EchoStar Files Suit Over FTA Boxes

[Mr Tony]

Powervu is used by more than the military
Cable companies use it too

Reason things are Powervu (or even powervu+) is because there is only a few commercial receivers (all made by Scientific Atlanta) to encode it. So you need that box

I know most of the regional sports networks use it on C-Band and lots of cable type channels use PV+

 

[greggor48]

FTA is a hobby and I believe it is bigger than Dish and BEV. People have right to purchase whatever FTA receiver they wish. If you can purchase FTA receivers what happen to the Free-to-Air market, should they go out of business to or should they manufacture their own receiver to get people to get FTA (in the clear) channels on Galaxy 25, AMC4, G10R ect.

FTA is bigger than Dish and FTA would stand. Does Dish want everyone to be a Dish customer? If Viewsat receivers have illegal software on them rather that the original firmware they should pay. I love the FTA hobby and Dish is guarding their front door while the backdoor is left unsecure and they are blaming others for that.

DTV use to have that problem and they fixed it why cant Dish and BEV do the same. So what they lose by leaving the back door wide open they are seeking to recover the losses using another method and at the same time hoping to bring down LEGAL FTA users.

Maybe they need to employ some of these same hackers to figure out the loop-holes in their thechology. If they can crack it maybe they have more technical ability than Dish and BEV expert.

 

[SatinKzo]

Well, I think any change in encryption is going to be very costly to dish so in the mean time they are going with alternatives while not affecting existing hardware.

As for viewtech, I say good, I hope you get hit hard if the allegations turn out to be true.
If this case comes out in dish's favor (probably based on what I have read about the case so far) is it going to lead to bunch of companies named in round 2 in a shotgun style approach to see what sticks?
I don't like piracy at all, but I also don't like a big business throwing it's money around and skewing the truth so it can get what it wants.

That being said, like iceberg, I have received little inserts in fta receiver shipments telling me where to get "updated" software for more channels. Becomes scribble paper for the kiddo's, but it's been at least 3 different times and 3 different brands

 

[bill190]

Actually the reason I got into FTA to begin with was I had paid satellite TV and they sold me a piece of junk receiver. It was underpowered microprocessor wise. Took forever to scroll through the TV guide, etc.

I felt like I was ripped off! There was no way this receiver could work properly. Customer service said there was nothing they could do.

So I was looking on the internet for a better receiver - looking for consumer feedback on different models [before I bought]- searching for satellite TV...

And there it was! FTA stuff!

And being as I usually only watch TV while I am eating (I prefer to read books for entertainment), and am a news junkie, I was delighted to learn I could get FTA TV for free.

In my case I'm happy to get something - anything on the tube. I live in a rural area surrounded by hills where we can't get any TV stations via regular antenna.

So I learned all about FTA, got a receiver/dish and canceled my paid satellite service.

Recently I got new FTA stuff to get C and Ku. Now I have hundreds of channels - all FTA.

I'm happy.

 

[Keith Brannen]

What is so annoying, and disturbing, about the lawsuit is the way they appear to brand all FTA boxes and anyone who owns one as thieves or potential thieves. The statement that particularily gets my back up is when they say: "'Free-to-air' channels do not offer the same type of popular programming found in subscription television packages (e.g. HBO, ESPN, etc.). Instead, 'free-to-air' television channels typically include limited ethnic, religious, business, music, information, and advertising content." There certainly is a lot more than that as we all know, and you can see their general drift of the statement is "only a very small number of people would want to watch any of these channels, since if they were popular, we'd carry them and charge for them!"

What made me laugh is all their talk about FTA boxes being the problem, yet the main pirate box, and the cause of the whole problem, is their own box! It should be the first one to be "banned"!

I'm surprised that the lawsuit doesn't blame circular LNBs as part of the problem! (Hope they don't get any ideas by saying that!)

If Echostar really wants to clean up the pirates, they (and BEV) should finally acknowledge they have to bite the bullet and replace their encryption system, which doesn't work, and get one that does, such as those used by Direct TV, Star Choice, and others. Instead of launching expensive lawsuits that wants the world, they should be actively pursuing criminal charges against these people (were any criminal charges filed, or was it just a lawsuit?) and change their encryption! If my back door lock didn't work to keep thieves out, I'd change the lock, not blame everyone who carried around keys!

 

[mastermesh]

What's sort of funny about all of it is satellite tv transmissions were originally, I think, all intended to be fta, but then companies got darn greedy and started scrambling. The majority of the problem is that they are trying to make something that was meant to not be scrambled scrambled, and since it's not on a line like cable or phone, they can't track it to easily to those that are descrambling... I'm not saying piracy is good, or even condoning it... just that ethically, it's sort of like a car manufacturer building a car and then expecting no one to use it to drive since it is meant to sit pretty in a car show...ok, I'll admit that's a bad metaphor... but anyways, you know what I mean... they are trying to make something that was meant to be free not free... kinda like those don't walk on grass signs make more people walk on the grass...

Would be funny if they get hit with a countersuit saying that descrambling is in fact a free speech thing like a lot of people did a few years back when people started getting hit with lawsuits because they figured out ways to copy dvds, breaking decss or whatever that encryption method was called. I mean technically, they are sending out signals, just like radio stations do. Legally, no one is suppossed to record stuff off of radio airwaves since it breaks copyright, but tons of people do.

Ethically, I see both points of view... but technically, they should just do a better job of encrypting or forget about it all and buy up a few cable companies...

 

[stone phillips420]

Maybe they need to employ some of these same hackers to figure out the loop-holes in their thechology. If they can crack it maybe they have more technical ability than Dish and BEV expert.

I think they do, they work in signal integrity group, seems to be the same as the audit nazi to me though

 

[greggor48]

Companies like Dish ans BEV is in business to make billions of dollars from you and me. Maybe if their product was cheaper than it is today and more affordable there would be no need to steal. But the subscribers of these companies is paying for the loses due to signal theft because of loop hole in their Nagravision system. Have the ever sue companies or people outside the USA?

BEV and Dish service is not available outside the US but I know there are places in the Caribbean even hotels who are buying very large dishes to get these signal. But I enjoy FTA and will always do. Attacking FTA users is unreasonable. I believe most FTA receiver is sold without illegal software, but there are software out there readily available and what will stop people from installing them on their FTA receiver.

We all have to watch and see the outcome of all this and see how the FTA market will hold up after all this is done. But I know this will not be the end.

 

[Pepper]

Perceived losses.

There's no guarantee that if if were hack proof, the thieves would subscribe. They'd probably just find something else to spend their time stealing.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I dont buy the "if no one hacked then the prices would be cheaper for everyone" arguement.

Look at DirecTV, they were hacked to the gills, and then they fixed their problem and are now secure. Did their prices go down?

Look at cable tv and Digital cable, it has not been hacked. Their prices are higher then the satellite companies.

 

[digiblur]

Just an FYI everyone.... since another thread here has gone on the thin ice of hack talk too long, we need to remind ourselves not to link to other hack forums or give information that you read on another board, or whatever. We can talk about the piracy issue and how bad it is and what it has done to the satellite companies, etc. but let's keep it clean and legal. We do not need to put ourselves below the level, plus we do not need the black trench coat guys beating on Scott's door. We at Satelliteguys.us have good relationships with the satellite providers and would like to keep it that way.

So just think about what you post in this thread as it can easily take a turn for the bad. We haven't crossed the line here but I just wanted to give everyone a friendly reminder. Let's not put Iceberg in a bad mood on Friday afternoon

 

[SatinKzo]

I dont buy the "if no one hacked then the prices would be cheaper for everyone" arguement.

Look at DirecTV, they were hacked to the gills, and then they fixed their problem and are now secure. Did their prices go down?

Look at cable tv and Digital cable, it has not been hacked. Their prices are higher then the satellite companies.

No kidding. I hate when companies say that and I hate when courts allow it to stand as stated with the monetary amounts companies like dish come up with.

At least they could say "potentially lost revenues", not just losses. It makes it sound like the hackers actually subtracted from the bottom line. At worst, they are just not adding to it. Maybe some people do un-subscribe and start stealing, but I bet it is a small part of subscriber churn. Most I bet just would do something else.

I guess one could argue that the price of the encryption and hardware drove up the price and time/cost to implement, but going into a business, you have to figure that into the cost of business knowing that some people will always take something for free if they can.

 

[dzinkin]

Quite honestly, I love reading about cable and satellite hacking; I own John McCormac's (now outdated) book about scrambling methods as well as some old issues of Scrambling News, and I periodically read the hacking sites. It's always fascinated me from a technical perspective. But my fascination has always been satisfied by mere reading -- heck, I was reading about it well before I even owned a dish (and now that I'm temporarily without one, I'm still reading about it) -- which as far as I know is still not illegal, and I've never had the slightest temptation to try any of it. That said, I certainly understand and respect the decision not to allow such technical discussion here, because allowing the spread does cross a legal and ethical line. And anyway, I get just as much enjoyment from discussion of the people who do sell or buy this stuff.

I just don't get it... it seems to me that considering all the time and money these idiots put into theft (and I consider my time fairly valuable), in the long run it actually would cost less to buy a legit subscription to DirecTV or Dish. Even if the thought of theft per se weren't a turnoff, I think I'd be deterred by all the time involved in looking, hoping and praying for the latest "firmware updates" and other garbage to deal with the security measures. Do these people not understand that, or do they get it and just get pleasure from not paying the dish companies?

 

[stogie5150]

All I wanna know is when FTA receivers are gonna start dropping in price to what they should be. A 100.00 Coolsat HD receiver sounds GREAT.

Was Coolsat even around before the illegal stuff started happening? What were the original FTA receivers in the US?

 

[RVD420]

All I wanna know is when FTA receivers are gonna start dropping in price to what they should be. A 100.00 Coolsat HD receiver sounds GREAT.

Was Coolsat even around before the illegal stuff started happening? What were the original FTA receivers in the US?

Coolsat was not around (at least in the US) until well after FTA boxes started to be modified for freetv.

Pansat was around long before FTA boxes could be used to steal TV.

Unfortunately if it were not for FTA being able to steal TV we would be stuck with fta boxes like the Pansat 2500.

 

[SatelliteAV]

The decision to encrypt is a sound business decision not necessarily associated with greed. Most early satellite broadcasters never anticipated that services that were initially distributed for Cable TV head ends or pay per view events would create a Direct to Home market. As the DTH market grew, companies needed to protect their products and programming so they would have a value in the marketplace. If programming was available for free, why would anyone pay to carry or receive the programming on cable or subscription satellite services?

Guys .... I am hearing some ridiculous excuses for theft!

Scrambling technology is a lock.
Locks keep honest people honest

For the sake of argument .... I only have a simple single bolt lock on my front door. Is it OK for someone to pick that lock with a tool set that they were given for free and taught how to use on the internet and take my possessions out of my house without my permission? Who is at fault, the homeowner or the thief? If I had had installed a state of the art security alarm, kept guard dogs, and multiple deadbolts, would the theft of my possessions be less of my fault?

Just because the satellite signal falls on my property do I have a right to steal the content? Maybe one cannot subscribe to the service because it is illegal to do so. So be it! If programming is not legally available for subscription, then it it not legally available to you to receive! There is no gray area when it comes to receiving encrypted programming without a subscription! This is about character, morals and choosing between right and wrong.

If you live in Canada and cannot legally subscribe to Dish Network, lobby for change if you want US programming. Are you a resident of the US and want Canadian programming? Lobby for change, ask for carriage and be prepared to pay! Maybe you live in the Caribbean and cannot legally subscribe to the programming that you want. The location of your residence is not an excuse for theft!

When you do not pay for the programming that you are watching, you are stealing satellite time from the programmer, not reimbursing the owners and producers of the content. You are stealing from the artist as well as everyone who works on the production crew. Would a production assistant make better wages if there were no hackers? Probably not, but don't use that as an excuse .....

If you suggest that the providers are gouging the market, does this make it right to steal that product? I personally feel that the gas companies are charging me too much. It then must be OK to steal gas at the local station either by diverting a few gallons from the delivery tanker, siphon a few gallons out of the holding tanks or maybe even drive off without paying?

Simply put, black and white .... theft is theft! As SatelliteGuys members, let's take the high road on this subject and concentrate on protecting our right to watch programming that is available to us to watch free and unencrypted!

 

[Wescopc]

Brian,
You have said it very well!

It has been said that integrity can be defined as the person you would be if no one would ever know what you did and there were no negative consequences to you actions. Integrity is our heart; our core.
Bob

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

What Brian said..

BTW doesn't Echostar make FTA boxes sold in other countries?

 

[RVD420]

What Brian said..

BTW doesn't Echostar make FTA boxes sold in other countries?

You are right there, in Eurpoe you can get FTA boxes from Echostar with CI module slots.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Check it out for yourself...

EchoStar Europe - Digital Television Design - Powering the Free-to-Air Revolution

The title of the page is... Echostar Europe - Powering the Free-To-Air Revolution
I kid you not.

Another quote on their HOMEPAGE is this statement...

EchoStar’s digital receiver designs were tested in 15 million households before we let you see them.

See we really are beta testers for all this stuff.