Bonds Stands Alone #756 *

[sidekick]

On that note though, wasn't Roger Maris' 61 home runs a remarkable achievement for a man who never had anything close to that number before or after? He had 39 the year before and 31 the year after. Was he on steroids as well in 1961? Barry Bonds had 49 homers the year before the 73 and 46 the year after. Beyond the obvious, how is that different from Maris? Percentage wise, I'd say it's very close. Further, Hank Aaron admitted in his autobiography that he took amphetamines in 1968. Does that admission render his stats suspect as well?

i have no evidence that eh is on steroids mow and given the testing, the BALCO case, and the Mitchell inestigation he would be crazy to be on them now.

yes his 1993 stats were impressive---along with his 2007 ones. But what leads people to think he was "juiced" at some point is the the BALCO investigation and the incredible increase in his home run output around the turn of the century. Citing his production proves he is a good athlete but does not prove or disprove whether he was using steroids during the years in question. interestingly his 73 hom e run was not during the period of the formal ban but several other years were and his 73 home run year was one of the factors that put pressure on baseball to enact a ban.

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Roger Maris wasn't 37 when he hit 61. 73 dingers at the age of 37. Yeah, right . That wasn't steroids, just a freak year. You obviously believe in the Easter Bunny also. Bonds was having a great career before he started "juicing", he probabily wouldn't have the record, but he would have retired legitimately as one of the best there ever was. Now he's just the best that ever "juiced".

 

[sidekick]

And what about those players who took greenies like Aaron?

 

[ddub]

This whole discussion about putting an asterisk beside Bonds' records is ridiculous. If you're going to asterisk Bonds' records, then you have to do the same with McGwire's, Sosa's, Palmeiro's, etc. While your at it, might as well throw in Pete Rose. He broke the rules by gambling so he must of done other things. Darryl Strawberry is a drug addict so he must have be doing something illegal during his career as well. You cannot go back & negate someone's accomplishments because of the hearsay of a few blown way out of proportion by the media.
Let's look beyond the home runs though. Do you think steroids helped him win 8 Gold Gloves? Do you think steroids helped him steal over 500 bases? Do you think steroids help him win 7 MVP awards? No. Steroids do not improve hand-eye coordination, they do not make you faster, they do not make you a better judge of a fly ball or have a cannon arm. They build muscle mass & improve resistance to injury. And if you are injured, they improve recovery time. Muscle mass doesn't lead to more homers. Look at Ken Griffey Jr. A class act all the way around. No one questions his purity. He's half Bonds' size & has over 500 home runs. Same with A-Rod. It's about finesse. And even if you take away 250-300 of Bonds' home runs, he's still a Hall of Famer because of his defensive skills.
Bottom line is, no one can prove or disprove he did anything illegal & until you can, you cannot punish him.

 

[salsadancer7]

And yes while steroids do not directly make you hit more home runs they do give you a leg up on one of the things that helps that---developing physical strength. i think it ii disingenous in the extreme to state that they do not help you acquire the "skills" to hit home runs. Strength is not a skill but it helps to hit home runs. that is why players take them.

Sorry, you are wrong. Home run hitters are not developed by strength. It is the bat speed through the strike zone. Hank Aaron had the THINNEST wrist you have EVER seen in your life in his younger days and he was not a big guy by no stretch of the imagination.

And folks....baseball players take 'roids differently than other sports. Baseball now is a YEAR ROUND thing as far as staying physically fit. Baseball players do NOT rely on physical strength like football players do. They rely on flexibility and fluidness....VERY similar to basketball, soccer and tennis players. They need a strong burst of energy immediately. That kind of request from the body requires year around workouts for the major league ball player. They play MORE games than ANY OTHER SPORT...hands down. If you are talking about a player like A-Rod, between spring training, regular season and playoffs....you are quite possibly talking over 200 games in 3 different seasons(spring, summer, fall)...!! Steroids helps the body recoup faster...when the body recoups faster...you can workout more...then the more you workout...the stronger you get....simple. Steroids itself does not add muscle. It also does not improve eye-hand coordination....there has been no proof that it can generate bat speed.....nor has there been proof that it can't ....

Baseball players take steroids because the better chance you have to STAY healthy....the better chance you have to stay competitive....it is not just for home runs......

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Are you guys saying the "the end justifies the means"? This is just sad. This was the most hallowed record in sports. It means nothing to me now. Some of these arguments are just silly. You guys dont see any connection between those numbers and steroid use? Does anybody seriously think Bonds did not use steroids?

 

[cybok0]

Pirates To Honor Bonds With A Video Tribute

(KDKA) PITTSBURGH Major league baseball's new home run king's return to Pittsburgh on Monday just got a lot more interesting.

In what should be an interesting scene with Pirate fans, the Pirates will honor Bonds with a video tribute Monday between games of a makeup doubleheader.

Bonds was a first round pick of the Pirates back in 1986. He also was two-time National League MVP and led them to the playoffs from 1990-92. He left Pittsburgh after 1992 and signed a free agent contract with the San Francisco Giants.

In 95 career games vs. the Pirates, Bonds has hit 21 home runs.

Bonds' career statistics while playing for the Pirates:

1986: 113 games, 413 at-bats, .223 Avg, 16 HR, 48 RBI
1987: 150 games, 551 at-bats, .261 Avg, 25 HR, 59 RBI
1988: 144 games, 538 at-bats, .283 Avg, 24 HR, 58 RBI
1989: 159 games, 580 at-bats, .248 Avg, 19 HR, 58 RBI
1990: 151 games, 519 at-bats, .301 Avg, 33 HR, 114 RBI
1991: 153 games, 510 at-bats, .292 Avg, 25 HR, 116 RBI
1992: 140 games, 473 at-bats, .311 Avg, 34 HR, 103 RBI

kdka.com - Pirates To Honor Bonds With A Video Tribute

I wounder if fans are going to cheer or boo the tribute. I might just have to go to the game just so I can boo.

 

[salsadancer7]

Are you guys saying the "the end justifies the means"? This is just sad. This was the most hallowed record in sports. It means nothing to me now. Some of these arguments are just silly. You guys dont see any connection between those numbers and steroid use? Does anybody seriously think Bonds did not use steroids?

Jim...you are overreacting. I doubt ANYONE is justifying the use of steroids nor is anyone defending the use by Bonds. But lets be honest here....when Jose Canseco stated he thought approx. 3/4 of the major leagues could be using....he was not far off. There was no testing/screening or investigation into what was going on. And seeing that these ballplayers are fighting for their jobs, I would not be surprised if 75% is a conservative estimate. There is no doubt in MY MIND that the record tainted...but like Charper1 said:

The bottom lines are:

1. They do not help you see, hit or acquire the skills needed to be a great hitter.

2. They were not banned, nor tested for during any of the times in question.

3. There is really no way to substantially prove, 110% beyond ANY doubt, that ANY player in the "non-banned" "non-testing" time frame knowingly took them. The same holds true for back in the day of all the "heroes" that are now having their records assaulted. We didn't test for anything then and have no idea what they may have been on at the time. Lets start some mass media rumoring and bashing on them; dead or alive and taint all their records and accomplishments with no way to prove the case and see what happens.

4. So the time has come to:

a. Admit that if this were any nice guy player such as pre-congress Mark McGuire we would not be bashing.

b. Adopt strict new bans, testing and punishments, AND drop all the speculative hearsay and banter by people simply trying to make money, sell books, take players down the drain, or just hate on Barry, etc. and just .........................

MOVE ON ALREADY!

And this is all coming from a Dodger loving Giants hater.. I say congrats Barry; you deserve the record (w/o asterisk)!

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Who is Jim?

 

[Madtown HD Junkie]

Steroids can be used to speed up the healing process. This would have been common especially with athletes straining muscles, etc. You can virtually find a doctor anywhere who will prescribe anything you desire. Thus the illegality factor is out the window. Further as you'll remember, it wasn't that long ago where you could still buy andro and HGH over the counter. And I'm talking about a couple of years. With Bonds, you're talking about a guy who apparently had enough "man" in him and enough ability to hit 46 dingers in 1993. Was he on steroids back then as well? Further, he has hit 23 home runs this year in only 269 at bats and he's 43 years old!!! Di you think he's still on the juice?

InfoFacts - Steroids (Anabolic-Androgenic) Here is steroids description.

what OTC place did you to get HGH? Human growth Hormone can not even be prescribed by the average Dr in almost all instances. They need to be prescribed by an endocrinologist.
Human growth hormone (HGH): Does it slow aging process? - MayoClinic.com

Bonds did what many did in the 90's. That said, the record was still tainted.

 

[Paul Wozniak]

At least one other person sees this clearly, and not from fanboy glasses.

 

[brainiac]

It's funny that none of you guys ever have a problem with the "unfair advantages" that Babe Ruth had...played the majority of his career in the Live Ball Era (note his jump in homerun totals from '19 to '20 in just 25 more at-bats), and had the ultimate advantage - no one of color allowed to compete. While you're throwing those asterisks around, throw one his way too.

 

[Madtown HD Junkie]

It's funny that none of you guys ever have a problem with the "unfair advantages" that Babe Ruth had...played the majority of his career in the Live Ball Era (note his jump in homerun totals from '19 to '20 in just 25 more at-bats), and had the ultimate advantage - no one of color allowed to compete. While you're throwing those asterisks around, throw one his way too.

"...also referred to as the lively ball era, is the period in Major League Baseball beginning in 1920, following the dead-ball era. During that year offensive statistics rose dramatically in what would be mistakenly attributed to the introduction of a new "lively" ball. The construction of the balls remained consistent, but rule changes gave more advantages to the batter.

In the year following the Black Sox scandal, the new Commissioner of Baseball, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, instituted several new rules. Previous to that time, the same ball would be used throughout the game and foul balls would be thrown back on the field and reused. This gave the fielders many opportunities to give their pitcher an advantage by scuffing the ball. Starting in 1920 new balls were replaced at the first sign of wear, resulting in a ball that was much brighter and easier for a hitter to see. The other major rule change was the elimination of the spitball."

wiki

 

[salsadancer7]

At least one other person sees this clearly, and not from fanboy glasses.

Not a "fanboy"...hell, the 3 players I despise the most(and mind you, because of my past in sports media....I have met ALOT MORE people in sports than most, I can HONESTLY say I know these people) are Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez. But when it comes to sports in terms of REALITY, I think with my head and not my heart. Like I said, do I THINK he used them? ABSOLUTELY! But like Jose Canseco said, AND I BELIEVE, approx. 75% of the MLB was using SOME KIND of "drug-type performance enhancer"...whether it was greenies, steroids, hgh, LASIK surgery(though NOT a "drug", it does ENHANCE VISION and done artificially!) growth hormones...when there was no testing what so ever or when it was NOT condered illegal. Though NOT RIGHT to take those advantages...they did and they were NOT considered illegal at the time. NOTHING we can do about that. ALSO, everyone all moaning and bitching about this CANNOT DENY that Barry Bonds is one of the greatest players IN OUR LIFETIME.....he has changed the game completely. AND, since the whole issue started with performance enhancing drugs...no other player has been tested as much as he has....and he has been clean....and STILL hitting TAPE MEASURE home runs.

 

[Ramy]

"...also referred to as the lively ball era, is the period in Major League Baseball beginning in 1920, following the dead-ball era. During that year offensive statistics rose dramatically in what would be mistakenly attributed to the introduction of a new "lively" ball. The construction of the balls remained consistent, but rule changes gave more advantages to the batter.

In the year following the Black Sox scandal, the new Commissioner of Baseball, Kenesaw Mountain Landis, instituted several new rules. Previous to that time, the same ball would be used throughout the game and foul balls would be thrown back on the field and reused. This gave the fielders many opportunities to give their pitcher an advantage by scuffing the ball. Starting in 1920 new balls were replaced at the first sign of wear, resulting in a ball that was much brighter and easier for a hitter to see. The other major rule change was the elimination of the spitball."

wiki

You hit the nail on the head. They just did some stuff to the rules and that's why players hit more.

 

[sidekick]

Absolutely, and well-stated. People love to have a whipping boy, and Barry Bonds is just that for most outside of the San Francisco area. What does Paul say about Norm Cash of the Tigers who admitted using a corked bat when he won the batting title in 1961. Should we put an asterisk by his name? Ban him from the record books? If he's so concerned about purity in the game, I think he should write a letter to the commish suggesting that.

Not a "fanboy"...hell, the 3 players I despise the most(and mind you, because of my past in sports media....I have met ALOT MORE people in sports than most, I can HONESTLY say I know these people) are Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez. But when it comes to sports in terms of REALITY, I think with my head and not my heart. Like I said, do I THINK he used them? ABSOLUTELY! But like Jose Canseco said, AND I BELIEVE, approx. 75% of the MLB was using SOME KIND of "drug-type performance enhancer"...whether it was greenies, steroids, hgh, LASIK surgery(though NOT a "drug", it does ENHANCE VISION and done artificially!) growth hormones...when there was no testing what so ever or when it was NOT condered illegal. Though NOT RIGHT to take those advantages...they did and they were NOT considered illegal at the time. NOTHING we can do about that. ALSO, everyone all moaning and bitching about this CANNOT DENY that Barry Bonds is one of the greatest players IN OUR LIFETIME.....he has changed the game completely. AND, since the whole issue started with performance enhancing drugs...no other player has been tested as much as he has....and he has been clean....and STILL hitting TAPE MEASURE home runs.

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Lasik? OK, lets ban eyeglasses too. They improve vision artificially also. Steroids are not illegal? Again, more silly arguments. I'll ask again - Do the ends justify the means to you guys? If you guys can live with this , that's fine. To convince me, you'll need something more substansive in your arguments. Good luck. Sorry guys, but this record is tainted, any way you want to justify it.

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Salsa, you are right about one thing - Bonds and the rest of the steroid players did change the game. Unfortunately, not for the better. Bonds was one of the best the game has ever seen WITHOUT the steroids. He would not have broke the record WITHOUT steroids. He is still hitting tape measure HRs. because he PREVIOUSLY used steroids.

 

[sidekick]

So Paul, will you sign a petition to have MLB put an asterisk by Norm Cash's name since his batting title in 1961 was obviously tainted?

 

[Paul Wozniak]

I don't sign anything. If Cash cheated, remove the title. I believe Al Kaline was second in the batting average race that season. Give the title to him. I don't care if there is an asterick on Bond's record. Asterick's don't mean sh*t, and neither does his record. I'll respect the record again when a "clean" player breaks it.