Ciel 2 Tracking

[digiblur]

So help us out here digiblur.

Do you know what is actually going on, and where it is?

Nope. No NORAD satellite tracking technology here. It's just funny to hear people talk about where the satellite is at when they are looking at data from an old TLE. I love the remarks of "it's going to crash!" or "wait! Put on the brakes you passed 110W!!"

ny2o.com needs a disclaimer but no one would probably read it There might be one and I didn't read it myself.

 

[HDRoberts]

Nope. No NORAD satellite tracking technology here. It's just funny to hear people talk about where the satellite is at when they are looking at data from an old TLE. I love the remarks of "it's going to crash!" or "wait! Put on the brakes you passed 110W!!"

ny2o.com needs a disclaimer but no one would probably read it There might be one and I didn't read it myself.

Heck, they do quite the opposite. They claim to have "Real Time" tracking. Another reason I prefer Heavens Above. If only they calculated longitude.

 

[apollog]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ciel 2 is put into service by mid January 09. Charlie does what ever he wants.

 

[space86]

How many more HD Channels can be had from the new satellite?

 

[HDRoberts]

How many more HD Channels can be had from the new satellite?

Well, there are 16 CONUS TPs. 2 likely to still be reserved for part time RSNs. 14 TPs * 7 = 98 Linear CONUS HD Channels. A cursory look shows around 70 on there now (maybe more). Locals will probably go to spot. Maybe 28 more spaces? (4 TPs).

 

[kstuart]

How many more HD Channels can be had from the new satellite?

In theory, Ciel-2 can host 112 National HD channels and 1015 Local HD channels.

As soon as it goes online, the only limitation will be the available space on Eastern Arc.

 

[Fitzie]

In theory, Ciel-2 can host 112 National HD channels and 1015 Local HD channels.

As soon as it goes online, the only limitation will be the available space on Eastern Arc.

Thanks for the pithy summary.

There should be no problem, then, in adding 30 or so national HD channels in early 2009. And, so far as the Western Arc goes, no problem in adding all the HD locals willing to come aboard.

The Dish goals of 150 national channels and 150 locals in HD by mid-2009 are within reach.

According to Neilson (2008 data) there are now 210 identified local DMAs, and Dish carries about 195 of them. If Dish carried the big 4 (ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox) in HD in all local DMAs currently covered that would only be 780 slots. (Carrying the 800 or so local TV stations in HD that are not part of the big 4 would take more capacity, probably 2 more satellites, one eastern arc and the other western arc.)

[As a side note, the bottom 15 DMA markets combined total only about 500,000 or so households.]

Regards,
Fitzie

 

[HDRoberts]

(Carrying the 800 or so local TV stations in HD that are not part of the big 4 would take more capacity, probably 2 more satellites, one eastern arc and the other western arc.)

And, perhaps not coincidentally, over the next 2 years, Dish has:
Nimiq-5 to EA-72.7. This may have spotbeams. Not sure
Echostar 14 to WA-119. Likely to have spotbeams. Maybe a lot of spotbeams
Quetzsat-1 to EA-77. Likely to have spotbeams. Probably to cover the Eastern US not covered by E12 or Nimiq-5 at that point.

Plus, Echostar 15 is likely to go to 61.5

Between space on 110, 77, 129, and 61.5, Dish should be good for at least 30 if not 40 or more national HD channels. So long as they make them real national HD.

Problem is, after that, no more space on both arcs (at the same time. Their may be space on the EA). If so, Dish needs to get it's plans in order to make space. Ka at 107, MPEG4 on the western arc, something.

 

[Fitzie]

And, perhaps not coincidentally, over the next 2 years, Dish has:
Nimiq-5 to EA-72.7. This may have spotbeams. Not sure
Echostar 14 to WA-119. Likely to have spotbeams. Maybe a lot of spotbeams
Quetzsat-1 to EA-77. Likely to have spotbeams. Probably to cover the Eastern US not covered by E12 or Nimiq-5 at that point.

Plus, Echostar 15 is likely to go to 61.5

Between space on 110, 77, 129, and 61.5, Dish should be good for at least 30 if not 40 or more national HD channels. So long as they make them real national HD.

Problem is, after that, no more space on both arcs (at the same time. Their may be space on the EA). If so, Dish needs to get it's plans in order to make space. Ka at 107, MPEG4 on the western arc, something.

Yeah. First things first, though, is for us all to get our big 4 HD locals and the first 30 or so HD national channels. I'm still wondering about the ESPN-U HD and Fox group carriage.

I checked the n2yo site over as well as I could to see if i could find any disclaimer--none. Just a claim of "live tracking." I noticed they're using the same TLEs, so the question becomes, what does "live" mean. I also noticed a site discrepancy, on one page Ciel-2 is shown at 136.5W, while the "live tracking" has it at 129.97 or something of that sort. I dislike these unresolved discrepancies.

Fitzie

 

[Dah-Henny]

Charlie paid big bucks to stop any more TLE's for Ciel2, mainly in retaliation for all of the Charlie bashing going on here at SatGuys.

 

[Quantum]

Charlie paid big bucks to stop any more TLE's for Ciel2, mainly in retaliation for all of the Charlie bashing going on here at SatGuys.

Really? How much did you pay Charlie?

 

[rocatman]

Thanks for the pithy summary.

There should be no problem, then, in adding 30 or so national HD channels in early 2009. And, so far as the Western Arc goes, no problem in adding all the HD locals willing to come aboard.

The Dish goals of 150 national channels and 150 locals in HD by mid-2009 are within reach.

According to Neilson (2008 data) there are now 210 identified local DMAs, and Dish carries about 195 of them. If Dish carried the big 4 (ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox) in HD in all local DMAs currently covered that would only be 780 slots. (Carrying the 800 or so local TV stations in HD that are not part of the big 4 would take more capacity, probably 2 more satellites, one eastern arc and the other western arc.)

[As a side note, the bottom 15 DMA markets combined total only about 500,000 or so households.]

Regards,
Fitzie

Power limitations of the Ciel-2 satellite will limit the number of spotbeams used so the number of locals added to 129 W will increase significantly but all the spotbeam capacity will not be used at least initially. For HD, the FCC has already put in place requirements for the satellite companies to provide all the HD channels in a DMA in a phased in fashion, I believe 15% of the DMAs they provide HD locals by the end of 2009.

As a side note to another post, Nimiq 5 does not have spotbeams only CONUS TPs. E-14 will have spotbeams. In terms of more space, besides conversion to MPEG-4 there is the "reverse DBS" slots on the horizon. The Ciel-3 satellite will be a "reverse DBS" satellite located at 118.7 W where the Anik-F3 satellite is located that Dish leases for international programming.

 

[MrDogDad]

Yeah. First things first, though, is for us all to get our big 4 HD locals and the first 30 or so HD national channels. I'm still wondering about the ESPN-U HD and Fox group carriage.

I checked the n2yo site over as well as I could to see if i could find any disclaimer--none. Just a claim of "live tracking." I noticed they're using the same TLEs, so the question becomes, what does "live" mean. I also noticed a site discrepancy, on one page Ciel-2 is shown at 136.5W, while the "live tracking" has it at 129.97 or something of that sort. I dislike these unresolved discrepancies.

Fitzie

Any system that uses TLEs cannot be considered "Live Tracking". TLEs are a snapshot of the location and motion of an object at a given time (the epoch time). As soon as a thruster is fired, the TLE becomes outdated. Even when they are fresh, TLEs are not the most accurate way to track a satellite, since they are the product of NORAD using skin tracking (RADAR) as opposed to active ranging.

 

[HDRoberts]

Power limitations of the Ciel-2 satellite will limit the number of spotbeams used so the number of locals added to 129 W will increase significantly but all the spotbeam capacity will not be used at least initially. For HD, the FCC has already put in place requirements for the satellite companies to provide all the HD channels in a DMA in a phased in fashion, I believe 15% of the DMAs they provide HD locals by the end of 2009.

As a side note to another post, Nimiq 5 does not have spotbeams only CONUS TPs. E-14 will have spotbeams. In terms of more space, besides conversion to MPEG-4 there is the "reverse DBS" slots on the horizon. The Ciel-3 satellite will be a "reverse DBS" satellite located at 118.7 W where the Anik-F3 satellite is located that Dish leases for international programming.

Good points all around. I wasn't sure about what payload Nimiq-5 had.

What exactly is reverse DBS? From what I read it looks like simply reversing the traditional uplink and downlink frequencies. But wouldn't that require new dishes, LNBs and a rather massive repoint effort?

 

[Dah-Henny]

Charlie paid big bucks to stop any more TLE's for Ciel2, mainly in retaliation for all of the Charlie bashing going on here at SatGuys.

Really? How much did you pay Charlie?

The around these parts usually signifies jest. Charlie couldn't stop a TLE if he wanted to.

 

[rocatman]

Good points all around. I wasn't sure about what payload Nimiq-5 had.

What exactly is reverse DBS? From what I read it looks like simply reversing the traditional uplink and downlink frequencies. But wouldn't that require new dishes, LNBs and a rather massive repoint effort?

You are correct about "reverse DBS". If there was a "reverse DBS" satellite deployed at 118.7 W that Dish has use of, they could develop a combo LNB to replace the standard LNB for 119 W similiar to the one used for 119 W and 118.7 W now with Anik-F3. I believe Dish has applied for "reverse DBS" slots at 61.9 W and 77.2 W, 110 W, 114.5 W and 119 W. You can see that most are very close to their regular DBS slots but I am a bit confused about the Ciel-3 satellite being built with reverse DBS at 118.7 W that would appear to conflict with Dish's 119 W slot.

 

[HDRoberts]

You are correct about "reverse DBS". If there was a "reverse DBS" satellite deployed at 118.7 W that Dish has use of, they could develop a combo LNB to replace the standard LNB for 119 W similiar to the one used for 119 W and 118.7 W now with Anik-F3. I believe Dish has applied for "reverse DBS" slots at 61.9 W and 77.2 W, 110 W, 114.5 W and 119 W. You can see that most are very close to their regular DBS slots but I am a bit confused about the Ciel-3 satellite being built with reverse DBS at 118.7 W that would appear to conflict with Dish's 119 W slot.

Are new dishes required to receive in the 17khz range (like the 1000+), or would they just need to replace 1000, 1000.2 and 1000.4 LNBs?

118.7 and 119 is confusing. Seems like only one would be usable. Maybe just trying to cover all bases incase one or the other is denied.

114.5 confuses me more, though. They have nothing there. And it messes up the balance: 2 slots in the EA, 2 in the WA.

 

[kstuart]

I think that you need a separate Reverse DBS thread - not because it is "off topic", but because you would then be more likely to attract those members who know a lot about it...

 

[mike123abc]

118.7 and 119 is confusing. Seems like only one would be usable. Maybe just trying to cover all bases incase one or the other is denied.

They use different frequencies. They are using adjacent blocks of 500 MHZ of spectrum. Ku DBS as it is known in the US is the valuable space at 61.5, 101, 110, 119, 148, and 157. Dish is leasing the space from Canada at 72.7, and 129, and Mexico at 77. The satellites are widely spaced apart so small dishes work easily.

The other Ku FSS band only has 2 degree spacing, 105, 121 and 118.7 are examples of Dish use of that space. Dish gave up on superdish 105 and 121 since the close spacing of the satellites made them hard to aim, and the dishes had to be larger. They just have 118.7 for customer use (and you have to use the larger dish to get it).

 

[HDRoberts]

They use different frequencies. They are using adjacent blocks of 500 MHZ of spectrum. Ku DBS as it is known in the US is the valuable space at 61.5, 101, 110, 119, 148, and 157. Dish is leasing the space from Canada at 72.7, and 129, and Mexico at 77. The satellites are widely spaced apart so small dishes work easily.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about the existing sats at 118.7 and 119. If I read rocatman correctly, they are asking for the same reverse DBS frequencies at 118.7 and 119. I'm not talking FSS.