How about that complete moron Ken Gurnick? He said he wouldn't vote for anyone who played in the steroid era, so he didn't vote for Maddux, et al. Here's the kicker, he did vote for Jack Morris, WHO PLAYED IN THE STEROID ERA!
2014 MLB Hall of Fame elections
- Thread starter Ramy
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When do you figure the steroid era started in force ?
Morris was pitching from 77 to 94, with his time in Toronto the tail end of his career.
Geez guys gimme some credit here. I meant to say between the two of them, who would you vote for,,,,
That's a tough one. Randy Johnson dominated over a longer period of time, but one could argue that Pedro was the most dominating pitcher EVER over a 6 year period (1997-2002). If I got one vote it would go to Pedro, but fortunately we know both are getting in.
I'll vote the other way, for Johnson, but as we mentioned previously, they are both getting in.
I've seen Johnson's entire career from the wild pitcher in Montreal to Seattle and so forth ...
I didn't follow Martinez till his Boston days and then just as the opponent .
Both players are deserving.
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Greg Maddux from just before that... From 1992 to 1998.
ERA no higher than 2.72, and the league leader in ERA four of those seven years.
2.18
2.36
1.56
1.63
2.70
2.20
2.22
Aggregate 2.12. Average 18+ wins a year. 56 complete games. 19 shutouts. 200+ innings a year. Average 183+ strikeouts a year from a guy who wasn't a power pitcher. Average less than 1 WHIP. 4 straight Cy Young awards and top 5 every season.
It is likely that his batting average exceeded the batting average of his opponents.
In back to back games he pitched a 76 pitch complete game and an 84 pitch complete game shutout.
So yeah, I would argue that Maddux was a better over the same length of time. If you didn't get to him by the second or third inning you didn't get to him.
Don't get me wrong, Pedro was my second favorite pitcher from the 1990s / early 2000s. But methinks you got a tad bit exuberant there when you said ever
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Greg Maddux from just before that... From 1992 to 1998.
ERA no higher than 2.72, and the league leader in ERA four of those seven years.
2.18
2.36
1.56
1.63
2.70
2.20
2.22
Aggregate 2.12. Average 18+ wins a year. 56 complete games. 19 shutouts. 200+ innings a year. Average 183+ strikeouts a year from a guy who wasn't a power pitcher. Average less than 1 WHIP. 4 straight Cy Young awards and top 5 every season.
It is likely that his batting average exceeded the batting average of his opponents.
In back to back games he pitched a 76 pitch complete game and an 84 pitch complete game shutout.
So yeah, I would argue that Maddux was a better over the same length of time. If you didn't get to him by the second or third inning you didn't get to him.
Don't get me wrong, Pedro was my second favorite pitcher from the 1990s / early 2000s. But methinks you got a tad bit exuberant there when you said ever
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Don't get me wrong Greg Maddux was great, but he didn't pitch in the AL. Pitching in generally much smaller ballparks and having to face a DH night in and night out, doesn't exactly make it apples to apples when comparing stats.
Don't get me wrong Greg Maddux was great, but he didn't pitch in the AL. Pitching in generally much smaller ballparks and having to face a DH night in and night out, doesn't exactly make it apples to apples when comparing stats.
Come on really? That complaint gets old. He would have done the same. There were small ballparks in the NL too. Heck he pitched in Wrigley field.
Seriously?? So you're saying that comparing pitching stats of an AL pitcher and an NL pitcher are the same?
He probably got some small benefit from being in the NL, but not very much. I think he was helped more by an era of a very generous strike zone. Either way, he was a great pitcher and a clear first ballot HOFer.
Oh, I'm not arguing that at all. In fact, I think it's a crime that Maddux wasn't a unanimous HOF'er. My point is, there is a difference between an NL pitcher's stats and an AL pitcher's stats.
The DL allows for a weak hitter / great fielder to play in the AL. So you can "afford" to have a guy around the Mendoza line in the lineup every day. Maybe even below there.
Given Maddux' pitching style, expanding the strike zone and the ground ball out, I don't think his stats would be materially changed. Maddux' real specialty was outthinking the batter.
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Again, I'm not taking anything away from Maddux. In fact, if you take his whole body of work vs. Pedro's, Maddux had the better career, IMO. I just think Pedro's prime years were more dominating than Maddux's .
You provided the over-exuberance of EVER and I provided contrary evidence.
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You left out another thing I wrote, "one could argue". And your "evidence" is contrary, IN YOUR OPINION. I already looked up Pedro's stats in the years in question (1997-2002), and I saw the stats you provided for Maddux, and I can only come to one conclusion: there's no right or wrong answer here. Both pitcher dominated over the years in question. Which one was more dominating is a matter of opinion.
EVER is a big word.
Didn't Koufax rattle off a string of 4 or 5 years as well? And he did it in a 4 man rotation, so he had less rest between starts.
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Didn't Koufax rattle off a string of 4 or 5 years as well? And he did it in a 4 man rotation, so he had less rest between starts.
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