Likelihood of failure of non-burial grade coax?

[Hemi 6.1]

Just connecting the RG6 ground wire to an ungrounded grounding block is NOT following the rules.

 

[Liquidforce88]

MPORTANT: The United States National Electrical Code specifies that coaxial cable that is exposed to lightning shall be connected to the grounding system of the building as close to the point of cable entry as possible.

With this in mind. Why don't E*and D* Techs follow any of these rule. I've yet to see a grounding block Grounded.! None of my systems are!

This is why good installers have such a hard time. There are to many poor installers in the field, that get away with this kind of stuff. You have been lucky enough to get the poor installers and not the good ones.

Before somebody jumps on here and starts the retail vs. dnsc vs. subcontractor thing. It does not matter where the tech comes from that will say if they do a good job. You have good techs and you have dab techs, and they can work at any one of the above.

Here are what some grounds should look like.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

Exactly, I didn't say they are all bad . I'm just still waiting for a good one. But things don't get taken care of ,unless the right people are aware of the problem. I hear D* and E* main men sometimes stop in. Its not about doing everything for nothing ,Its lets do right to begin with. If everyone does the job like what I saw in your pictures,I most likly wouldn't even commented on how wire is laid in the ground. But I can stop at every house in a 25 mile radious ,and I bet about 2% look like that. Its sad!

 

[Hemi 6.1]

This is why good installers have such a hard time. There are to many poor installers in the field, that get away with this kind of stuff. You have been lucky enough to get the poor installers and not the good ones.

Before somebody jumps on here and starts the retail vs. dnsc vs. subcontractor thing. It does not matter where the tech comes from that will say if they do a good job. You have good techs and you have dab techs, and they can work at any one of the above.

Here are what some grounds should look like.

Thats nice Work!

 

[haertig]

Here are what some grounds should look like.

Mine looks very much like your fourth picture (after being redone by the most recent installer). Except the green wire is connected to a separate rod that is sledgehammered pretty deep into the ground. Prior to the rework the cables just came down from the dish, made a shallow U, then went into the house. At least they were sealed with silicone where they went inside.

 

[dishcomm]

But it should include everything to meet local codes or things mandated by the company paying the installer.

If local codes say underground stuff has to be in conduit, or if Dish/DirectTV says that in their agreement, then the basic install should include that. If no code or Dish/DirectTV instructions require conduit, then that should be an extra charge to the customer. Optional at customers expense, if agreed upon by the installer. Even if the customer is willing to pay for optional work, I don't think the installer would have to agree to do that work unless they wanted to.

But if something was done contrary to local code, I think the municipality would have good reason to go after the installer. Even if the installer claims "that's not part of a basic install". Meeting code is not something you can just blow off because you don't think you're getting paid enough, is it?

Violation of local codes. A sticky situation. Do they really apply to satellite installs? Do municipalities have the right to make special codes for no other reason but to encumber a ceratin industry? Maybe not, but it happens all the time.
The bottom line is this; any time govt interferes with commerce, it usually ends up costing taxpayers and businesses lots of money and with absolutely no logic behind the regulations.
I don't care who it is. There is no one on the planet that is going to convince me that every piece of wire on the planet that is buried need to be in conduit. Not even the electrical primaries nor the services are buried in conduit here. No phone, no cable.
In some industrial applications, yes counduit is used to protect phoine and electrical lines. But not residential. Any municipality that requires buried coax ot be in conduit is entering into an area where they have no business entering. There is no logical reason to require ALL coax be inside conduit.
This nit picky nanny state interference from govt is referd to by conservatives as an "unfunded mandate".
This thread was started by one person who thinks that he is entitled to have his coax buried in condiut becasuer he thinks it is sloppy not to. He admitted he is unwliing to accept flooded cable as an alterantive. The OP also flip flopped on who should bear the cost of the material and additional labor.
Now this stupid can of worms has been opened and we have people chiming in who think because a code exists the person doing the work should eat the cost of the mandate. We have another poster who thinks it is just fine for a tech to go out on a job and EXPEXT to lose money. Apparently that poster is clueless as to how to run a business. The issue there is that poster is trying to rationalize his, shall we say "thriftyness"...A euphamism for cheapskate.
If there are places where codes require condiuit, then the customer as with any other type of construction should be financially resonsible for securing any required permits and bearing the cost of any additional materials and labor to comply with the codes. In other words, the municipality has regulated the cost and it is higher for those residents.
I wonder if the local cable operator in that town has every inch of their plant and service drops buried in conduit. I highly doubt it. The cost to the customers in programming fees would be prohibitive. Becsuse the cable company would surely pass the additoonal cost of materials and labor to the consumers.

 

[dishcomm]

Look do you feel that it is fair that you get something for free when another customer has to pay for it? Every provider has things that are not included in an install. If you are to far away from the road your local phone company or cable company will charge you extra for the install. If your local area requires the cable be put in conduit, and it is not part of the install from a service, then the customer is going to have to pay for it.

Sears installs water softners, it only includes 10' of copper plumbing to install it. After that the installer charges $5.00 a foot for install. It's the same in every industry that does installations. When you see an install that says it includes everything, I will bet you it was not FREE.

An informed consumer would know that my area requires that conduit be used if cable has to be out in the ground. They would also know that the provider does not include that in the BASIC install. Thus an informed consumer would know that they are going to have to pay additional fees if the cable needs to be put in the ground.

There is no rational argument for this. It is clearly stated what is included and what is not included. No where in the service agreement does it state that unless local codes require the installer does it for free. THe consumer is responsible to know what they are getting when they order or buy something. It would be no different then buying an HD tv and then saying well Sony should provide me with HD programing for free.

the point of this thread was the rptestaions of one poster who was incensed over the fact that conduit was not included in a basic install and he would have had to pay extra to get his way.
Why tv is looked upon differently from any other business is a mystery to me.
I maintin that if this keeps up, this trend toward customers not wanting ot pay for services rendered, the workmanship is going to out the window and good people will leave the business . At that point those who want everything for free will have only themsleves to blame.

 

[haertig]

I would have no problem if Dish stated up front, "We will provide a free basic installation that may not meet your local codes." That would be just fine with me - I would discuss the matter with Dish prior to ordering. And if I were an installer who showed up to do work and I knew codes would cause the customer to pay additional, then I would inform the customer first thing, before even starting. As an installer you really should know your local codes in advance and to save yourself effort - call the customer before even showing up at their door and point out the code vs. cost issue. If they declined to pay, I'd walk away from the install. I would think an installer would put their business at risk by knowingly completing a non-code-compliant installation, not matter what their reason.

I have never said that the contracted installer should eat the cost. My opinion is that Dish should eat it, if they fail to state something like the above when they're soliciting customers to sign up. Were I an installer, I'd very quickly get the customer in contact with Dish directly, and extricate myself from any negotiations. Best for the installer would be an option from Dish - flat rate for an install, or bill for time and materials (probably subject to pre-approval from Dish).

 

[dishcomm]

Yeah, I hate it when I go to the hospital and have to pay $20k because I can afford it, and some other guy goes in there and gets treated for free. Free, because that $20k I had to pay was a massive overcharge for what I actually received. And also because I pay taxes that help support others. You're right - it's not fair.

It's called spreading the cost around. It works the same way with many things. I might pay every insurance premium on time and never get a penny out of it if I file no claims. Those premiums are based on average/expected claims. Some customers get more payout in the end, some get less.


So by that logic, a home buyer would need to know every code that governs the building of their house? And therefore expect to pay more than the contracted sale price of their home when some sub-contractor whines that a two story house requires more exhaust ducting for the furnace than single story home?

You're saying that a customer is supposed to know every piece and part of a satellite installation and the various codes that govern it? If Dish tells me that the "basic installation" or whatever you want to call it is free, any reasonable person would assume that means (1) after installation, things would work, and (2) they would work safely. Cosmetic and other optional stuff, sure, they'd have to pay extra for. But the basic installation should include (1) and (2).

Municipal codes are written to spell out what is considered safe in that locality. When I hire a heating contractor to replace my furnace, I do not need to research all the codes that relate to this piece of hardware and the safe way to install it. That's why I'm hiring someone to do it and not doing it myself.

Some people just shouldn't be installers IMHO. You have to be knowledgeable and responsible enough to complete your work so it's done properly and will function in a safe manner. If you negotiate a price for you work with some company like Dish and you underbid yourself not considering that some jobs will be cheaper or more expensive than others, that's your problem not the poor customers.

I se you are still trying to rationalize your way out of the concept of a free basic install.
It isn't going to work. Both satellite compn aies have websites which explain in detail what is included in a free basic install. This covers the entire country. his information is also readily available on the respectuve websites of each satco. Any retailer who sells these systems has the duty ot pass along any information regarding what is included in a basic install. it is the customer who is spending their money. It is therefore up to the customer to practice due dilligence in finding out as much about their pruchase as possible. So yes, it is the customer's responsibilty to find out anythign they can before the make a purchase..
The satellite companies are NOT going to make special considerations for the tiny number of towns that require conduit for burial. If they did, those costs would be passed along to ALL subscribers in the form of higher programming costs. Should customers all customers have to pay more because a few hundred towns scattered across the country require something EXTRA?....No. Of course not. Those unfortunate enough to live in one of these nanny state towns will have to bear that cost alone.
We aren't eating the cost for the regulations of a few and that's that. You'll pay r you won't get it done.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

I se you are still trying to rationalize your way out of the concept of a free basic install.
It isn't going to work. Both satellite compn aies have websites which explain in detail what is included in a free basic install. This covers the entire country. his information is also readily available on the respectuve websites of each satco. Any retailer who sells these systems has the duty ot pass along any information regarding what is included in a basic install. it is the customer who is spending their money. It is therefore up to the customer to practice due dilligence in finding out as much about their pruchase as possible. So yes, it is the customer's responsibilty to find out anythign they can before the make a purchase..
The satellite companies are NOT going to make special considerations for the tiny number of towns that require conduit for burial. If they did, those costs would be passed along to ALL subscribers in the form of higher programming costs. Should customers all customers have to pay more because a few hundred towns scattered across the country require something EXTRA?....No. Of course not. Those unfortunate enough to live in one of these nanny state towns will have to bear that cost alone.
We aren't eating the cost for the regulations of a few and that's that. You'll pay r you won't get it done.

I think we really talked this out about as much as possible. I For one are not mad at all. But I think we can agree,That Satellite companys ,are most likly not to fair with their installers. And alot of Installers aren't doing the job as good as they used too. And its a direct reflection on D* and E*. Installers aren't happy with what they get paid,and D* and E* don't want to pay. The customer pays more now then ever,IMO. Fee's after Fee's,Lease after Lease, Comitment after Comitment. After all this ,we still have to pay for a Protection plan ,on equipment,we never own.And when you add Shotty work,who pays for that ? Is that part of the free install? I think I speak for majority, Its time to give the customer a break! Theres enough to worry about ,without adding problems with the Techs job on installing equipment. The customer pays well above and beyond!

 

[dishcomm]

I would have no problem if Dish stated up front, "We will provide a free basic installation that may not meet your local codes." That would be just fine with me - I would discuss the matter with Dish prior to ordering. And if I were an installer who showed up to do work and I knew codes would cause the customer to pay additional, then I would inform the customer first thing, before even starting. As an installer you really should know your local codes in advance and to save yourself effort - call the customer before even showing up at their door and point out the code vs. cost issue. If they declined to pay, I'd walk away from the install. I would think an installer would put their business at risk by knowingly completing a non-code-compliant installation, not matter what their reason.

I have never said that the contracted installer should eat the cost. My opinion is that Dish should eat it, if they fail to state something like the above when they're soliciting customers to sign up. Were I an installer, I'd very quickly get the customer in contact with Dish directly, and extricate myself from any negotiations. Best for the installer would be an option from Dish - flat rate for an install, or bill for time and materials (probably subject to pre-approval from Dish).

you may not have wanted the extra work for free but others either implied just that or demanded the freebie..That was the point of this thread. The OP was incensed he would have to pay for the extra materials and labor.

 

[dishcomm]

I think we really talked this out about as much as possible. I For one are not mad at all. But I think we can agree,That Satellite companys ,are most likly not to fair with their installers. And alot of Installers aren't doing the job as good as they used too. And its a direct reflection on D* and E*. Installers aren't happy with what they get paid,and D* and E* don't want to pay. The customer pays more now then ever,IMO. Fee's after Fee's,Lease after Lease, Comitment after Comitment. After all this ,we still have to pay for a Protection plan ,on equipment,we never own.And when you add Shotty work,who pays for that ? Is that part of the free install? I think I speak for majority, Its time to give the customer a break! Theres enough to worry about ,without adding problems with the Techs job on installing equipment. The customer pays well above and beyond!

well that's where you are wrong...The customers are in this WITH us..Actually the payment for services over the last ten years has tumbled 75% or more..Here's an example...In 1998 A friend of mine bought a single recever Directv system. It was an out of the box buy frm Circuit City. The system cost about $300.....He arranged for installation with the store. Cost$250. That was the fee for a standard one tuner install.
Let's look at today..while I will not divulge to you or anyone else outside the business what my payment is for a standard install I can tell you it is far less than half of that. So you see in that last ten years or so, the satellite companies in thir interest in keeping prices down to allowed for more affordable prices ot the customers have essentially gone into the pockets of the very people they trust to serve their customers.
So if you think you haven't gotten a break, think again.
Our costs have never gone down. Yet the pay rates have receded substatially
The customers(me included) are paying more. But not nearly what they could be paying.
You are speaking for yourself. Not others. Let's get that straight. CUstiomers are not paying nearly what they could be...Both satcos have negotiated strongly in the customer's favor with producers to keep per subscriber costs down....HD programming could be far more expensive. But subscribers are paying less than 50 cents per channel if each HD channel is counted as one channel and the fee based on the $20 per month wextra Dish charges (pre Feb 1, 2008)
Look, you have other options. If you or anyone else isn't happy with having to fairly compensate a satellite installer just payment for services rendered then I suggest you choose another prgramming provider.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

well that's where you are wrong...The customers are in this WITH us..Actually the payment for services over the last ten years has tumbled 75% or more..Here's an example...In 1998 A friend of mine bought a single recever Directv system. It was an out of the box buy frm Circuit City. The system cost about $300.....He arranged for installation with the store. Cost$250. That was the fee for a standard one tuner install.
Let's look at today..while I will not divulge to you or anyone else outside the business what my payment is for a standard install I can tell you it is far less than half of that. So you see in that last ten years or so, the satellite companies in thir interest in keeping prices down to allowed for more affordable prices ot the customers have essentially gone into the pockets of the very people they trust to serve their customers.
So if you think you haven't gotten a break, think again.
Our costs have never gone down. Yet the pay rates have receded substatially
The customers(me included) are paying more. But not nearly what they could be paying.
You are speaking for yourself. Not others. Let's get that straight. CUstiomers are not paying nearly what they could be...Both satcos have negotiated strongly in the customer's favor with producers to keep per subscriber costs down....HD programming could be far more expensive. But subscribers are paying less than 50 cents per channel if each HD channel is counted as one channel and the fee based on the $20 per month wextra Dish charges (pre Feb 1, 2008)
Look, you have other options. If you or anyone else isn't happy with having to fairly compensate a satellite installer just payment for services rendered then I suggest you choose another prgramming provider.

This entire statement makes no sence. Sorry ! Tell me what do you think we should be paying then? Your the only one here thats defending shotty workmanship. If your not happy ,Get a new Job. And back in 1995 I paid $800 for a reciever and installed it myself! DBS was an entirely New service back then. Thats why it was so expensive. There was no customers yet. Now there almost 30 million. With compitition around how can you expect people to still pay $800 for 1 receiver ,when cable was a fraction of that price. Of course the price went down,You would be out of a job if it didn't, But you also have massive amount of new customers every day. Not 1 a week! COM'ON ! A PS2 was $299 when I bought one back in 1999,now its half price, I can tell already your workmanship,looks nothing like DAVE NYE's pictures. Your to busy crying about what you don't get. Take some pride man,It never hurts to better yourself!

 

[daro]

DISH Network -- Installation


Not technical? Looking for an easy way to ger your new DISH Network TV system up and running? Standard Professional Installation is FREE! (Savings of $199 - Limited time offer.) Let our experts bring satellite television into your home for FREE!

Standard Professional Installation Includes

• Site survey (at time of installation)
• Assembly of dishes and mount(s)
• Grounding of system components
• System peaking for optimum performance
• Installation of up to 120' RG-6 cable
• One wall cable penetration
• Testing of equipment for proper operation
• Orientation to DISH Network programming and equipment

Materials Provided At No Charge:

• Up to 120' RG-6 cable
• Coaxial cable connectors
• Grounding equipment
• Weather sealant for connections
  and structure penetration

 

[dishcomm]

This entire statement makes no sence. Sorry ! Tell me what do you think we should be paying then? Your the only one here thats defending shotty workmanship. If your not happy ,Get a new Job. And back in 1995 I paid $800 for a reciever and installed it myself! DBS was an entirely New service back then. Thats why it was so expensive. There was no customers yet. Now there almost 30 million. With compitition around how can you expect people to still pay $800 for 1 receiver ,when cable was a fraction of that price. Of course the price went down,You would be out of a job if it didn't, But you also have massive amount of new customers every day. Not 1 a week! COM'ON ! A PS2 was $299 when I bought one back in 1999,now its half price, I can tell already your workmanship,looks nothing like DAVE NYE's pictures. Your to busy crying about what you don't get. Take some pride man,It never hurts to better yourself!

PLease indicate where I implied or confirmed that I was in favor of shoddy(not shotty) workmanship..It was you who rendered the opinion that any cable not buried in conduit was poor work. An opinion shared by....no one else.....Direct burial is SOP with cable,phone, electric and satellite.
I expect nothing. The fatc is that while prices have gone down to the consumer the costs for materials to provide the consumer with service have continued ot rise. All this while pay rates have tumbled.
You have no idea what you are talking about. My work is impeccable.
You sit there an criticize me from afar, knowing nothing of my work or work ethic. All because I choose to work within the parameters of what Dish considers to be a standard install.
You are the one who flip flopped all through this issue. First you protested about having to pay at all. Then you wrote you'd be willing to pay for the conduit. Now you are trying ( unsuccesfully ) to start sh*t with me by calling my work substandard.
Here's the deal....Customers will pay for non standard work and that's that.. Protests al you like, Speculate as to the quality of my work until your ass falls off. You'll get nowhere with anyone in this business on this issue.
By the way..Based soley on your posts and in the absence ony evidence proving your accusations of my alleged substandard work ,I believe I am a Galaxy better than you...Discussion terminated. Have a nice life.
Don't make this personal..You have been so advised.

 

[dishcomm]

DISH Network -- Installation


Not technical? Looking for an easy way to ger your new DISH Network TV system up and running? Standard Professional Installation is FREE! (Savings of $199 - Limited time offer.) Let our experts bring satellite television into your home for FREE!

Standard Professional Installation Includes

• Site survey (at time of installation)
• Assembly of dishes and mount(s)
• Grounding of system components
• System peaking for optimum performance
• Installation of up to 120' RG-6 cable
• One wall cable penetration
• Testing of equipment for proper operation
• Orientation to DISH Network programming and equipment

Materials Provided At No Charge:

• Up to 120' RG-6 cable
• Coaxial cable connectors
• Grounding equipment
• Weather sealant for connections
  and structure penetration

well that just about sums it up....Notwithstanding the opinion of the OP....Who seems to think what ever he demands to be free ,should be.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

Your the one talking about free! We are talking about doing your job! Grounding systems! You can take it all personal. You just think your worth way more then you get paid . Like we should be lucky we get what we get. Just remember when ,you or another Tech,put splicing underground,in the dirt and it fails. The customer pays for this when it fails ,NOT YOU!

 

[dishcomm]

Your the one talking about free! We are talking about doing your job! Grounding systems! You can take it all personal. You just think your worth way more then you get paid . Like we should be lucky we get what we get. Just remember when ,you or another Tech,put splicing underground,in the dirt and it fails. The customer pays for this when it fails ,NOT YOU!

Who is talking about not grounding?..Your inability to stay on point (conduit for burial) indicates your argument has grown so weak that you are now trying to save yourself by deflecting the discussion from the issue at hand. We're done ..Get it? Good.
Condiut is non standard. Customer pays. That's that..

 

[Hemi 6.1]

Who is talking about not grounding?..Your inability to stay on point (conduit for burial) indicates your argument has grown so weak that you are now trying to save yourself by deflecting the discussion from the issue at hand. We're done ..Get it? Good.
Condiut is non standard. Customer pays. That's that..

Good Done then! Atleast from me ,But wait untill others get started. I'm sure they aren't all done yet! Keep up the good work!