DISH Drops AMC Networks (AMC Back on DISH channel 131)

[demsd]

That he is pointing out that AMC nets is trying to put every provider over a barrel. They must be asking all high prices before they agree to more reasonable ones. It seem pretty obvious to me.

This is not the "Every Other Provider" forum, its the DISH Network forum.

You, Tampa8 and me don't know how much Suddenlink's carriage fee to AMC was prior to the contract renegotiation. And its no secret that DISH and the networks use the subscriber in their little game of "polo for a penny." DISH says, "Hey, they are trying to rape us by increasing the carriage fee by 50%," which is a lie, and the network says, "You are going to miss out on "Son's of Anarchy" because DISH won't negotiate in good faith." A few news blurbs later and they come to an agreement.

This is not that game of polo for a penny.

 

[lparsons21]

The case is All About the Benjamins.

That is one of the funniest lines I've read in some time! What suit was ever brought against another business that wasn't all about the Benjamins?

Thanks for the laugh!!

 

[demsd]

According to VOOM, Dish insisted (threatened) on these programming changes against their objections - see attached. VOOM later concluded this strategy was undertaken to lessen the overall value of the VOOM HD channels so Dish could attempt to force a better deal (i.e., retiering) with VOOM or reduce the outcry should Dish illegally terminate the affiliation agreement. These are not my words - they are VOOM's who made this argument in their amended complaint (May 2008) and several times along the way. So far, everything VOOM claimed in their initial complaint has been suppored by the tens of thousands of pages of artifacts filed with the NY Supreme Court (not the sealed or redacted ones). Moreover, they have been supported or, at the least, not disputed one iota by these artifacts. Every attempt by Dish Network to destroy or surpress evidence has been met with---for lack of a better term--being bitch-slapped by the courts.

They keep saying ... "What? What you talking. This has no-ting to do wid no stinkin trial!"

I have said in at least three of my posts that DISH is being vindictive... why is it you are apparently one of the few that gets it, riffjim4069?

 

[demsd]

That is one of the funniest lines I've read in some time! What suit was ever brought against another business that wasn't all about the Benjamins?

Thanks for the laugh!!

Welcome!

 

[demsd]

If this whole thing boils down to the Voom HD days, why did Dish remove them if they where in the middle of a contract? From what I can tell the Voom channels where excellent and were high quality ahead of its time.

DISH claims that VOOM was not spending the $100 million a year.

 

[KAB]

Interesting how some people choose to spend the holiday.

 

[demsd]

Is it related to the lawsuit, sure it is. Is the lawsuit the sole reason for the dispute NO.

Yes. Yes it is. The network that is suing DISH just happens to be the same network that DISH is threatining to drop, and you think that is a coincidence?

Any channel wanting an increase in the range that Rainbow has been hinting at will have brought about the risk of the channels being dropped.

What range are you talking about? They are not having a carriage fee dispute.

It is more than a $3.6 million loss to Rainbow. If those channels are no longer on Dish, Rainbow is going to lose advertising dollars too. Losing 14 million subs for 3 or 4 channels, advertisers are going to want refunds.

I didn't realize DISH is AMC's only carrier.

Lets settle this doom and gloom forecast now, lets get rid of the channel now because I seriously doubt Dish loses more than 5000k customers over this, if that. AMC is a channel that has average ratings for 1 or 2 hours a week. Other than The Walking Dead, AMC gets for 2 hours a week around 3 million viewers (Mad Men and The Killing so far) spread out over what 6, 8, 10 providers? Breaking Bad averaged only 1.9 million viewers last season spread out over those same 6, 8, 10 providers. Again not gonna hurt Dish.

I am going to make a prediction. That prediction is You are wrong and DISH IS going to lose, whether it be a court decision, or a pre-trial settlement. By the time they pay all the legal fees and court costs, they are going to be in it for almost $1 billion.

AMC Sunday Dramas Suffer Ratings Falloff - NYTimes.com

The Pitch doesn't even make a blip in the ratings.

DISASTER: This AMC Show's Ratings Are, Literally, Zero - Business Insider

Is this solely about carriage fees. No, but is it solely about a lawsuit. No

People are getting too melodramatic about this.

"The Pitch" is one show, what about the others?

1.8 million viewers [down by about 400,000 from the first episode of season two] of "The Killing" is not bad.

Its not solely the numbers that advertisers look at. They want the dollar demographic -- the 18-49 demographic that spends the most dollars. As far as The Killing goes, it increased its rating in 18-49 demographic over last year by 0.06.

NEWS FLASH -- AMC beats out ALL original FX programming

The Walking Dead v. Sons of Anarchy

The Walking Dead Season Two
Episode 2.01 (October 16, 2011) : 7.26 million viewers (including 3.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.02 (October 23, 2011) : 6.70 million viewers (including 3.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.03 (October 30, 2011) : 6.10 million viewers (including 3.1% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.04 (November 6, 2011) : 6.29 million viewers (including 3.4% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.05 (November 13, 2011) : 6.12 million viewers (including 3.2% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.06 (November 20, 2011) : 6.08 million viewers (including 3.1% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 2.07 (November 27, 2011) : 6.62 million viewers (including 3.5% of the population between 18 and 49).

Sons of Anarchy Season Four
Episode 4.01 (September 6, 2011) : 4.93 million viewers (including 2.5% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.02 (September 13, 2011) : 3.71 million viewers (including 2.0% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.03 (September 20, 2011) : 3.42 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.04 (September 27, 2011) : 3.28 million viewers (including 1.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.05 (October 4, 2011) : 3.51 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.06 (October 11, 2011) : 3.56 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.07 (October 18, 2011) : 3.65 million viewers (including 2.0% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.08 (October 25, 2011) : 3.82 million viewers (including 2.0% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.09 (November 1, 2011) : 3.63 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.10 (November 8, 2011) : 3.93 million viewers (including 2.0% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.11 (November 15, 2011) : 4.23 million viewers (including 2.2% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.12 (November 22, 2011) : 3.85 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.13 (November 29, 2011) : 4.42 million viewers (including 2.3% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.14 (December 6, 2011) : 4.24 million viewers (including 2.1% of the population between 18 and 49).

Hells on Wheels v. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Hell on Wheels Season One
Episode 1.01 (November 6, 2011) : 4.36 million viewers (including 1.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.02 (November 13, 2011) : 3.84 million viewers (including 1.5% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.03 (November 20, 2011) : 3.52 million viewers (including 1.2% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.04 (November 27, 2011) : 3.28 million viewers (including 1.2% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.05 (December 4, 2011) : 2.70 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.06 (December 11, 2011) : 2.15 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.07 (December 18, 2011) : 2.27 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.08 (January 1, 2012) : 2.51 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.09 (January 8, 2012) : 2.29 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 1.10 (January 15, 2012) : 2.84 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia Season Seven
Episode 7.01 (September 15, 2011) : 2.28 million viewers (including 1.4% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.02 (September 22, 2011) : 1.93 million viewers (including 1.2% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.03 (September 29, 2011) : 2.03 million viewers (including 1.3% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.04 (October 6, 2011) : 1.82 million viewers (including 1.1% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.05 (October 13, 2011) : 1.42 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.06 (October 20, 2011) : 1.52 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.07 (October 27, 2011) : 1.38 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.08 (November 3, 2011) : 1.69 million viewers (including 1.1% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.09 (November 10, 2011) : 1.32 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.10 (November 17, 2011) : 1.23 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.11 (December 1, 2011) : 1.52 million viewers (including 1.0% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.12 (December 8, 2011) : 1.40 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 7.13 (December 15, 2011) : 1.32 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).


Breaking Bad v. The League

Breaking Bad Season Four
Episode 4.01 (July 17, 2011) : 2.58 million viewers (including 1.1% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.02 (July 24, 2011) : 1.97 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.03 (July 31, 2011) : 1.71 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.04 (August 7, 2011) : 1.83 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.05 (August 14, 2011) : 1.75 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.06 (August 21, 2011) : 1.67 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.07 (August 28, 2011) : 1.91 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.08 (September 4, 2011) : 1.98 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.09 (September 11, 2011) : 1.89 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.10 (September 18, 2011) : 1.80 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.11 (September 25, 2011) : 1.55 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.12 (October 2, 2011) : 1.73 million viewers (including 0.8% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 4.13 (October 9, 2011) : 1.90 million viewers (including 1.0% of the population between 18 and 49).

The League Season Three
Episode 3.01 (October 6, 2011) : 1.29 million viewers (including 0.9% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.02 (October 13, 2011) : 0.95 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.03 (October 20, 2011) : 1.05 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.04 (October 27, 2011) : 0.91 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.05 (November 3, 2011) : 1.17 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.06 (November 10, 2011) : 0.87 million viewers (including 0.5% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.07 (November 17, 2011) : 0.86 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.08 (November 17, 2011) : 0.?? million viewers (including 0.?% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.09 (December 1, 2011) : 1.01 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.10 (December 8, 2011) : 1.03 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.11 (December 15, 2011) : 1.01 million viewers (including 0.7% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.12 (December 22, 2011) : 0.98 million viewers (including 0.6% of the population between 18 and 49).
Episode 3.13 (December 22, 2011) : 0.89 million viewers (including 0.5% of the population between 18 and 49).


If its about the ratings, why isn't DISH dropping FX? Could it be FX is not suing DISH?

 

[dtro77]

Thank you DEMSD!


Lots of channels with worse ratings then AMC
And has about Half the commercials as FX

 

[demsd]

Demsd, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Unless you have some inside knowledge, there's no way you can say with any certainty that this is all about the lawsuit.

Have you read the court documents or any of the legal briefs?

My point is that Dish's monthly per sub profit margins are not very high. The numbers thrown out here are a very big deal to Dish's bottom line. You let AMC hit 75 cents and all of a sudden ESPN and the other cable nets want even more and pretty soon Dish either drops channels or ends up with profits approaching zero. Regardless of the case, any significant increase would be disputed and the channels would be threatened.

How about you prove that AMC told DISH they want $0.75 per sub per month.

To a certain extent, you even made my argument for me. With a multi-billion dollar payday as a possibility, AMC's profit attributable to Dish is chump change. It stands to reason that Dish using it as leverage in the case is laughable given the disparity of values. The analysis changes if AMC believes that settling is in their best interests (case not being as strong as they'd like, wanting the money now instead of dragging it out, whatever the reason).

Then again, Dish may not be doing it for rational reasons, it could just be spite. But I'm not big on attributing human emotions to corporate entities where the bottom line tends to be king.

So, you are saying you really didn't have an argument, you only wanted to get your two cents in.

Again, have you read the court documents or any of the legal briefs? If so, do you understand anything you read?

What is clear to me is that this is unlikely to force a settlement if AMC is not already so inclined. So I'll stand by my initial statements: the court case might discourage Dish from being as compromising as it would normally be in negotiating carriage agreements, but ultimately I still think this all revolves around cost. If Dish gets a price it can live with, the channels will stay up, if not, it might be a while before they show up again.

Unless you have some inside knowledge, there's no way you can say with any certainty.

DISH has not said that AMC wanted a $0.49 increase, and because of that they are dropping the AMC channels. They are claiming that DISH sub viewership of AMC is down. I'd like to see those numbers -- I doubt that any real numbers would substantiate their claim.

 

[KAB]

Get a room, you two!!

 

[demsd]

You must be kidding. Are you just making up responses? Others have answered this so I won't repeat links, but open your eyes, AMC shows are not doing well. "Almost Zero." (A direct quote)

Hard to dispute me on that when AMC is actually saying it.....

Where, what?

I proved that you are wrong -- see post #727.

I am not a market analysist quessing you are not either, but your opinion (or mine) makes no difference as to they do or don't deserve more. You don't see the folly of that list of channels AMC is using? It makes them seem more pathetic. News and Sports channels are a different animal. At some points they deliver more viewers than AMC ever does, it's news or sports cycles. And CNN is indeed in a situation where they can't demand any more, I'm not sure they won't have to make some concessions. The Sports channels in the list are seasonal, or new. Do you really think the NFL network doesn't get very good ratings during the season or having it draws subscribers. I would say since Dish does not do the NFL Sunday package, having NFLZ and NFLN satisfies a good portion of viewers and indeed accounts for more people than AMC does.
Why isn't AMC comparing themselves to TNT or USA? I think we know why.

What list of channels are you referring to? If they are CNN, CNBC, Fox News Channel, NFL Network, NHL Network and NBC Sports Network, I used those channels to make my point. And I did. The content the channel provides is not relevant. What IS relevant is can how can CNN command $0.54 per sub per month, when its ratings are lower than that of AMC? Anderson Cooper and Piers Morgan are CNN's 8PM-11PM prime time shows, and all they could muster was a combined 395,000 viewers!

I am pointing out another provider who publically is saying the rates will not be paid. Don't you think there are others when the contract comes up that will be saying the same thing?

You have yet to prove that AMC wanted a 50% increase from anyone.

I will once again say it's not a good thing for Dish to lose AMC. The point is it's not just about the lawsuit, not by a long shot. And while not good losing it, I'm not seeing how losing AMC will send people running to change providers.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are clearly not seeing the forest for the trees. The long shot is suggesting that the main reason for DISH's threat is viewership and/or a carriage fee dispute -- DISH clearly said its not a carriage fee dispute.

I have been with DISH for seven years. I stay because I like their equipment, the price is right and the service I have no complaints with. That being said, I am not a blind consumer. I read the court documents. Its clear to me that this breach of contract dispute is the sole reason for DISH threatening to drop AMC. DISH is having its satellites handed to it in court, and its hard for them to share the covers with the very network that is suing them. And now, DISH wants to get out of bed with AMC, or they are turing the screws to get a settlement they can live with without breaking the bank.

 

[mike123abc]

According to the posts above highest rated show is 6.5 million viewers. Note that is for 6 hours in a year's period. Next is about 3.5 for 14 hours. Under 2 million for 23 hours. So you have 43 hours out of a year. Then you have to figure out what % are dish viewers. It probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands max. Then you have to consider how many are able to drop without contract penalty. All in all Dish knows that it will probably cause less than 10k viewer drops if they keep AMC off a year, probably less than 100k if they NEVER put AMC back on....

 

[dangue]

The court document and legal briefs say zilch about the carriage dispute. Why? Because the case has nothing to do with the current channels that are up for renewal. That means, contrary to your claim, that reading any of those documents will not shed any light on Dish's current motivations with regards to the current dispute. So, again, I will repeat myself: unless you have inside knowledge related to Dish's negotiating position over this dispute, you have no factual basis for which to claim that this dispute is "ALL about" the lawsuit. (your thesis)

Insulting my reading comprehension is not going to change that. And since I haven't commented on the merits of the case itself, WTF do you get off talking down to me?

As for why isn't Dish dropping FX, it's because the contract isn't up for renewal. Last time it was up for renewal, it (along with other Fox stations) was dropped for some time.

I'm not privy to the current price negotiations, so I have no idea what is being asked. What I can say is that Charlie said there is a place for the AMC networks, just not at the price they are currently demanding. And the AMC guy has said publicly that he believes his network is worth much more than what it currently receives. that tells me that they aren't looking to keep the current terms or have a modest increase.

This dispute is all about the money, I just don't think it's all about the money that is being contested in court. Proposed carriage rates are a big deal. If Dish doesn't like the offer, they will drop the channel.

Sent from my iPhone using SatelliteGuys

 

[demsd]

Its motivation is the lawsuit.

 

[demsd]

According to the posts above highest rated show is 6.5 million viewers. Note that is for 6 hours in a year's period. Next is about 3.5 for 14 hours. Under 2 million for 23 hours. So you have 43 hours out of a year. Then you have to figure out what % are dish viewers. It probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands max. Then you have to consider how many are able to drop without contract penalty. All in all Dish knows that it will probably cause less than 10k viewer drops if they keep AMC off a year, probably less than 100k if they NEVER put AMC back on....

What are you talking about... highest rated show is 6.5 million for 6 hours in a year, 3.5 for 14 hours?

I already posted that DISH serves nearly 14 million U.S. households, a base that accounts for 15 percent of AMC’s subscriber base (95.7 million). Your claim is that only a few hundred thousand of that 15% watch AMC, and a subs ability to break their contract all factors into how many DISH subs watch AMC?

You lost me.

 

[Tampa8]

What I can say is that Charlie said there is a place for the AMC networks, just not at the price they are currently demanding. And the AMC guy has said publicly that he believes his network is worth much more than what it currently receives. that tells me that they aren't looking to keep the current terms or have a modest increase.

That really is the bottom line, and actually that hits it better and right on more than going on and on about ratings etc.... of which I have been doing too.

 

[KAB]

COME ON EVERBODY...ESPECIALLY demsd!!! This has become a swirling, down the flusher of a thread. Everybody just go to bed, relax, or whatever. It's getting too personal, and needs to stop....yes, demsd..I mean you.

 

[eurosport]

...just had to.

 

[dare2be]

eurosport, how's Beryl treating you? Aside from being woken up multiple times last night from the wind/rain noise, doing fine here.

(since this thread is already swirling around...)

 

[eurosport]

eurosport, how's Beryl treating you? Aside from being woken up multiple times last night from the wind/rain noise, doing fine here.

(since this thread is already swirling around...)

LOL! just a bunch of rain here. Not much wind, but raining all day & still raining now. Not too hard either, just a good all-day soaker. We needed it. Been way too dry around here lately.