Two subs vs one

I think I read that one, and I liked what I read.

The question I still have is: If you have x dollars to spend on subs, are you better off spending it on 2 mediocre subs or one good one? All too often this stuff is written without regard to price, assuming that the reader has an unlimited budget.

Yes... Okay, seriously I would buy one good over 2 mediocre, because distortion matters too.

I'd say 2 good over 1 very good etc.

In a perfect world, 4 good vs 1 ridiculously priced is where I would go. I have a pair of Velodyne's myself, not optimally positioned.


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I think multiple subs are mostly about uniformity. If you have just one main listening position, then a single well placed sub might be enough. However, if you have several listening positions, multiple subs might help in distributing the sound more evenly.

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The main problem with subwoofers is frequency doubling, especially at 60Hz and above. A good test of your sub for this is to obtain a sinewave sweep generator and sweep the sound from 15Hz up. common troubles usually begin at 50 Hz where as the sweep up occurs most people will begin hearing actual sound at 30 Hz but when the doubling frequency is reached the sound gets not only louder but a new second harmonic pitch is detected. There are many reasons why this happens, including the room shape and size. Really good subwoofers will not double until you get into the upper range of the system, often around 100 Hz. It is better to have large mains that can extend to a lower frequency than the upper range of the sub. Then select a crossover frequency for the sub's upper limit at below the doubling frequency. Generally crossover networks for mains do not address a low cutoff so here you just use a main with the largest low end air movers you can afford. Now back to the subs and how to improve their sound quality.
Lets assume that you do not have a choice in the room size and design but you should consider that the room will have a lower limit to cram the wavelength of a low frequency "sound" into it before the pressure wave hits a reflection wall and gets doubled back on itself causing pressure wave collisions. These often are said to "muddy up" the low end. Adding multiple subs in the room will add to the issue of pressure wave collisions and increase the muddiness or reduce low frequency purity. It has long been the opinion that in smaller rooms, use one sub (location) to avoid this. So what is considered large and small room size with respect to low frequency components. I'm going from memory on this but a theater room 30 ft long by 20 ft wide and 10 ft floor to ceiling will fit the wavelength of 30Hz before pressure wave collision. Add a second sub in a different location and that simple formula goes out the window. There will be collisions all over the room. Some will be additive and some subtractive to the punch of the low end. If the room in double that size you can fit a 20 Hz pressure wave before collisions. double the size again and we allow an even lower frequency. So, soon we approach the size room of a cinema theater. Now a single sub location starts to achieve directionality. Here, location of sub(s) becomes more important and the AES has recommendations for placement to eliminate directionality of the pressure wave for the .1 channel. Note some experimentation for .2 channels where the subs are expected to have directionality but there is very little distribution media cut for a 5.2 or even 5.4. You will find these configurations present in large live stage concerts where the pressure wave from the subs are designed with directivity in mind.

OK, so you want very pure and clean pressure wave in your 20x20x10 Home theater room, what next? a single 12" or 2 x 8" ? The 2 x 8" subs transducers in a single enclosure will have about 400" sq in of air moving surface. a single 12" is 452" so a single 12" would have more push power per watt than twin 8" My sub has 2 x 10" transducers which I built myself from Sony Xplodes with two of them in series for 8 ohms. These have about 630 sq inches of air handling vs the 452sq in of the 12" and 706 sq in. of the single 15". But a single 15" with adequate magnet at 8 ohms cost double the twin 10 in subs. MY design was to maximize performance against cost and the twin 10" did that.

To increase further, the sound performance of the sub, I went with a high power amp. My twin 10" xplodes are driven with a Carver ( relatively low cost) 2000w subwoofer amp. I moved up from a 400 watt amp to a 1000w amp and let me tell you the low end punch and smoothness is equal to some of the finest cinemas around with 2Kw. It isn't loud but a balanced pure low end punch. We had a 12" Veledyne here and my system way out performed the Veledyne as the Veledyne had a 70Hz harmonic we could not eliminate. (in other words, the 35Hz punch produced a phantom 70Hz sound that was not part of the program!) My system cost less than a third of the Veledyne. I was ready to buy that box because it had what mine didn't which was furniture appearance! Imagine my disappointment when it didn't perform as well as my home made box constructed from car audio components.

crossover balance: I said the mains should have the largest low end transducer you can afford and let it extend into the cross point of the sub's upper range. I have two JBL studio monitors which have a 15" woofer 20 lb magnet and have a low range of about 40Hz before fast roll off. These are not drives as sub woofers but simply as woofers and passively connected to the front left and right channel's crossover network.


About base shakers: I have my main seating couch suspended acoustically and the frame fitted with a single Butt Kicker transducer wired to a stereo 2Kw amp that is bridged. Let's just say that thing kicks butt! But after I had my open heart surgery, I had to disable it because of the broken ribs and sternum I was in too much pain to be sitting on a back slapper. The healing took over a year. Funny, I don't miss it as I haven't connected it since before my surgery. When I bought it I tried the base shakers and IMO, don't waste your money. They are a toy compared to the Butt Kicker. But if you can afford it and really want the Rolls Royce of these, get a D-Box system. I still have dreams of owning one of those some day, especially for games. I was saving up for a DBox when 3D came out so I went that direction instead. Some day I'll get a DBox, when the wife isn't looking :)

PS- when I was in my 20's I designed the delay lines for an engineer friend of mine for the Watkins Glen Grateful Dead concert. I know a little bit about subwoofer design.
 
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Thanks, Don. This matches my own thinking, but expressed much better than I could.

Most of us have rooms that fall into the "intimate" catagory. My own is 12'x20' and a single sub fits it well. I have listened across the 4 primary chairs and do not feel peaks. Of course, there may be differences that would be subtle enough to only be detected by measurement, but at that point, I really don't care.
 
There are different types of harmonics even order and odd order. What happens with many sub woofers is a resonance that generates a double of the fundamental frequency. I recall that this only happens as a synergism between the speaker and the resonance of the room and is a simple doubling. eg. sending a 50 hz tone to the speaker and you hear that plus an equally loud tone at 100 Hz. Put the same speaker in an open field and the tone is clean 50 Hz. It's not the speaker, not the room but the combined effect of both. To be clear, the room itself doesn't vibrate at the 100 Hz level but the 2nd harmonic is actually sourced from the speaker. I've heard it referred to as phantom sound, gremlins and similar "supernatural" phrases like that but if you have it it is very difficult to get rid of. Changing the room dimensions or speaker design, you pick which is easier. :)

Room peaks and nulls are phase related issues. I'm pretty sure this double frequency output is not related. But the second harmonic in discussion could exhibit those peaks and nulls as well.
 
Ok, thanks but I still have never heard of such a thing as "frequency doubling". :)

If the 2nd harmonic is sourced from the speaker/sub, especially at the same volume as the original tone I would say you have a bad subwoofer. Sure, play a 50hz tone outside vs in your room and you may see very different responses...but because of the room boundaries.

Your comments about adding more subs adding to the problem of pressure wave collisions goes against everything I have read about the reason to use multiple subs. You use multiple subs at different locations because they have different responses in the room and therefore different modes and nulls. You position the two such that if there is a null with one sub, the second fills it in. Sure if you stack them on top of each other all you get is bigger peaks, hence positioning two subs properly isn't an easy task.
 
There are different types of harmonics even order and odd order.

They aren't different from a physics perspective. They are all mathematically related to the fundamental via the harmonic series. First overtone / 2nd harmonic (1st harmonic is the fundamental) is an octave (frequency doubling, ratio 2:1), 2nd overtone / 3rd harmonic is 3:2, a 5th which is musically discordant. 3rd overtone / 4th harmonic is 4:3 (is a 4th which puts you 2 octaves above the fundamental which is musically pleasing etc.

The harmonic series continues ad infinitum through higher and higher orders.


What happens with many sub woofers is a resonance that generates a double of the fundamental frequency. I recall that this only happens as a synergism between the speaker and the resonance of the room and is a simple doubling. eg. sending a 50 hz tone to the speaker and you hear that plus an equally loud tone at 100 Hz.Put the same speaker in an open field and the tone is clean 50 Hz. It's not the speaker, not the room but the combined effect of both. To be clear, the room itself doesn't vibrate at the 100 Hz level but the 2nd harmonic is actually sourced from the speaker. I've heard it referred to as phantom sound, gremlins and similar "supernatural" phrases like that but if you have it it is very difficult to get rid of.

Where does this energy come from to generate the 100 Hz tone? It has to come from somewhere, so either the driver is operating at 100% harmonic distortion (unlikely) or your recollection isn't accurate.


Room peaks and nulls are phase related issues. I'm pretty sure this double frequency output is not related. But the second harmonic in discussion could exhibit those peaks and nulls as well.

Room peaks and nulls are a function of wavelength (and therefore frequency) vs. room dimensions. You get alteration of the waves due to constructive (peaks) or destructive (nulls) interference. This isn't a binary issue (it's either a peak or a null) it can be intermediate (between peak and null).

BTW, second harmonic is double the fundamental frequency.

In general, only frequencies below 200Hz are of concern for "bass" treatments. I have put "bass" in quotations as 200Hz is not far below middle C on the piano. Middle C is around 256Hz in the modern tuning system. These are the frequencies that tend to be significant in comparison to typical room sizes.

Above 200Hz, it's typically done with diffusion to randomize/scatter the waves rather than absorb them.
 
Your comments about adding more subs adding to the problem of pressure wave collisions goes against everything I have read about the reason to use multiple subs. You use multiple subs at different locations because they have different responses in the room and therefore different modes and nulls. You position the two such that if there is a null with one sub, the second fills it in. Sure if you stack them on top of each other all you get is bigger peaks, hence positioning two subs properly isn't an easy task.

In general rooms are not square or cube shaped, so this is part of the reasoning. The other is careful positioning of the seating vs the room dimensions. With careful seating positioning, you tend to flatten response due to asymmetric distances from the subwoofers, so what is destructive interference for one sub, tends to be constructive for the other(s) and this will give closer to flat response. Here, I'm assuming you are not putting any seats at the rooms midpoint.

If you physically stack subwoofers they behave as one due to the size of the drives vs the wavelengths being reproduced. For perspective, a 100Hz tone has a wavelength of around 3.4 meters / 11 feet. Double that for 50 (22 feet) and double again for 25 (44 feet). This varies slightly based on atmospheric pressure and temperature, but that's negligible by comparison.

According to the paper I cited by Welti, positioning two subs is a relatively simple task. You place them at wall midpoints either front/back or left/right. For four, you use front/back and left/right. Interestingly, the gains beyond 4 subs are minimal by comparison vs 1:2 and 2:4. See above re: not seating at the room midpoint.
 
Yep, agree with everything you said. I guess my main point is the stuff Don was bringing up did not seem to be correct or accurate and I think you hit on most of those things in your other post. Thanks
 
John, perhaps I am misunderstanding, but in the typical 20-30 ft deep room, you would be seeing some 180 degree out of phase null points with a front back setup in the 25-40 Hz range. The single sub would double that distance by reflecting off the back wall so nulls would be at higher frequencies. The issue I would have is that unless a lot of care was taken in room construction like heavy insulation and double wall constuction, most deep bass will pass through the wall and not be reflected. In that case, the second sub may actually increase null points in the room.

What am I missing? Not talking about the acoustic palaces the folks in the AVS dedicated room forum construct, but rather the typical family room conversion we see here.
 
jay:

There will be, but with asymmetric placement of seating, ie not dead center of the room, most of these will be a combination of a destructive and constructive interference which comes closer to an overall flat response. Let's assume a worst case scenario, a wave that's @ 20' vs the 20' length of the room. That means the null is at 10' for both subs, yes? So at the 11' mark (from the front of the room), you have your front sub coming out of the null, and the back sub not quite at the null, yes? Add 'em together and they will not be a null. That's why the seat placement vs. the sub locations are of critical performance.

And yes, you're right, I was thinking of rooms with more attention paid to acoustic considerations than zero. When I read "home theater" I (probably incorrectly) think that at least some level of attention has been paid. Not a great assumption on my part.
 
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Let's be clear here: While I have no problem with any of the theoretical aspects of single vs. multiple subs and John you have an excellent grasp of the theoretical. But I approach this with a basic recognition of the theoretical along with a more important ( IMO) understanding of application in the real world with imperfect components. Components that do not perform 100% as per theoretical physics. This includes the room environment, speakers and the fact they most of us real world people position our listening in different locations as well as listen to complex sound with complex frequencies with many wavelengths. It is not possible for us to configure a room and placement to optimize for all these variables. Compromise and optimize are the key goals. As the components of sound go higher than 100Hz. the manner of room shape and volume become less important and whether the room is live or dead as a range becomes more important, especially to detect directivity for surround. Below 100 Hz the room shape, volume, and even containment structural strength ( so the walls don't vibrate ) becomes more important. With all this in mind, unless the room size is quite large, say cinema theater and larger, My opinion is that multiple subs achieve very little quality improvement. Within a given budget ( again real world case study) it is better to go larger in transducer and higher in power than placing two smaller transducers with smaller amp for the same budget.

All this does not mean that I don't agree with your theoretical physics, rather I feel these theories are often improperly applied by lay people in the real world. e.g. because 2 or 4 sub woofers works great in a movie theater, they won't necessarily work equally great in a home theater room that is typically 20 x 15 x 9 ft volume with 12 person theater seating. My claim is that would be a waste of money and the same could be achieved with a single sub. Physics works great on paper, audio engineering is better for real world design.

The side subject of the veledyne sub putting out a 2nd harmonic in my room was just that a side topic, to point out that a subwoofer needs to be heard in the room and not just in the store showroom. That a subwoofer's sound color is a combination of the room and the sub, not just the sub alone. Hope this clears up my points I didn't state very well before.
 
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I am not saying zero considerations, but I do believe that the typical setup is in a converted existing room. The owner is more concerned with the equipment than the room. He is probably willing to do some paint, move some furniture around and possibly place some acoustic panels on the wall. He is not going to tear the room down to the studs and do major construction.

My own theater is a compromised and converted basement space. Don's is a bedroom conversion. Jason has shown pictures and the space he is discussing is part of a semi-open floorplan with an open archway heading into the rest of the house. These are the spaces we need to address.

I follow the AVS room forums and contribute where I can. I also recognize that the folks in there are the 1% folks who are into construction for its own sake. RTROSE finally got to watch something this week in his theater after 4 1/2 years. Logan isn't there yet. How perfect is a theater that isn't being used?

Scott mentioned a year ago that our HT section was being read pretty heavily. I think we have lost our way since then, and probably need to step back and decide what we want to be. I think it would be a mistake to try and compete head-to-head with AVS, as they have the high end and theoretical slice well covered. I believe our space is helping folks who just bought that better TV and are looking to add a sound system, hang the TV on the wall, get rid of the remote clutter, etc. Basically, our niche is the elementary school, not post-grad.
 
Don,

Nothing I discussed begins to touch on theoretical physics. it's applied physics, generally called engineering.

If you'd like to discuss theoretical physics that's fine, but I am weak on string theory and m theory. Cosmology on the other hand ;)

I understand quite well the ideal (not theoretical) and the practical (what most can do in shared spaces). Even my purpose built room has compromises.

I hadn't actually discussed components, and I am quite cognizant that the room and the device (aka the subwoofer) interact. Positioning of seats abd components within the room is the starting point.




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jay,

why do "we" have to limit ourselves to discussion at any level.

You are right, this isn't avs but just as with any forum there can and should be discussions at multiple levels.

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don,

your assumption about residential vs commercial spaces is actually wrong. The bigger the volume (which means bigger lwd) the less issues you have with low frequency reproduction. this is because your room vs the wavelength being reproduced are closer together.

they both have their challenges but they are generally different challenges.







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