First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter

[pabeader]

i'm at work, but as soon as I get home i'll be happy to check both things. Honestly, I never really look at the time. I just set the timers to do their thing and when the last show is over, I go to bed.

I'm in the Huntsville/Decatur DMA so that might help figure it out. and i am using a single ear rabbit ear antenna. inside a house trailer.

 

[Corgan]

TGIF
I have not personally seen the DTVPal vs a Zenith DTT901* (it's better then the DTT900)

Rammitinski says it's slightly softer on his TV's on good HD material than with his CM or the LG boxes
His general thought is that you will only notice major differences on anything bigger than a 32" TV unless you use S-Video like the Channel Master and Apex has and the DTVPal doesn't.

To me, the DTVPal is MUCH softer than my DTT900. Maybe I'll use an old tuner card to take some head-to-head screenshots.

 

[Malouff]

To me, the DTVPal is MUCH softer than my DTT900. Maybe I'll use an old tuner card to take some head-to-head screenshots.

I was told the softness is determined if the source is in HD or not and the signal strength.

If you can please include some images comparing the two.
Like I said I don't have any first hand experience but wonder how bad it really is.

If you can show the same still frame for comparison but that would be great.

 

[Smith P.]

I could make side by side comparision using my monitor with PIP, but one box should have composite output, other - S-VHS. And I need the pal for that, Venturer is ready.

 

[Corgan]

I was told the softness is determined if the source is in HD or not and the signal strength.

If you can please include some images comparing the two.
Like I said I don't have any first hand experience but wonder how bad it really is.

If you can show the same still frame for comparison but that would be great.

This is true in that HD broadcasts are softened. SD is relatively untampered.

With my limitations in equipment, exact frames may be hard. I may opt for similar images: ie, the same two news anchors in the same shot a minute apart.

 

[Weezknight]

I was told the softness is determined if the source is in HD or not and the signal strength.

Wasn't there a debate about this before? Signal strength shouldn't make a difference, since the picture will be there, or it won't?

 

[pabeader]

not so much strength but quality
ive seen the picture get fuzzy and sharp depending on how close you are to losing the signal lock

 

[TheKrell]

ive seen the picture get fuzzy and sharp depending on how close you are to losing the signal lock

Huh. If true, that is evidence of fairly sophisticated error compensation. Not exactly what I would expect in a CECB.

 

[pabeader]

actually it's expected behavior. built into the standard decoding chip schema

think of it this way. you've seen macroblocking. image the blocks get smaller and smaller as there is more and more data available to process. if it's just one blip less the max then the picture will look a little fuzzy compared to having that one more blip.

 

[TheKrell]

You sure about that pabeader? This (sophisticated error compensation) does not happen on my Dish network SD receivers. Or maybe I don't know what macroblocking is... When I'm losing the satellite signal, e.g. when a thunderstorm comes through the area, I see large rectangular boxes that are in no way the average of the surrounding blocks. The effect is not to make the overall picture get fuzzy. The effect is to freeze blocks at whatever they were showing last, or substitute garrish colors such as flourescent lime green. The sound mostly goes silent in between bursts of loud noise. No graceful degradation there!

 

[Smith P.]

He is dreaming, perhaps know something about tech talk of chip makers.

 

[TAP112]

Sarcasm intended in the thanks I gave to the previous posters

 

[pabeader]

in the end it's hard to say. I can only report what I see with my eyes, and try to make sense of it, eh?

 

[p41]

You sure about that pabeader? This (sophisticated error compensation) does not happen on my Dish network SD receivers. Or maybe I don't know what macroblocking is... When I'm losing the satellite signal, e.g. when a thunderstorm comes through the area, I see large rectangular boxes that are in no way the average of the surrounding blocks. The effect is not to make the overall picture get fuzzy. The effect is to freeze blocks at whatever they were showing last, or substitute garrish colors such as flourescent lime green. The sound mostly goes silent in between bursts of loud noise. No graceful degradation there!

Pabeader is correct, there is very sophisticated error correction built into the over-the-air DTV protocol. (google 'ATSC forward error correction'. Each 188 byte mpeg frame for DTV gets 20 bytes of parity bytes - compare to ethernet's 1500-9500 data bytes and only 4 bytes error code, and that's not even counting how much more efficiently DTV uses them) But any over-the-air transmission is always going to be very noisy. On a digital signal there's going to be a narrow range between signal looks fantastic and signal looks really crappy. Unfortunately the protocol designers have to pick a point of how much redundancy the signal should include and everything beyond that is 'get a better antenna'. Your exact macroblock effect is going to depend on what data gets through, which is determined by the interference.

 

[TGIF]

To me, the DTVPal is MUCH softer than my DTT900. Maybe I'll use an old tuner card to take some head-to-head screenshots.

That would be greatly appreciated!

 

[etrumpff]

So, we do need this box in addition to the dvr? And will we need one on all 4 tv sets?

 

[partsman_ba]

So, we do need this box in addition to the dvr? And will we need one on all 4 tv sets?

You need a box wherever you have an NSTC-only tuner. If you want to keep your timer-enabled channel changing on a recording device, this is the only box which currently will do it (sometimes) (if you hold your tongue right) (if you live in the right broadcast area). So, if you have 4 televisions that don't have digital tuners, and a DVR that doesn't, you need 5 boxes. Whether you want five DTVPals is a different question.

 

[JayStil]

Well I was waiting and debating over the DTVPal, but I didn't want to pay shipping on it. I went down to my local Sears and the guy knew about it, but said that they were probably not going to be 1st in line to get any, so it could be months before they get any, if they EVER get any.

With my coupons expiring soon I ended up at Radio Shack and picked up one of the Digital Stream converters. For what I need it for, it is 100% what I needed. It pulls in 2 channels that my ViP211 can't get, so I guess that's a plus.

All in all I would've liked to have picked up a DTVPal, but, unfortunately, the distribution stream is too limited. I'm happy with the Digital Stream as it seems to be pretty solid.

I picked up 2 at my local Sears this morning. It was quite a process. I brought the boxes to the electronics register and asked the guy how much they were as there was no shelf tag or item price tag. He said "$49.99" before scanning it, but once it scanned it came up $59.99. He said "Oh, I guess the other one is $49.99".

So I give him my 2 coupons and he tries to run them through the MSR. It beeps at him a couple of times and he looks confused. Another guy comes over and helps him. Says he has to ring them up separately, and brings over the Magnavox converter to scan. "Those DTVPALS aren't in the system so I've been ringing them up as these." I'm happy 'cause it rings up $49.99. Then the 2 of them argue, with the original guy saying it showed the pricecheck so it must be scannable.

So he finally scans in the PAL and says the total for 1 is $19.99 after coupon. I break out my debit card, run it through, and get error beeps. He reads the screen and says I gotta pay with cash or gift card. Their system treats the federal coupon as a debit card, and will only allow one card transaction per order.

We go to a different register and I buy a $39.98 gift card with my debit card. Then it's back to the other register to finish the 1st transaction with the gift card, ring up the 2nd PAL and coupon, and pay for the balance with the rest of the gift card.

As I was leaving the guy that rang me up was yelling at the other guy for messing up the inventory by selling the PALs as Magnavox's.

Quite an ordeal just so I can continue to watch TV in my camper.

 

[pabeader]

at least the different Sears stores are consistent in their lunacy

 

[kb7oeb]

As I was leaving the guy that rang me up was yelling at the other guy for messing up the inventory by selling the PALs as Magnavox's.

Lol, reminded me of when I used to work at Albertson's and the GM got mad at the cashiers for selling the bagger kids a can of pepsi as 1/6 of a six pack.