel nets, Christian programming, ethnic ect. I am an active promoter of trying to get former pirates and other interested people to dust off these boxes and use them for true FTA. People have to start out in the hobby somewhere and with the economy being bad this makes it more affordable to many. If they like it they can always move up to a serious true FTA box later.

I fully agree about the comments on installers. There are some real hacks out there and the average joe is gonna look at the cheap prices as being a good deal. Quality work by professional installers costs money, but you get what you pay for.

I personally don't think a list or blacklist is a good idea. Different boxes work for different applications and different user needs. The only exception to this rule is nfusion type units with built in IKS. That is a worthless pirate device plain and simple. Poor tuner and picture to boot, no true fta application.

I have several of the hack boxes myself. Restoring these units to factory is not difficult and as I said even some of the bad ones will work for fixed programming. I'll put in my experience on some that I have kept around.

Viewsat Xtreme: I use a Viewsat Xtreme for 99% of my feed hunting. It is a fairly fast scanning box that does a decent job of finding feeds. I have found and posted thousands of feeds using this box. The picture is acceptable on my 47" LCD. USALS works well most of the time. This is one of the first VS Xtremes ever produced, when I got it I don't even think there were hack files for this one. Due to age and the amount of blindscanning I do the Xtreme will be eventually replaced with a Traxis, but it does work well. Overall Xtreme and Viewsat Ultras work well for True FTA.

Viewsat Platinum: The blindscan is beyond snail slow but it does work. Too slow for feedhunting by far. Works fine for fixed programming, USALS works well and picture is good.

Fortec Lifetime Ultra: Slow blindscan. Good picture. Can be used for feedhunting but not ideal. Slow to respond in any case. Works for fixed programming.

CNX: Would only run one of these for fixed programming based on reports of people I know that have tried them for true FTA use. Picture is supposed to be good.

Sonicview 8000HD: Another I do not personally have, but I hear good things about them for true FTA MPEG-2 HD use. Deals to be had right now.

Extremeview: I wouldn't give one of these to my worst enemy personally, but I do know a guy that has a sub card to some ethnic channel, I do not recall which, and the Extremeview will accept and run it. Many pirate boxes will not do this. So there could be limited market for a box with this capability.

So I guess in my opinion restoring a hack box to factory that you buy for a garage sale price can be a good way to get into the hobby or add a second receiver. I would recommend talking to someone that has used the model you are considering for true FTA use before spending much, make sure the box will work for your needs.

Craigslist is a great place to check. I've seen SD boxes go for as little as $10.

 

[whatchel1]

I like what ?134å said.

 

[zamar23]

I like it too. But the List is a good idea, just needs to be more differentiated on criteria set, like adding several receiver categories (best for blindscan, fixed reception, IKS, etc.) instead of just one category: "best for FTA", with separate cumulative columns for each receiver section.

 

[Tron]

I've been on EBay for almost 10 years buying things and I can count on one hand the times I've been screwed.

Same EBay experience here. I've been screwed a small number of times, and never for any large amount of money. Each time it was something annoyingly trivial. On the other hand, I have profited greatly in terms of equipment and experience as an EBay member. YMMV, of course...

Please explain the court ruling.

Probably the Coolsat case, since these receivers were based on the same hardware as the 6000/7000 series Coolsats.

 

[Auric]

I've been on EBay for almost 10 years buying things and I can count on one hand the times I've been screwed. 3 were for some old wrestling tapes. I havent had any issues with FTA equipment and I've purchased numerous receivers on Ebay.

I guess I've made up for you. I too have been on 10 years. My recent ordeal was a nice Dish 1000 I wanted as a toy like Phlat made. I bought the LNB form a gold sponsor. I bought the motor from another gold sponsor. I just needed a cheap elliptical dish

I won the auction, paid for the item, 10 days later nothing. I sent an email, 3 days later no response, I filed a complaint with paypal, they said I would have to wait a month. I called the CC company (I have actually been screwed so many times I only pay with a credit card) & filed a charge back.

To me ebay is a place for thieves. I know there are reputable companies there, like some of our gold sponsors. It sure seems few & far between though to find one

 

[Dee_Ann]

Considering that I'm probably moving to Australia next year, will my satellite pc tuner and antenna tuners (the brand is hauppage I think) and my Coolsat 6000 work on Aussie satellite? Or will I have to sell them and buy new stuff down there?

I heard they use a way different kind of tv system that isn't compatible with US stuff.