HD-Lite Class Action

[Jeff_R]

It's just much easier to go after D* - a more clear case, as all their channels are HD-Lite.
Should this succeed, trust me, E* will be next, in no time!

At the time this particular lawsuit was filed, 2004, I believe that all of E*'s HD was actual HDTV. I don't think they had Voom at that time, just HDNets, Discovery HD, TNT and possibly Universal HD. All were provided at full bandwidth. It wasn't until the Voom stuff showed up that they began to downrez (and even that wasn't until they expanded the Voom package offered to a larger number of channels).

 

[foghorn2]

...not flaming, just waiting for you to qualify your statements regarding DishHD by providing the stated resolution of DishHD in quantifiable terms? (i.e. horizontal and vertical lines of resolution). Also, please cite your sources.

While DishHD is indeed a trademark, the rest of your statement is simply not true. If you look at the DishHD website, you'll see the standards based HD and HDTV logos displayed all over the page. There is no mentioned of DishHD providing customers with an interior HD viewing experience. IMO, the class action suite filed against D* should be expanded to include E* as a co-defendant. Again, just my opinion...

Right, these logos are everywhere like those on my Vizio that has only 1024X768 rez. Some would say that it is not true HD but the label remains. Look, I agree with you guys that HD-Lite should go away, but this lawsuit like I've said many times before, will go nowhere because it's not objective.

When finally they agree, like with the TV sets, that 720 lines minimum is the reference point, the suit will be dead. We can get into bitrates too, and that will go nowhere also. If they open up to vertical res, then the courts will open up a can of worms and everyone will get sued. If anything, a settlement will be reached and HD-Lite will continue.

 

[Voyager6]

Well, there are thousands of these 1024x768 sets that are labeled as "HD" simply because it did a minimum of 720 lines. And many agree that these sets are HD sets as they were bought and sold as HD sets by manufactures and retail outlets.

My new LCD has 1366x768 so I'm glad it fits your definition of HD

According to the FCC, HD is 720 lines or 1080 lines (either P or I) with a 16:9 aspect ratio. Thus for 720 you need the resolution to be 1280 X 720 to meet the 16:9 ratio. For 1080 you need 1920 X 1080 to meet the 16:9 ratio.
http://www.dtv.gov/DTV_booklet.pdf

 

[riffjim4069]

Congratulations, you've already ruled the case, now go after the locals and the cable companies advertising HD but giving you HD-Lite.

I am not in a position to rule on this matter, but I am in a position to state that some of E*'s DishHD channels have lost that certain "pop" they used to have. I suppose I could rule with my wallet by terminating my DishHD subscription but, even with their degraded HD picture quality, they are still the best HD value out there, and their HD DVRs are excellent. As far as going after my local broadcasters and cable company...there is no need since both parties provide their HD channels in the proper ATSC format: 1920x1080i or 1280x720p.

I prefer to watch OTA locals vice the E* provided HD LIL counterparts, and Adelphia cable offers too few HD channels and too many equipment and customer service problems to rate further consideration. Again, local broadcasters and cable provide HD...just trying get E*, and D* for that matter, to do the same.

 

[Ilya]

Well, there are thousands of these 1024x768 sets that are labeled as "HD" simply because it did a minimum of 720 lines. And many agree that these sets are HD sets as they were bought and sold as HD sets by manufactures and retail outlets.

Yes, unfortunately, there are a lot of companies out there that are trying to sell us mislabeled and sub-par products. The case with HD-Lite is different though (see below).

My new LCD has 1366x768 so I'm glad it fits your definition of HD

I am glad for you too!

Here is what makes the HD-Lite case so outrageous:

While most TV manufacturers are trying to improve the picture quality and resolution of their TV sets year after year, DirecTV and Dish Network seem to be moving backwards: they started with full 1920x1080i resolution on most HD channels and then gradually downgraded the resolution by 1/4 or by 1/3. At the time when more and more TV sets are finally ready to display Full HD (the ultimate 1920x1080 Progressive), DirecTV and Dish Network are taking a pristine HD source and intentionally downgrading the picture quality of it in an attempt to squeeze more and more channels into the pipe.

I don't know if a Class Action can succeed and I don't care about any penalties that DirecTV and Dish Network will have to pay to their customers. What is important though is that a strong message will be sent to all service providers out there, that there are a lot of customers who care about picture quality more than channel quantity, and that not everyone is willing to tolerate some garbage labeled as "astonishing picture clarity". I hate lawsuits, but perhaps this is the best way of sending a message, so that the company would listen...

 

[riffjim4069]

I don't know if a Class Action can succeed and I don't care about any penalties that D* or E* will have to pay to their customers. What is important, though is that a strong message will be sent to all service providers out there, that there are a lot of customers who care about picture quality more than channel quantity, and that not everyone is willing to tolerate some garbage labeled as "astonishing picture clarity". I hate lawsuits, but perhaps this is the best way to send a message, so that the company would listen...

Absolutely! I don't want any monetary or punitive damages...just want the return of HD. I feel the vast majority of HD-Lovin' folks understand that transponder space is at a premium these days. But we do feel the satcasters should commit to a minimum acceptable resultion (it's not 1280x1080i) as well as a timeframe for returning all HD channels back to 1920x1080i or 1280x720p.

 

[dslate69]

Everyone is my buudy weather if I agree with them or not.

But does anyone know why they did not go after E* first or at the same time? There would be a whole lot more class members.

Actually it would be nice to see some of you HD-Lite dissenters use your collective energies that is well documented here and go after Dish Network too. Then there will 2 concurrent lawsuits about HD-Lite which will further your cause.

Hey Buddy !
You have to prove damages if you want to win a law suite. My guess is the initiator had to be a DirecTv sub, thus did not incur damages from DISH. Not to say one of our fine DISH subs with OCD couldn't make the same claim against DISH.

 

[Ilya]

Sorry guys, but I had to delete the last couple of posts. Please stay on topic!

 

[foghorn2]

Hey Buddy !
You have to prove damages if you want to win a law suite. My guess is the initiator had to be a DirecTv sub, thus did not incur damages from DISH. Not to say one of our fine DISH subs with OCD couldn't make the same claim against DISH.

I was gone for a while and what happened? OK I made the "like OCD" (OCD is a serious problem which I believe all humans have manifested in one way or another, including me) comment and I'm sorry if I offended anyone, and I'm glad the cesspool sigs are gone. Truce.

End of Story.

Moving on..... IF Dish and DirectTv we both to give you full rates and rezzes right now, will they have enough bandwith? Will they have to remove some channels? Would they lose business to Cable because of this?

 

[foghorn2]

According to the FCC, HD is 720 lines or 1080 lines (either P or I) with a 16:9 aspect ratio. Thus for 720 you need the resolution to be 1280 X 720 to meet the 16:9 ratio. For 1080 you need 1920 X 1080 to meet the 16:9 ratio.
http://www.dtv.gov/DTV_booklet.pdf

HD does not have to be 16:9, thus does not have to be 1280 or 1920. The very link you quoted says that HD, SD or ED can be either 4x3 or 16x9.

The vert rez argument will get us no where.

 

[SRW1000]

I'm surprised we're still debating who is defining HD as 1980x1080i or 720x1280p. How about if the info comes from Dish Network itself? Would that be considered proof enough?

I posted this link from Dish's Technical data back in January, I'm surprised it hasn't been changed yet:

DTV signals have horizontal resolution that ranges from 640 lines for SDTV, to 1280 lines (for 720p HDTV) or 1920 lines (for 1080i HDTV)

I've attached a screen print of how the page looks today, in case it's changed in the future.

I also seem to remember seeing a flash ad/feature that defined the true resolution of HD.

Scott

 

[SRW1000]

Here's another example of Dish referencing the ATSC HDTV specs:

What is High Definition Television (HDTV)?

Again, I've attached an image of the site for posterity.

Looks like a good case for any lawyers out there.

Scott

 

[riffjim4069]

I'm surprised we're still debating who is defining HD as 1980x1080i or 720x1280p. How about if the info comes from Dish Network itself? Would that be considered proof enough?

Scott, you are the man! I was looking for this the other day, but I couldn't find it...not even on the Internet Archive.:

 

[vurbano]

Pradike strikes back!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.tvpredictions.com/radike092206.htm

Commentary
DIRECTV's HDTV Is A-Ok
By Peter Radike
HD Observer

Editor's Note: TVPredictions.com this week has received approximately 100 e-mails from people complaining that DIRECTV does not have enough national HD channels -- and that their existing HD channels suffer from poor picture quality. However, Peter Radike disagrees below.

Washington, D.C. (September 22, 2006) -- Yes, DIRECTV has less HD channels than EchoStar, but a number of the E* channels are “specialty channels” that do not cater to mainstream viewers.

Second, while the number of national HD channels could and probably should be increased on D*, the reality is that the actual amount of HD programming available is far more than the “9 channels” that readers are led to believe in this article. I personally watch 70% of my HD content on ABC, CBS, Fox, and NBC – not just ESPN, Discovery, HDNet, etc. It’s not just about the number of channels; it’s about the content available.

Third, there are only about 4-5 other national HD channels that contain “mainstream” content – and these will most likely appear on D* some time in the next 9-12 months. Would it be nice to get them now? Yes. Will we all somehow survive to wait a bit longer to get them – yes.

4. The 'HD Lite' issue (alleged poor picture quality) is not unique to D*, but also has been experienced from EchoStar and cable providers as well. I suspect this issue will go away within the next year as bandwidth becomes expanded at various providers. The frivolous lawsuit (See Related Links) filed will most likely be shelved by the courts, as no mandated statue exists for what constitutes HD.

As a reader of over 15 daily message boards on this topic, I see that there are some 50-75 vocal advocates who complain at every turn that their HD offering doesn’t meet their personal needs or isn’t up to their standards. These folks frequently all show their “it’s all about me” attitudes towards expectations.

The fact that there are over 15 million subscribers (and growing of D* service, as well as just under 1 million HD customers, shows mainstream American does not share the fear.

I do not work for, nor have anyone in my family working for DIRECTV. I just feel that a few vocal whiners are distorting the picture – I’ll call it 'Complaint Lite.'

Peter Radike is a HD Observer for TVPredictions.com.
If you [SIZE=-1]would like to be a HD Observer for TVPredictions.com, send an e-mail to: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]swann@TVPredictions.com[/SIZE]

 

[foghorn2]

"4. The 'HD Lite' issue (alleged poor picture quality) is not unique to D*, but also has been experienced from EchoStar and cable providers as well. I suspect this issue will go away within the next year as bandwidth becomes expanded at various providers. The frivolous lawsuit (See Related Links) filed will most likely be shelved by the courts, as no mandated statue exists for what constitutes HD."

There you go. I'm not the only one saying this. Have patience my friends and don't help your socialist cable company monopolies.

 

[foghorn2]

I'm surprised we're still debating who is defining HD as 1980x1080i or 720x1280p. How about if the info comes from Dish Network itself? Would that be considered proof enough?

I posted this link from Dish's Technical data back in January, I'm surprised it hasn't been changed yet:

DTV signals have horizontal resolution that ranges from 640 lines for SDTV, to 1280 lines (for 720p HDTV) or 1920 lines (for 1080i HDTV)

I've attached a screen print of how the page looks today, in case it's changed in the future.

I also seem to remember seeing a flash ad/feature that defined the true resolution of HD.

Scott

It also says, "horizontal resolution varies according to the source". I'm sure another lawyer will mention this and the screen shot will negate itself.

 

[Smith P.]

Well, what his ONE vocal opinion means against 50-70 here and there with real factual base - picture, bandwidth, data ?!

NOTHING !

 

[foghorn2]

Well, what his ONE vocal opinion means against 50-70 here and there with real factual base - picture, bandwidth, data ?!

NOTHING !

Buddy, these quotes sums it all:

"As a reader of over 15 daily message boards on this topic, I see that there are some 50-75 vocal advocates who complain at every turn that their HD offering doesn’t meet their personal needs or isn’t up to their standards. These folks frequently all show their “it’s all about me” attitudes towards expectations."

"The fact that there are over 15 million subscribers (and growing of D* service, as well as just under 1 million HD customers, shows mainstream American does not share the fear."

The world does not revolve around these message boards. I'd say we are more knowlegable and into detail and quality than the ave subscriber, but we are not the majority. When enough people leave because of HD-Lite, then they will listen. The lawsuit may as well wither away and give them little incentive to give us true HD any quicker.

 

[vurbano]

It was by the biggest D* fanboy on the planet. I havent seen him around snce the HDlite term was defined in a thread at AVS a year or so ago. I do recall several aliases though.

 

[SRW1000]

Scott, you are the man! I was looking for this the other day, but I couldn't find it...not even on the Internet Archive.:

There have been lots of really good postings over the years, detailing just how consumers are confused by conflicting information. I'm sure that there are more of them out there, especially when one considers what has survived in printed form.

Scott