Give it a rest,anything you have to say has been covered, A Number of times. Your a little late! Thanks for your fast responce though
Likelihood of failure of non-burial grade coax?
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But it should include everything to meet local codes or things mandated by the company paying the installer.
If local codes say underground stuff has to be in conduit, or if Dish/DirectTV says that in their agreement, then the basic install should include that. If no code or Dish/DirectTV instructions require conduit, then that should be an extra charge to the customer. Optional at customers expense, if agreed upon by the installer. Even if the customer is willing to pay for optional work, I don't think the installer would have to agree to do that work unless they wanted to.
But if something was done contrary to local code, I think the municipality would have good reason to go after the installer. Even if the installer claims "that's not part of a basic install". Meeting code is not something you can just blow off because you don't think you're getting paid enough, is it?
I understand both sides of the argument. As a technician myself, I take great pride in my work, and complete every job as if it were in my own home. I'm well aware that there are MANY folks who do installations (notice I didn't say technicians...there's a difference between an installer and a technician), who don't do things to E* OR D* codes, let alone anything else above and beyond that. Pay for the installers varies from company to company, but for the company that I work for, we don't get paid by the hour, we're paid by the job. A 4 room installation takes AT LEAST 3 to 4 hours if done right, and we get paid about 50 bucks. The bonus for our techs anyways, is that the company provides everything as far as all the parts and pieces and materials. And to answer the OPs ?.... We DO NOT use direct burial cable, never have, and probably never will. I've beein doing installations and service work for about 5 years now, and have never seen a system failure due to the sole fact that non-burial-rated cable had been buried...without some other outside factor such as a splice, or the cable was knicked or cut when buried. In my professional opinion, it's an unnecessary expense. There's nothing wrong with using direct burial wire, and it can do nothing but help give piece of mind and increase the reliability of the system. But, for practical purposes, it's not necessary. The only reason it even exists is because some egghead in an office somewhere said, "hey...let's make this special cable with this gel crap in it and a thicker outer jacket, and then market it so that people will have to use it when they bury cable." SO then they lobby to the NEC commission( yes I know, they only do electrical codes), or whoever decides codes and such, and said, "hey, Our studies show that this non-burial-rated cable fails after X number of years in the dirt. You need to tell everyone in the industry to start using our stuff cuz it's better." And of course, money changes hands and PRESTO! Now it's code to start using the flooded cable. Don't you just love free enterprise?!?!?!
Anywho...getting back to point. Doing more work than is required as part of the "basic" install (which can vary from company to company) is up to the discretion of the technician. If he has time to do it, then he is more than allowed to do so. However, when techs are routed 4 or more installs per day at 3 or more hours each, it's hard to be able to do things like bury cable in conduit and use screw clips to fasten wire to every other floor joist in the crawl space. Should these things been done at all? - Probably, in certain cases. Who pays for it? - The customer should pay for it, IF it's above and beyond what's outlined in the standard installation. Now, if the customer is THAT concerned about what's included in the standard installation, then they should read the service agreement before the installation begins, and negotiate additional terms. The monthly service cost that a customer pays is for programming only, and to keep the lights on at E* and D*. In most cases, installation is always free to the customer. The only time a customer is charged is if they go thru a retailer, in which case the retailer is free to charge the customer whatever they feel is appropriate for the installation. I've heard stories of people being charged $200 or more, which I think is ridiculous, but that's another topic.
So.....I said all that to say this.....Is direct burial cable required - no. Should it be used - can't hurt, but not necessary. Should wire be placed in conduit whether direct burial or not - yes, IF the cable crosses a driveway, otherwise, it's unnecessary, regardless of what a city or township code may say. The code is only there for liability to protect the city or township. If the wire is put in the ground by the customer or a non-public utility, i.e. E*, then there is no record of it like there is for phone cables and such. If you are going to dig, you're supposed to call the phone company and ask them where they ran the lines so you don't cut them, then they will come out and mark their location. With satellite installations, that's not the case. So if the city goes out and has to dig up a water line and they cut your cable, then they have to pay to replace it. If it's in conduit, then the cable is somewhat protected, and they are less likely to damage the wire before they notice it's there. It's all about liability and someone covering someone else's ass. $$$$$$
Anywho...getting back to point. Doing more work than is required as part of the "basic" install (which can vary from company to company) is up to the discretion of the technician. If he has time to do it, then he is more than allowed to do so. However, when techs are routed 4 or more installs per day at 3 or more hours each, it's hard to be able to do things like bury cable in conduit and use screw clips to fasten wire to every other floor joist in the crawl space. Should these things been done at all? - Probably, in certain cases. Who pays for it? - The customer should pay for it, IF it's above and beyond what's outlined in the standard installation. Now, if the customer is THAT concerned about what's included in the standard installation, then they should read the service agreement before the installation begins, and negotiate additional terms. The monthly service cost that a customer pays is for programming only, and to keep the lights on at E* and D*. In most cases, installation is always free to the customer. The only time a customer is charged is if they go thru a retailer, in which case the retailer is free to charge the customer whatever they feel is appropriate for the installation. I've heard stories of people being charged $200 or more, which I think is ridiculous, but that's another topic.
So.....I said all that to say this.....Is direct burial cable required - no. Should it be used - can't hurt, but not necessary. Should wire be placed in conduit whether direct burial or not - yes, IF the cable crosses a driveway, otherwise, it's unnecessary, regardless of what a city or township code may say. The code is only there for liability to protect the city or township. If the wire is put in the ground by the customer or a non-public utility, i.e. E*, then there is no record of it like there is for phone cables and such. If you are going to dig, you're supposed to call the phone company and ask them where they ran the lines so you don't cut them, then they will come out and mark their location. With satellite installations, that's not the case. So if the city goes out and has to dig up a water line and they cut your cable, then they have to pay to replace it. If it's in conduit, then the cable is somewhat protected, and they are less likely to damage the wire before they notice it's there. It's all about liability and someone covering someone else's ass. $$$$$$
Look do you feel that it is fair that you get something for free when another customer has to pay for it? Every provider has things that are not included in an install. If you are to far away from the road your local phone company or cable company will charge you extra for the install. If your local area requires the cable be put in conduit, and it is not part of the install from a service, then the customer is going to have to pay for it.
Sears installs water softners, it only includes 10' of copper plumbing to install it. After that the installer charges $5.00 a foot for install. It's the same in every industry that does installations. When you see an install that says it includes everything, I will bet you it was not FREE.
An informed consumer would know that my area requires that conduit be used if cable has to be out in the ground. They would also know that the provider does not include that in the BASIC install. Thus an informed consumer would know that they are going to have to pay additional fees if the cable needs to be put in the ground.
There is no rational argument for this. It is clearly stated what is included and what is not included. No where in the service agreement does it state that unless local codes require the installer does it for free. THe consumer is responsible to know what they are getting when they order or buy something. It would be no different then buying an HD tv and then saying well Sony should provide me with HD programing for free.
Yeah, I hate it when I go to the hospital and have to pay $20k because I can afford it, and some other guy goes in there and gets treated for free. Free, because that $20k I had to pay was a massive overcharge for what I actually received. And also because I pay taxes that help support others. You're right - it's not fair.
It's called spreading the cost around. It works the same way with many things. I might pay every insurance premium on time and never get a penny out of it if I file no claims. Those premiums are based on average/expected claims. Some customers get more payout in the end, some get less.
So by that logic, a home buyer would need to know every code that governs the building of their house? And therefore expect to pay more than the contracted sale price of their home when some sub-contractor whines that a two story house requires more exhaust ducting for the furnace than single story home?
You're saying that a customer is supposed to know every piece and part of a satellite installation and the various codes that govern it? If Dish tells me that the "basic installation" or whatever you want to call it is free, any reasonable person would assume that means (1) after installation, things would work, and (2) they would work safely. Cosmetic and other optional stuff, sure, they'd have to pay extra for. But the basic installation should include (1) and (2).
Municipal codes are written to spell out what is considered safe in that locality. When I hire a heating contractor to replace my furnace, I do not need to research all the codes that relate to this piece of hardware and the safe way to install it. That's why I'm hiring someone to do it and not doing it myself.
Some people just shouldn't be installers IMHO. You have to be knowledgeable and responsible enough to complete your work so it's done properly and will function in a safe manner. If you negotiate a price for you work with some company like Dish and you underbid yourself not considering that some jobs will be cheaper or more expensive than others, that's your problem not the poor customers.
By the way,The Customer is always right. I have to live by this phrase with my business! So should everyone else. And In construction Its not the Homeowners "job" to know the code book. Its the contractor that was hired for the job,thats supposed to know. If inspection fails They come back and fix it for FREE. Thats what happends when its not done right the first time. And all Townships and developments Have different codes to follow. Whether you agree or not ! Do your job right ,bottom line. Remember that the next time you leave a homeowners house without Grounding the system. That You Get PAID to do!
You just supported my statement. Do you want your Dish or Direct bill to increase because now they have to cover all these extras for costs for other people. Or is it more fair that the people that need these extra services pay for it themselves. Just like the cable companies charging you every month for service you may never receive.
Again the contractor would come to you and say your area requires extra work, you will have to pay more as it was not included in the service agreement. The same thing we keep going around and around on.
No I never said a customer needs to know every code and parts needed to install anything. I said they should be informed consumers and know what they are purchasing. If they know their area requires extra work, they should see if what they bought includes that. An installer is resposible to inform the customer of this before installation as well. What we keep going on about is ADDITIONAL work not included in the service agreement. That and the fact the someone wanted additional work done but refused to pay for it.
No but it is your resposibilty to make sure that you know what you are purchasing. If the contractor comes to you and says that there are extra costs in your installation due to extra codes in your area, you have to pay them, or not get the work done.
I don't think that any of the installers on here will disagree with you on this. There are to many installers that do crap work, and it makes it very hard for the good installers. There are also installers that charge for things that they should not, because the customer does not know what they bought to begin with. These are the reasons that honest installers get such a hard time from people.
What does the contract with what Dish or Direct pays for an install have to do with it. This whole thing again is about someone wanting additional work done, but does not feel they should have to pay for that additional work. Just because your area has a code that requires additional work does not mean that the contractor has to do that additional work for free.
There is no doubt that the customer is right and should get what they pay for. Nobody should put up with shotty work, or work that is incomplete. This does not mean that the customer should get something they did not pay for either.
What we are going on about is something that is not included in an installation. Would be no different than going to McDonalds and ordering a #1 value meal. You know that value meal comes with a Big Mac, Medium fry, and a medium drink. Then you say hey where is my Apple pie, and the person a McDonalds says you did not pay for an apple pie. You say well I think I should get that free because I ordered a value meal, and I think a value meal should include an apple pie just for me.
No one is talking about "...well I think..." except you. We are talking about "...code REQUIRES this..."
I'm sure if Dish is paying you to do an install then they expect you do do it and meet local codes. Is this the point you are arguing? That Dish does not expect you to meet code and the customer is supposed to pick up the additional tab for you to do so? I highly doubt that, but if you say this is fact then I guess we'll have to believe you. You're an installer after all.
I have no idea how much Dish pays you to do an install. And it's none of my business. I entered a contract with Dish and I'm paying them. They entered a contract with you and they're paying you. Of course the install is not "free" - Dish is paying you after all. Dish may wish to market this to me as a "free" deal, but of course I'm paying for it bundled in with my startup charges and commitments to keep programming for some period of time.
I am kind of glad that you weren't my installer. No offense intended, but I think that might have been a nightmare given some of your previous comments. My last install was a simple upgrade to a 722. The installer brought that out (I hooked it up), and then the installer replaced my existing dish with some different model. I helped him buzz the cables to identify them because some of them were no longer required. Didn't take him long at all. He noticed that my original install was missing a grounding block and drip loops where the cables entered the house (a code violation I believe, but I didn't know that when it was done). He added the required stuff to make the install legit. I don't know what he was paid by Dish for that, but I gave him a $40 tip on top of whatever Dish's payment was.
No need debating this further. You have your idea of what a legitimate "basic install" is, and I have mine. We don't agree. I have no problem with that since you weren't my installer.
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UM! Not even close to the same! WOW! McDonalds! Com'on. You have a better chance of getting that apple pie for free,then getting a grounding block,thats really grounded from D* or E* Thats been paid for!
you are bringing things into this argument that do not apply. There is no "bidding" for jobs. Our compensation from Dish is fixed. There are items that are included in a basic install. PVC or other conduit is NOT.
I don't believe any town has the staff nor the time to go around inspecting satellite or cable installations. If so, the residents of those places must pay confiscartory taxes.
Additionally, if your community required permits for every install of a satellite system or burial of cable for CATV, there would most likely very few customers of those services. Who in their right mind would want to pay these exhorbitant nanny state fees?..No one..Inspectors carrying guns? Where do you live, Buzzard Falls, Idaho?
Her's where your argument runs off the tracks. The customer is expecting a free install. That, in the case of Dish newtork does NOT include conduit. If your town requires conduit and permitting the customer must pay for that. If they balk, then according to the rules they will not get the services. What you are missing in your eagerness to contribute, is that the argument here is the conduiut should be provided by the tech at the tech's expense free of charge. None of us will do that. That's a promise. So the people in your town who want Dish and need pole mounts and cables buried are sh*t out of luck if they think they are getting it done for free. Their argument is not with us or Dish, it is with your nit picky horsehit town politicians who came up with those ridiculous regulations.
"free installation with no caveats they should get it regardless of the installer's cost."..That is patently false..
A free basic installation includes up to 200 feet of cable,assemmbly of dishes and mounts, NEC ground: peaking of the satellite dish for optimum performance;routing of cable through ONE wall penetration, testing or Equipment for proper operation..
Materials:Up to 200 ft of rg-6 coaxial cable;connectors; grounding parts; sealant for weather protection( i,e, silicone for roof mounts);standard mounting hardware; burial and trenching of up to 50' of cable. That is ALL that included in a standard basic free install.
Now if you can find where Dish demands a tech eat the cost and additonal labor for PVC pipe/ conduit, knock yourself out.
Plus, I don't ever hear about someone getting money back from the installer company because their install was exceptionally easy. By the logic that extra costs should be borne solely by the customer, shouldn't the customer get a rebate if their install goes really quick? Let's say all their cable and connections are already installed and all the installer has to do is throw on the dish and hook up the box. Takes all of a half an hour. What kind of rebate does the customer deserve in that situation? And wouldn't all you 'techs' ridicule them for asking for one? The truth is you should make money on most jobs but not necessarily all. Unless you go to a structure where all jobs are bid individually (a very expensive way of doing business which would be very costly to the consumer), you aren't going to make as much money on some jobs as others, and on some you should expect to lose money. As long as you make a decent profit overall you shouldn't complain about the ones that cost more.
you aren't going to make as much money on some jobs as others, and on some you should expect to lose money.
LOSE money?!!! I should expect to go out to a job and LOSE money? I should do this willingly?!!! Are you crazy?!!!
Ya know what? After reading that, I am convinced you have no clue what it takes to run a bsuiness. First off, sunshine ,the customer does not pay for the install unless there is work required outside the scope of the workorder and/or the install requires anything not included in the Dish Network Service Agreement. Whether or not the hiouse is prewired (as most are these days) is immaterail and irrelevant. The fatc of the matter is once we connect the satellite EQ to the interior wiring of the customer's home we become responsible for it. So if it fails, we have to reapir/ replace it for free. We are compensated for assuming that responsibilty. So your asertuion that we should give the customer money or Dish should rebate the customer for owning a prewired home or we should be paid less is ridiculous.
"Now personally, I think if you have to dig a trench to install a cable you've done 90% of the work and incurred most of the costs already. If digging the trench was included in the price of the install then so should the pvc. ..... Oh really?..I should eat the cost because YOU say so?. Tell ya what, why don't you bend over and grab you ankles. Because that is exactly what you are demanding us to do in order to satisfy your whims.
Try as you may, you're not going to get this stuff done for free. And if you do ever get it for free, it'll be at your risk. One thing you people forget is you get what you pay for. Remember that when some idiot service guy comes to wort on your home that you wanted it cheap or free.
The more I read of your post ,the more I think you are typical of the very small percentage of consumers who want chapaigne on a beer budget. Fine. But don't expect Nordstrom's service at WalMart. You'll not get it from any of us qualified, certified professionals.
I am thorugh with this nany state socialist. Go to a jib and expect to lose money...This guy is out in LA LA land...I wonder if he goes to his boss and says "hey ,don't pay me today, I want to work for free. In fact, here's my wallet, take the money, I wanted to do the noble thing and LOSE money today"...
What a friggin douchebag..He expects us to go out and take food off our own table...
I just better get out of this thread before I write soemthing the gets the mod's attention..
If it was this guy's intent to infuriate someone in the business with his insane ideas, he succeded.
the description of a basic install is clearly defined on the reverse side of the Dish Network Service Agreement form..It is NOT my opinion. It is fact.
My "Well I Think" Is no different then your statement "If Dish tells me that the "basic installation" or whatever you want to call it is free, any reasonable person would assume".
You are correct Dish does expect that the installation meets code. What they do not do is say that if there is a code that requires special work to be done to meet that code, that costs extra money, that the installer has to do it free. Nor does your code state that the special requirement has to be provided for free.
Again as it has been stated several times, Dish and I am sure Direct, clearly state what is included in the BASIC installation. As many have said if something that is not included in the basic install then customer can be billed for this extra service. This is up to the installer if he will charge or not. Depending on the costs and time involed, I doubt that you would find any installer to do this amount of extra work for free.
No you get it free. You would pay the same price for the programming if you were to buy the equipment and installed it yourself. Certainly Dish would love that you do that, as it would save them from paying an installer.
Sounds like you had an installer exactly like me. You see there is alot of times that installers are bashed on these forums. Misinformation is spread around. Things are stated as fact that are not. But when we stand up and defend ourselfs, then we are called everything from hacks to whatever. Some installers that don't belong in the business deserve this, but there are alot of us out there that work very hard to give the customer what they want that don't.
Also most of my comments have been pretty much appropriate for the post that was before it. I did get a bit sharp tounged with Hemi at the begining of this thread, but his comments were basically calling people slobs and hacks for doing exactly as he had instructed. To tell an installer to just leave the cable above ground, he would do the work because he did not want to pay the extra charge. Then to call the company and complain that the cable was left above ground is low. Then to have his attitude was the reason for the way I replied. For this I should have been more professional and I apoligize. I think if you read this board long enough you can see why some installers get very upset about posts like that.
Your correct there is really no need to debate this further. I and others have stated the facts as to what is included in a basic installation. You have stated what your "IDEA" of a basic install is.
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Can you post a copy? Please! I want to see what it says about grounding the system.
i would run the coax in conduit, if it ever fails you just pull new coax.
conduit is cheap, and can be buried shallow. since its mechanically protected.
conduit is cheap, and can be buried shallow. since its mechanically protected.
http://www.dbsinstall.com/DNI/DNI_Standards_2.asp..that link is just a gerneral guide to a DBS install. In it you'll find standard and non standard descriptions of proper grounding..
This link simply describes acceptable NEC grounding methods for a DBS system.......http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Installation/Grounding.htm.
Dish techs and contractor techs must follow these rules.
They are non negotiable.
IMPORTANT: The United States National Electrical Code specifies that coaxial cable that is exposed to lightning shall be connected to the grounding system of the building as close to the point of cable entry as possible.
With this in mind. Why don't E*and D* Techs follow any of these rule. I've yet to see a grounding block Grounded.! None of my systems are!
This is what I see as right.
[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]8. Route the grounding wire from the grounding block to the central building ground, and connect to the central building ground.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]8. Route the grounding wire from the grounding block to the central building ground, and connect to the central building ground.[/FONT]
