First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter

[pabeader]

as for leaving it on all the time. I'll happily send you the .75 that it will cost.

I have mine set to 4 hour standy mode. Doesn't seem to make a difference to my Pal.

 

[Corgan]

I've concluded that I am not a fan of the DTVPal. It's picture quality is too difficult to ignore. I will be going back to the Zenith DTT900/901. The good news means that if it's still needed, I can open her up

 

[pabeader]

feel free to send it to me. i like superior products

 

[Anole]

. . . Or me: I like inferior products which had great potential, but never achieved lift-off. -

- would kill for the guide
- gotta have the better remote
- could live without timers and related features.
- still would like to see first hand the video quality, and compare to the Channel Master I just got.

 

[Smith P.]

I've concluded that I am not a fan of the DTVPal. It's picture quality is too difficult to ignore. I will be going back to the Zenith DTT900/901. The good news means that if it's still needed, I can open her up

Yes, please. And install RS232 connector and try to see debug console messages.

 

[Malouff]

Anole,

Did you know that all converter boxes have a problem with their guide listings?

Your Channel Master has the same time problem as the DTVPal.
And here you were holding off because of this time problem among other things

It's just that it has become more in the spotlight because of the timer feature where people were relaying on it being more accurate.

Think of it in the following way.

Technically the guide time listings are accurate. They don't change, they are resting in the box ready for use. What changes is the time that the box is told it is at the moment by currently tuned station PSIP time. Right or wrong, the box has to use that time as gospel.

Just like if you were looking at the guide in a newspaper. The print never changes. If someone tells you that it is 12 noon and asks you what is on a particular channel, but they lied to you, really it is 1 PM. You will tell them the wrong information as far as what event is currently on.

Secondly, if they then ask you if you could please tune to a particular event that is on at 12 noon and it is really 1 PM, you can't.

This is why the timers fail as they can't find the particular event because the box has the wrong time when looking at it's listings grid

I also learned that my two internal times idea would not work.

What all boxes need is a manual time or a designated station for keeping the time like the Analog PBS does.

 

[Anole]

Sure, it stands to reason that if I Love Lucy comes on at 9pm and your station clock says 8:55 even though it's really 9:01, your guide will be wrong.
However, ya might realize you were not actually watching Leave It To Beaver, as the guide said.

I think the PAL is the only CECB which stores the entire matrix of guide info for all channels.
My Channel Master appears to load info for the current station when you tune to it.
(I'll have to look at that more carefully and characterize it properly)
This means you can see what's currently on, as you look at the transparent guide info for what will be on later (12 hours later)

With the PAL (assuming it's like the Dish satellite guide), you can stay on one station, and scroll through the guide in both time and through all stations.
In my market, there are around 25 stations transmitting 50~55 subchannels, so that's a big matrix!
If you were to rely on the Pal guide, it's more likely you would miss a show that was from a TV station with a bad clock.
Given a simpler guide like my Channel Master, you'd get more obvious feedback that something was wrong.
With a simplistic box with Now/Next, you'd always be alerted that the Guide/Time was wrong.

So, whether you wish to take to task my analysis above or not, the punch line is:
- that the more complicated guide (superior?) of the PAL
- in a market with lots of channels
- having stations with varying times
- you are more likely to be led astray
- and miss a show that's listed in your guide.

Because, with less of a guide to rely on, you won't be lulled into a false sense of security.
So, the PAL is a victim of it's own success! -

 

[Malouff]

<snip>
My Channel Master appears to load info for the current station when you tune to it.
<snip>
So, the PAL is a victim of it's own success!

I have heard that the Zenith with it's simple now/next guide will let you scroll to see what is on other channels but will use the current channel's time for accessing the listings.

The DTVPal is the same.
I have been told that if you are viewing a channel that is transmitting the correct time then all of the guide listings will be correct.

However, if you are viewing a channel that is transmitting a incorrect time say a hour behind then when you look at the guide from that channel then all of the guide listings will be a hour behind.

The Guide is successful only if you are accessing it from a station transmitting the correct time.

Event the Channel Master's guide will still have problems if the individual station's are transmitting the wrong time.
Looking at a image of the Channel Master's guide I see arrows at the top in blue.
I think that you can also access other channels using these arrows much like the Zenith.

 

[Weezknight]

Well I was waiting and debating over the DTVPal, but I didn't want to pay shipping on it. I went down to my local Sears and the guy knew about it, but said that they were probably not going to be 1st in line to get any, so it could be months before they get any, if they EVER get any.

With my coupons expiring soon I ended up at Radio Shack and picked up one of the Digital Stream converters. For what I need it for, it is 100% what I needed. It pulls in 2 channels that my ViP211 can't get, so I guess that's a plus.

All in all I would've liked to have picked up a DTVPal, but, unfortunately, the distribution stream is too limited. I'm happy with the Digital Stream as it seems to be pretty solid.

 

[navychop]

DTVPal & 508

Well, you certainly don't want to have a 508 with the DTVPal. The DTVPal's remote will cycle the 508 power. And once, it set a recording somehow. But the 508 remote will just make the DTVPal power LED blink. I'll try changing the remote assignment on the 508 and see if the problem continues.

I wish the DTVPal had a way of turning the TV set's power on and off. To keep things simple for my MiL, she'll only see the DTVPal remote, and will have to press the power button on and off on the TV. I searched for a "simple to use" learning remote, but they all have either way too many buttons or not enough. Power, channels, volume, cancel, guide and arrow keys to go thru the guide, that's all that's needed. She'll never set a timer. Glad the volume control feature works well.

 

[Jane B.]

Well, you certainly don't want to have a 508 with the DTVPal. The DTVPal's remote will cycle the 508 power. And once, it set a recording somehow. But the 508 remote will just make the DTVPal power LED blink. I'll try changing the remote assignment on the 508 and see if the problem continues.

I wish the DTVPal had a way of turning the TV set's power on and off. To keep things simple for my MiL, she'll only see the DTVPal remote, and will have to press the power button on and off on the TV. I searched for a "simple to use" learning remote, but they all have either way too many buttons or not enough. Power, channels, volume, cancel, guide and arrow keys to go thru the guide, that's all that's needed. She'll never set a timer. Glad the volume control feature works well.

I don't know if this will be of any help any more; but the 5-in-1 Smart Remote (15-2103) that I bought at Radio Shack 2-3 years ago will work the Pal in place of the one that comes with it by selecting Echostar code 0775 for the satellite button. It will also control tvs, etc. It does have a learning feature but my TV and VCR happened to be models that have codes built it. I also really like the fact that it has buttons that light up when pressed for use in the bedroom.

Jane

 

[navychop]

Thank you. That might come in handy.

 

[Anole]

comparison shopping

Over in the HD TV Forum, we have a thread going on Which Converter Box to Buy.
I just posted why I recommended a DTVpal to a buddy, even though I wouldn't have one myself.

 

[Malouff]

I'd like to see the picture quality tweaked (or see it for myself), and get the remote situation sorted out.
I could live without the timer, but won't touch a Pal as long as it ships with that remote.
Everybody has their priorities.

Small world about the remote.

Dave Zatz was telling me he was considering other boxes then the DTVPal for his Mom like the Zenith because the Dish Network remote does not turn the TV on and off.

 

[zman]

Was ready to buy one of these until I read the manual and understood what they meant by analog passthrough. I have an OTA antenna and I route the RF (second tuner) output of two of my dishrecievers into this same signal. Basically today from my secondary TVs I can either go to say channel 35 and watch my dish reciever or just change channels and pick up the local stations directly. The way I understand it, wiht his box, I have to turn off the box and then use the separat tv remote to see my dish modulated signals.

Is that correct? Are there any converters that work like a newer tv....tune both Digital and Analog at the same time and you just channel up and down between them all?

 

[Malouff]

Are there any converters that work like a newer tv....tune both Digital and Analog at the same time and you just channel up and down between them all?

None of the CECB's have both a Digital and Analog tuner so they can't view both.

The Philco/Magnavox can be used to view both if you switch remotes.
It has a option for it's RF connector when it is on.
So if you use the A/V connection you can view digital when you are on the AUX channel and the Analog like normal.

 

[rperlberg]

None of the CECB's have both a Digital and Analog tuner so they can't view both.

This is a real peeve of mine regarding the NTIA's CECB requirements. I can understand them wanting to limit the functionality of a CECB so that the coupon could not be used for something other than a converter box, but how would adding analog tuning capability create a problem? The NTIA is obviously well aware of the need for analog compatibility since Analog Pass-through is the one feature they highlight in their product list, so you'd think they would accept that allowing the box to tune analog channels along with digital channels would be a superior solution to making people clumsily switch between tuners. Don't these people have Grandmas?

 

[Malouff]

The NTIA is obviously well aware of the need for analog compatibility since Analog Pass-through is the one feature they highlight in their product list

The NTIA did not want the Analog PassThru feature. The were content with the Digital only converters.

It took the Community Broadcasters Association (CBA) to file a lawsuit to get boxes with the Analog PassThru feature as the Digital only boxes are in violation of the All-Channel Receiver Act that was passed by Congress in 1961

The CBA actually wanted the boxes to have both tuners for analog and digital but the NTIA was against that idea.

I am sure some manufactures were also against the idea.

After all besides offering true HD or a recording capability the idea of having both tuners in one box is another reason why consumers will by the more expensive equipment.

If these CECB's had that capability of both tuners then a lot of people would not by the other equipment.

 

[Malouff]

as for leaving it on all the time. I'll happily send you the .75 that it will cost.

I have mine set to 4 hour standby mode. Doesn't seem to make a difference to my Pal.

I think that the problem for a lot of people is that they turn there boxes off.

This is putting there boxes into Analog PassThru mode not Maintenance mode and this is why they get the downloading guide screen.

A flaw Dish Network made
I am realizing that Dish Network made a flaw by not giving a option on what the power button would do.

They should have given the option of Analog PassThru mode or Maintenance mode.

After all in a few years the Analog PassThru mode will be useless and Maintenance mode would be a better option to have then.

PLEASE SUGGEST THIS IDEA TO DISH NETWORK

About the Time Problem
Forget my two clock idea - it will not work.

For that problem it needs like Anole said a option to set a trusted source of time much like the way the TVGuide system works. The time will come from one trusted source.

That or it needs a manual time option

It would also have been nice to have a remote that could have turned the TV on and off and also change the TV's channels and volume in Analog PassThru mode.

I have understood how the time problem is for all devices that use PSIP not just the DTVPal so as you said a lot of what the DTVPal offers is superior

A problem that will never go away
It still will never offer on box controls or a cigarette lighter adapter with that stupid proprietary plug

I guess that doesn't matter that much as we all can get two coupons to get two different converters like I am the DTVPal and MicroProse.

 

[zman]

So if none of the CECB's have both a Digital and Analog tuner and i assume that TVs moving forward will only have digital tuners.....what is Dish going to do about their second tuner outpout on their dual tuner recievers? Are they planning on making the modulated output ATSC in the near future?