Toshiba HD-DVD doesn't support DTSHD or DTS Master?

[JoeSp]

Decided yesterday to go into the newest Circuit City to check out their new HD-DVD display. It was nice but it was not playing any demos. No one could tell me why. So I decided to look at the players as they were showing a $200 off on both Toshiba's that they carry. Here is were it gets interesting -- neither player supports DTS-HD or DTS-Master. Just DTS!!

What is going on here? I looked at the players and sure enough they state on the faceplate DTS and that is it. The boxes also state DTS only. They list TrueDolbyHD, DolbyPlus, DTS, Dobly Digital5.1 and that is it?

So, if this is true, what happened to the DTS-HD and DTS-MasterHD support? And if the players are going to support it why not put it on the box and on the faceplate? Seems, Toshiba is cutting their losses here. Why support something that is not out yet and you do not have the space to put it on your discs? You can not do both TrueDolbyHD and DTS-MasterLosslessHD on the same HD-DVD disks.

Guess this means that when DTS-MasterLosslessHD is available this fall (available right now with an Onkyo receiver and a PS3) then HD-DVD owners will not have to worry about weather or not their player will play that format -- guessing it won't because their current players do not support it now.

 

[diogen]

Could you specify what those players were?
And what do you mean by "neither player supports DTS-HD or DTS-Master" ?
Can't decode? Can't encode? Can't pass as bitstream?

Do you know that neither format has them as mandatory?
Do you know that many Warner movies have a DD+ soundtrack on HD and just a DD soundtrack on BD for the same movie?
Do you know that DD+ in mandatory on HD and not so on BD?

Diogen.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Ah, where do we start?

Decided yesterday to go into the newest Circuit City to check out their new HD-DVD display. It was nice but it was not playing any demos. No one could tell me why. So I decided to look at the players as they were showing a $200 off on both Toshiba's that they carry. Here is were it gets interesting -- neither player supports DTS-HD or DTS-Master. Just DTS!!

OK, yes, that's correct. No HD DVD player currently supports DST HD or HD-MA. And no Blu-ray player nor the PS3 support HD-MA. Only the Panasonic players support DTS HD, but cannot do HD-MA.

The HD DVD specs require all standalone players to decode & output 1 of the 2 HD audio codecs. The Toshiba players support Dolby TrueHD. The upcoming Onkyo HD DVD player is rumored to also support DTS HD-MA, as do their new line of receivers.

The BDA specs do not require blu-ray players to decode any HD audio codecs. That's why you end up with a mishmash and individual companies deciding if they want to have their player to support either codec, strictly for competitive reason - instead of standardized specs.

No U.S. HD DVD release has ever used DTS HD-MA, only TrueHD.
Only Fox & Lionsgate have used HD-MA on blu-ray releases. And the fact remains that no consumer has ever been able to hear those HD-MA audio tracks in full resolution.

What is going on here? I looked at the players and sure enough they state on the faceplate DTS and that is it. The boxes also state DTS only. They list TrueDolbyHD, DolbyPlus, DTS, Dobly Digital5.1 and that is it?

Please see above. And please show me the faceplate of a blu-ray player that lists DTS HD-MA.

So, if this is true, what happened to the DTS-HD and DTS-MasterHD support?

My guess is that it is a "bone" that both HD DVD & Blu-ray threw to the CE companies making audio equipment to keep them happy & quiet. In early DVD players - and cheap later ones - you needed a good A/V receiver to properly decode DTS. With both HD DVD and some BD players doing an excellent job of decoding audio codecs, the A/V receiver was going to be a glorified amplifier. So, they left out DTS HD-MA and suddenly you're seeing a crop of new receivers proudly touting HDMI 1.3 and decoding of both TrueHD and DTS HD-MA - even though no high def player can currently output either audio codec to the receiver for decoding. It's called Marketing.

Guess this means that when DTS-MasterLosslessHD is available this fall (available right now with an Onkyo receiver and a PS3) then HD-DVD owners will not have to worry about weather or not their player will play that format -- guessing it won't because their current players do not support it now.

Well now, that's interesting - because I own a HD DVD player and a PS3, and my new Onkyo 605 receiver delivered yesterday. I haven't had a chance to try the PS3 on it yet, but going by the posts of "paidgeek", a Sony insider who post on both AVS and blu-ray.com, I'm not holding my breath:

Link
Quote:
Originally Posted by NutsAboutPS3 View Post
Does this mean that DTS HD MA decoding will definitely be added to the PS3 in a future firmware update?

It is under consideration, but can't be guaranteed to be coming.

As I've said, I believe receivers with HDMI 1.3 & TrueHD / DTS HD-MA decoding is pretty much marketing hype for now. But, I wanted a receiver with HDMI audio and my previous receiver lasted me for over 6 years, and I wanted it's replacement to do the same. So, I went with the 605 as more "future proof". ANd I ended up getting from an online retailer for a little less than CC wanted for the 604.

BTW, the Tuscon CC was playing an HD DVD demo yesterday when I returned the 604 under their 30 day return policy.

 

[diogen]

Ah, where do we start?

From my discussions with JoeSp over the last few weeks, reality is not what counts for him.
Take for example this argument:

If M$ is involved in the deal you can bet that these players will not meet all the HD-DVD standards. Their current HD-DVD drive does not support any of the new audio codecs.

Completely out of the blue, nothing to do with reality...
He ignores arguments against this, and keeps repeating the same...

Same about color spaces, HDMI 1.3, 36bit video, etc.

It must me nice living in an imaginary world.

Diogen.

 

[JoeSp]

CochiseGuy, The reason I post this was because I thought that the Toshiba HD-DVD supported DTSMASTER-HD. I was surprised to see that it does not. Seems most HD-DVD supporters blast the PS3 for non support of the DTSMasterHD codec when HD-DVD has no intention of supporting the new codec at all.

As for the PS3 support I am in the same boat looking in the same direction as you. It is my understanding from reading some tech notes on the PS3 that while it cannot pass the full 7.1 DTSMasterHD audio either decoded or not it is able to pass DTSMasterHD 5.1 undecoded thru the HDMI port if you have a receiver that can decode it. Since you have made that purchase you can find out.

This makes sense since the PS3 can already pull DTS 5.1 losseless out of the audio file and play back as DTS at its full bit rate over the HDMI. My guess is you might find that it can indeed pass the DTSMasterHD undecoded file to your receiver for decoding but only the 5.1 core of the file and not the full 7.1.

Let me know how your testing works out. I am looking at replacing my Denon with one of the new Onkyo's. Also, let me know how you like that Onkyo. Congradts on the purchase.:

 

[Ilya]

HD DVD players support DD+ (which is mandatatory) and starting with version 2.0 (for the first-gen players) they fully support decoding of Dolby TrueHD.
DTS-HD MA decoding is supported, but only at its core (DTS) level, which is inferior to DD+.

Note, that for current titles, Dolby TrueHD support is much more important than DTS-HD MA.

 

[diogen]

...when HD-DVD has no intention of supporting the new codec at all.

Case in point: what does this statement is based upon?

Very JoeSp-like.

Diogen.

 

[harshness]

I see no point in treating multichannel content with audiophile specifications. Most multichannel audio is either synthesized electronically or done with transducers considerably less capable than studio microphones.

I claim that for a large percentage of the content, it is all academic. Look at all of the hoopla surrounding quadraphonic LPs and see if any of it makes any sense in hindsight.

 

[teachsac]

HD DVD players support DD+ (which is mandatatory) and starting with version 2.0 (for the first-gen players) they fully support decoding of Dolby TrueHD.
DTS-HD MA decoding is supported, but only at its core (DTS) level, which is inferior to DD+.

Note, that for current titles, Dolby TrueHD support is much more important than DTS-HD MA.

True, I can't think of any HD-DVD's, at least features, that use DTS-HD or Master. It's either DD+(Universal and Paramount) or Dolby TrueHD.

On the other hand, Fox and Lionsgate have chosen to use DTSHD and Master when up until recently no player supported. The DTS Master specs and chip sets have been delayed and pushed back production. It's great to have specs and put out movies, but if hardware doesn't support it, what's the point. Dolby was ahead of the game. Uncompressed PCM is nice, old, reliable technology, but takes up way too much space on a disk.

S~

 

[Ilya]

True, I can't think of any HD-DVD's, at least features, that use DTS-HD or Master. It's either DD+(Universal and Paramount) or Dolby TrueHD.

This might be more of an issue in Europe, where some studios, like StudioCanal, for example, decided to use DTS-HD Soundtrack exclusively. Which means you might be stuck with DTS core for those HD DVD titles.

 

[CochiseGuy]

This might be more of an issue in Europe, where some studios, like StudioCanal, for example, decided to use DTS-HD Soundtrack exclusively. Which means you might be stuck with DTS core for those HD DVD titles.

Yes, and I bought my first Studio Canal (SC) - The Brotherhood of the Wolf (Le Pacte des Loups), with DTS HD-MA. I played around with my XA1, having it output HDMI audio via Bitstream for my Onkyo 605 to decode, and then back to PCM for my XA1 to decode. Oddly, the display on the Onkyo read "PCM" both ways, and the sound was noticeably better with the output set to PCM. As I understand it my XA1 is only decoding the DTS 'core' at 1.5mbs, but either the SC encoding was excellent or the Onkyo is a significant improvement over my 6+ yr. old Sony receiver, 'cause the surround sound was terrific. :up

I also tried another Euro import - Harry Potter & the Goblet of Fire with TrueHD. Nope, the TrueHD can't be sent to the Onkyo for decoding either.

I'll try some of my Fox titles with DTS HD-MA on my PS3 with the Onkyo. I'm pretty sure it will be the same as the XA1 - I'll only get the DTS core. But, at least there's a possibility the PS3 might be upgradable with Firmware to do it in the future.

As I said, I didn't buy the Onkyo 605 believing I'd be immediately able to make use of its TrueHD & HD-MA decoding capability, but more as "future proofing" my receiver upgrade. So far I likey!

 

[JoeSp]

CochiseGuy, I just read a review on Amazon where the reviewer puchased the Onkyo 805. He stated that with a PS3 he was able to decode the DTS Master HD thru his Onkyo. I e-mailed him for more information but he has not e-mailed me back.

Currently both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray play back the DTS lossey core at 1.5mbps from the DTS Master HD. It should still be possible to playback the DTS Master HD track thru your Onkyo 605.

Also in a previous post I posted a site on how the current high def players will decode DolbyTrueHD and DTSMaster-HD to PCM and send that to the receiver for playback. This might explain why your reciever is showing a PCM signal when playing the HD audio track.

 

[teachsac]

Interesting since "paidgeek" said for a fact that the PS3 will not output bitstream DTSHD MAster for the receiver to decode and all of the 805 and 605 owners said that it won't either. This was due tio hardware limitations when the system was built and designed. When owners set the PS3 output to PCM it outputs the DTS core and the receiver panel states PCM Multi channel. When it is set to auto, the only thing that lights up is DTS, not DTS HD Master.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

CochiseGuy, I just read a review on Amazon where the reviewer puchased the Onkyo 805. He stated that with a PS3 he was able to decode the DTS Master HD thru his Onkyo. I e-mailed him for more information but he has not e-mailed me back.

You mean this guy?

By PulpFiction4life
I did purchase Speed on Blu Ray and I can tell you from what I heard, the future of High Definition Audio is here in this Onkyo TX-SR805! Every detail that they mixed into the movie's original track is encoded into DTS HD. It's literally translated from the original format without any loss of quality. It's ridiculous how amazing it sounds.

I don't thinks he's saying the 805 decoded it, just that it sounded great. And actually Speed has DTS HD-MA, not just DTS HD.

Currently both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray play back the DTS lossey core at 1.5mbps from the DTS Master HD. It should still be possible to playback the DTS Master HD track thru your Onkyo 605.

Also in a previous post I posted a site on how the current high def players will decode DolbyTrueHD and DTSMaster-HD to PCM and send that to the receiver for playback. This might explain why your reciever is showing a PCM signal when playing the HD audio track.

Yes, that's how I understand it. If an HD DVD / Blu-ray player is decoding the audio, it sends it to the receiver as PCM, and that's what you see on the display. If you change the player's output to Bitsream, the receiver will decode it and you'll see the audio codec the receiver is receiving and decoding.

I'm not clear on this either: I know the PS3 cannot decode full DTS HD-MA, but I haven't seen it in black & white if it can decode DTS HD and/or send that to the receiver. I just got some Fox titles in and will play around with it this weekend.

I found this chart on DTS.com that gives a good description of the differences between DTS , DTS HD, and DTS HD-MA, and how they're implemented on HD DVD / Blu-ray:

 

[teachsac]

I'm not clear on this either: I know the PS3 cannot decode full DTS HD-MA, but I haven't seen it in black & white if it can decode DTS HD and/or send that to the receiver. I just got some Fox titles in and will play around with it this weekend.

The answer is no. The PS3 cannont decode any form of DTSHD whether it is the lossy format or the Lossless. It cannot send it to the receiver for decoding either. Paidgeek verified that over at AVS. Bitstream output is an optional component of HDMI 1.3 and was not adopted due to hardware limitations when the system was designed. People just put 1+1 together and came up with their own assumptions.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

The answer is no. The PS3 cannont decode any form of DTSHD whether it is the lossy format or the Lossless. It cannot send it to the receiver for decoding either. Paidgeek verified that over at AVS. Bitstream output is an optional component of HDMI 1.3 and was not adopted due to hardware limitations when the system was designed. People just put 1+1 together and came up with their own assumptions.

S~

Thanks for putting it in Black & White.

Your Panasonic BD-10 can do DTS HD, right? Any comments on how it sounds? A noticeable improvement over DTS core?

 

[teachsac]

Thanks for putting it in Black & White.

Your Panasonic BD-10 can do DTS HD, right? Any comments on how it sounds? A noticeable improvement over DTS core?

The Panasonic does do DTS-HD. It sounds really nice when the track uses DTS-HD. When the track is DTSHD MAster, it extracts the core just like every other player out there. It sounds nice also.

I think the only hope for the PS3 is if they are able to do a software layer for decoding DTS-Master.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

The Panasonic does do DTS-HD. It sounds really nice when the track uses DTS-HD. When the track is DTSHD MAster, it extracts the core just like every other player out there. It sounds nice also.

S~

That's discouraging.

From what I'd read, I thought DTS could be picked apart 'piece by piece' - if a player could do DTS HD, it could decode that out of HD-MA, like DTS is decoded out of DTS MA-HD.

 

[JoeSp]

Teachsac, quote from you:

"Interesting since "paidgeek" said for a fact that the PS3 will not output bitstream DTSHD MAster for the receiver to decode and all of the 805 and 605 owners said that it won't either."

I am very interested in the 805 and I have not been able to find this product for sale yet. Where did the 805 owners say they got their Onkyo 805 at? I read that this unit was delayed till July but if someone has it for sale I am ready to buy!

 

[teachsac]

Teachsac, quote from you:

"Interesting since "paidgeek" said for a fact that the PS3 will not output bitstream DTSHD MAster for the receiver to decode and all of the 805 and 605 owners said that it won't either."

I am very interested in the 805 and I have not been able to find this product for sale yet. Where did the 805 owners say they got their Onkyo 805 at? I read that this unit was delayed till July but if someone has it for sale I am ready to buy!

Sorry. I couldn't tell you. I just read the Forums over at AVS. Some owners are reporting audio popping over HDMi, though.

S~