Two subs vs one

[jayn_j]

John, I am not suggesting that we place hard limits on discussions. Sorry that you are getting that out of my posts. A couple of your responses indicate I am annoying you (i.e. "more attention paid to acoustic considerations than zero" and the quotes around "we"). I am just trying to say that there are other factors at work here. One is the room. The second is budget. When does a second sub make sense? Would you add a second $200 sub to a guy who was considering a $1k speaker budget. $400 in subs would be limiting him to low end bookshelves for the other 5 speakers. I also wouldn't upgrade a $1k speaker system by adding a $800 sub to the existing system. I would rather replace the sub there (maybe - depends on system and circumstances).

My comments on our position vs AVS are more along the line that AVS sometimes becomes elitist and drives away the folks who are trying to dip their toes in. A good example is the guy last week who dropped in to ask about whether he could get by with 2" acoustic panels instead of 4" and ended up being carpet bombed by the guys from the acoustic master thread. Nobody ever really helped him out and the poor fellow will never be back.

Jason is not a newbie, and this doesn't apply to him, but I still think that my comments about repurposing rooms and addressing acoustics before adding equipment were still valid. There are times when one needs to step back and decide what will have the best impact. In Jason's case (and my own) a couple of well placed panels and bass traps will likely have a much bigger effect than a second sub.

Also, this is just my opinion. No more, and no less valid than yours. Peace?

 

[TheForce]

your assumption about residential vs commercial spaces is actually wrong. The bigger the volume (which means bigger lwd) the less issues you have with low frequency reproduction. this is because your room vs the wavelength being reproduced are closer together.

John- This discussion is getting strange! Seems you are just being argumentative. I said the larger room sizes example as a cinema can benefit from multiple subs while the smaller the room the less benefit you would get. Did I ever mention how many subwoofers ( W boxes) we used at Watkins Glen outdoor concert? 36 There, the main issue was time delay due to the distance of the same sound coming from different locations.

I also said that I have no interest is discussing theoretical physics, my points are strictly real world engineering. I have no idea what cosmology has to do with this other than mentioning it is being obtuse.

The article you referenced as your basis for your belief that smaller rooms can benefit from multiple subs is theoretical discussion centered on the physics of sub placement.


primetimeguy- I don't know the size or shape of your room or if you made multiple changes at the same time; but, if you found adding another subwoofer, wall treatments, and Audyssey ( I assume you meant their ATS and not their base augmentation system. ATS is cool!) is the best thing done of your system, I am happy for you. In my room, sub-base was improved by improving the size of the speaker area and power of the amp. One of my smaller sub pairs serves my home better in a second listening area, my living room. The other is now in my edit suite.

 

[TheForce]

jay- You get my point perfectly. I might add, been there done that with the dual sub game. The one thing I do that I find many ( especially the elitists at AVS ) don't is admit when I spent too much in a direction and discover it had little affect. I admit I made a blunder in spending! Adding a second sub made the salesman happy but did nothing I could hear for my HT. Decided then and there that I will return to multiple subs when programming is .2. ( I understand I can create a .2 LFE stereo and even .5 if needed but I don't have the budget for that)

Just for fun- I do have 15" woofers in my front left and right speakers. I also have a spare 2KW amp from my unused buttkicker setup. I could just wire that amp in it's stereo config 2 x 1Kw and power the 15" woofers off the left and right channels but I've been worried I'll blow the windows out. LOL! That was a joke. Those speakers do not have adequate throw for a sub woofer transducer anyway. I would probably blow the paper out of the speaker first.

 

[gadgtfreek]

After speaking with Hsu, and laying out the size of my room, Im going to order a 15" sub to couple with my 12" sub in late March/early April. My living room itself is rectangular and around 3500 cuft. The problem is, one end of the rectangle flares to the adjoining dining room, and opposite from it is the kitchen, so I have a lot more room than 3500. I think if I had the 3500cuft room with 4 walls, Id be better off.

So I have this guy:

VTF-2 MK 4 At a Glance
Amp Power (RMS)
1000 W short term, 250 W continuous
Hybrid Tuning
18 Hz Ported, 25 Hz Ported or Sealed
Q Control Range
0.3 - 0.7
Woofer Size
12 Inch


And am going to add this guy for the ".2"

VTF15H
Product At a Glance
Amplifier Power
1400 W short term, 350 W continuous
Hybrid Tuning
16 Hz Ported, 22 Hz Ported or Sealed
Q Control Range
0.3 - 0.7
Woofer
15 Inch


Been real happy with Hsu support, and the 12" VTF2 completely blew away my Klipsch 12". From all the reviews Ive read, the VTF15 is a monster and should add what I want. Hsu said they'd give me detailed instruction on gain matching, and my Maranatz AVR is ".2" ready with two identical outs, so that makes it easy as well.

 

[John Kotches]

Don,

I stand by my point that the acoustic challenges in the small interior space (for arguments sake we'll call it less than 10,000 ft^3) are different than the challenges in a large interior space (greater than 10,000 ft^3) which are also completely different than the challenges for sound reinforcement in an outdoor venue which you brought up.

From an acoustical standpoint, placement is important both for seats and subs. I don't doubt that you can get better performance by optimally placing 1 subwoofer instead of poorly placing 2 subwoofers. I've both read the research and confirmed it for myself with a very simple measurement tool, an SPL meter. But two subwoofers will give you better performance than one with a much simpler implementation scheme.

Does that mean always buy 2? Of course not. But at some point $X (what point X is is up to the person) 2 is better than one because the differences between one at $X is only marginally (if any) better than 2 at 1/2x.

 

[John Kotches]

Jay:

My point earlier was poorly made, when you said "we" weren't AVS I read it as limiting discussion which wasn't your intent. My point was we can have both levels of discussion. In fact, having both can improve both the novice and the enthusiast. Often, breaking my understanding down improves my understanding.

I agree with you on subs / room and I think you missed my point when I said there were times when I'd buy one over two. One of the nice things about acoustic treatments is that if you have a little DIY skill it goes a long way towards making panels and bass traps. The materials aren't prohibitively expensive and the benefits are big.

I've done a crappy looking, good sounding room (my first HT in Chicago), a room with add-on acoustic treatments (my second room) great sounding, and a room designed and built by Dennis Erskine. Each was an improvement, unfortunately so was the cost.

Sorry if I seem argumentative, that's not my intent.

 

[John Kotches]

Jason:

Hsu makes good subwoofers at good pricing for the performance. They aren't high on furniture grade cabinetry which saves you a bit on the $$$. I'd rather the money went into the other stuff anyway ;-)

Let us know how it works out and assuming your AVR has Audyssey try toggling it on and off so that you can hear the differences between them.

Regards,

 

[Ilya]

Jason: why would you go with two different subs?!
It will be a challenge to do sound equalization for multiple listening positions. I believe it's usually better to use a pair of identical subs.

Sent from my iPhone using SatelliteGuys

 

[gadgtfreek]

Ilya, it is a good idea, but not required. I was gonna stick with two VTF2's, but after speaking with them the 15" is a better idea. They said they will give detailed instruction on how to set both up, starting with them in the same spot. Im sure its gonna be a bit of work, but Im not worried about the sound afterwards.

 

[gadgtfreek]

After talking more with Hsu, I think Im gonna order the VTF15H in late April, and then just Craigslist the VTF2 MK4. WAF shoots down two, and I think the VTF15H gives me enough horsepower. Unless someone can think of a better sub for $1000.

 

[John Kotches]

Jason:

Hsu has always delivered quality bass at reasonable prices. Pre-Congrats on your forthcoming purchase!

 

[gadgtfreek]

Thanks!

I probably should have gotten the big boy first, instead of the 12", but I did not take into the account my living room joins with a kitchen and dining room, and there is a lot more volume than just one room. The 12" does a great job, I just want a little more.

 

[jayn_j]

Jason, have you talked to Hsu? It is fairly common for companies to accept trade ups during the initial few weeks. You will lose money going through craigslist.

 

[John Kotches]

What about trading in the wife and keeping the 2 subwoofers is that an option?

I kid, I kid!

 

[jayn_j]

Oh John, you silly man.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I wonder what I could get for her on craigslist?

 

[riffjim4069]

Yep, a lot depends on your setup. I use a single Klipsch-12 and it's more than adequate to rumble the 14x16' room. Of course, I have Klipsch KLF-20s (mains), KLF-10s (rears), KLF-C7 (center) and JBL front effects speakers - the KLF's are very large and do a credible job without a subwoofer, but not everyone has room for 700lbs. of speakers. I've considered adding a rear subwoofer since picking up my lastest Yamaha receiver, but why mess with something that's not broken.