TIVO vs E*

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Nice summary of the issues posted here. I didn't like the part about a ruling "could take months to come" since it seems like the judge should have all the informaiton he needs by now.

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Digital video recorder maker TiVo Inc (TIVO.O) and EchoStar Corp (SATS.O) return to a Texas court on Tuesday in the latest round of a longstanding fight over a television recording technology patent....

...Arguments are expected to take place Tuesday and Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Texarkana, Texas, before Judge David Folsom. He will consider whether TiVo can prove EchoStar's new DVR software further infringed on TiVo's patent, and therefore owes TiVo more damages.

Analyst Spencer Wang of Credit Suisse said that a ruling in TiVo's favor, which could take months to come, could be rough for Dish, since the work-around software is deployed on the vast majority of its millions of DVRs....

Full Article

Old news, should look for the report after the first day hearing.

The judge was quoted as saying he would not rule on the infringement soon and he might need another hearing to make that decision, and he did not give a time frame for that next hearing.
 
The recent release of the Moxi HD DVR, announcement of the EchoStar T2000S digital cable ready tru2way HD DVR, and press release of Motorola's new tru2way HD DVR, Tivo may have a tough time earning a profit in an already tough market. We shall see...
 
The recent release of the Moxi HD DVR, announcement of the EchoStar T2000S digital cable ready tru2way HD DVR, and press release of Motorola's new tru2way HD DVR, Tivo may have a tough time earning a profit in an already tough market. We shall see...

Once the trial is over, the money will be rolling into TiVo in baskets.
 
I tried to update this thread but not able to, so decided to open a new thread.

A most recent ruling on 3/31/09 by the DE court dismssed TiVo's motion to dismiss the E*'s new lawsuit against TiVo, and in that ruling the DE judge rebutted every one of TiVo's arguments:

1) Based on E*'s new design evidence, the judge told TiVo no, he could not agree with TiVo that the difference was only colorable, but TiVo should have the opportunity for a full discovery and try to prove E*'s evidence was false or not accurate. Now we have the full discovery and E*'s new design evidence still stands, we'll find out how successful TiVo did to prove the evidence is false or inaccurate.

2) The DE judge told TiVo, no, E*'s new lawsuit is not "forum shopping."

3) The DE judge also told TiVo, E*'s design around effort should be encouraged by the court, therefore he could not agree it had a "chilling effect" on TiVo's business, as TiVo argued.

This 3rd opinion has some implication in future proceedings, for example, if, and only if E* is found in contempt, meaning E*'s design around is found unsuccessful, TiVo will not be able to argue that E* did so in bad faith, or was trying to fool the court, or trying to "chill" TiVo's business, because another judge had said E*'s such design around effort should be encouraged. Of course if the first attempt is encouraged, E* can argue they should be encouraged if they try again:)

Now keep in mind that the above assumed E*'s design around failed, but in my opinion they had clearly succeeded.

Here is the latest TiVo's net income finincial filing:

31-Jan-0931-Oct-0831-Jul-0830-Apr-08
($3,567)$100,580 $2,942 $3,637

Notice the downward trend, and the $100M they got from E*, after a two-year delay. It sure appears that money from E* may be the only future for TiVo. Let's wait and see how bright this future will be for TiVo.
 
Once the trial is over, the money will be rolling into TiVo in baskets.
I don't think so, but it would appear this is the "one solution" that would keep Tivo in business beyond the next 5-years. All rhetoric aside, we really like our TivoHD box now that we've dumped Dish Network in favor of the superior quality and value of FiOS. It's our 2nd favorite HD DVR behind the EchoStar ViP622/722 series. While I am not a big fan of the subscription fees, the price for Tivo service is comarible to Verizon's less-than-stellar Motorola DVR. To be honest, I would love to see other viable competitors in the direct-to-consumer DVR market. However, as Tivo has demonstrated, the profit margins are already razor thin so how will consumers benefit, and have more choices, when vendors cannot make money? I used to think that Tivo was "blocking the market" with their borderline DVR technology patents, however I am beginning to think there is still little "profit motivation" for vendors like EchoStar, Moxi, etc. in the direct consumer market. Unfortunately, these vendors probably need to stike deals with MSOs in order to be profitable.

Additionally, while tru2way sounds pretty good on the surface, to me it appears to be a method and means for extracting $$$ for customers...just like ringtones and applets on your mobile phone. You want CallerID? Sure! It will cost you $1 per month. You want to run the advanced search feature? Sure! The applet will cost you an additional $1 per month. You want the deluxe guide with original air date...actors...ratings? Sure! The advanced guide will cost you an additional $2.95 each month. You want to run weather and traffic widgets? Sure! Each one will run you another $1 per month. You cant to use that eSata port? Sure! That app will cost you $29.95. What about the Netflix, PhotoBucket, YouTube, Web Browser, etc.? Ca Ching!

Sorry to digress! I certainly welcome addition choices choices in the post Tivo vs. EchoStar case...but I just don't see "less costly" alternatives coming in the near future.
 
TiVo faces a unique issue not present for all other major DVR providers, TiVo is not a content carrier, though TiVo has been trying to get into this area for example working with NetFlix.

But TiVo may not overcome this problem of not being a content carrier. They should have gone that route a long time ago. Now their only hope is to force the others to license their patents.

If they lose this case, no one will feel compelled to use their DVRs.
 
I didn't and honestly hope they don't, but if Tivo does happen to fail, the reasons will more than likely go beyond the courtcase, that's for sure.

Of course there will be other reasons, but if TiVo fails to shut off E*'s DVRs, even if they manage to collect some more money from E*, it will be THE reason for their eventual failure, that is if in the end they do fail.

There are reasons for TiVo not to fail as a company, even if they lose this case. Few reasons but they are out there.
 
Of course there will be other reasons, but if TiVo fails to shut off E*'s DVRs, even if they manage to collect some more money from E*, it will be THE reason for their eventual failure, that is if in the end they do fail.

There are reasons for TiVo not to fail as a company, even if they lose this case. Few reasons but they are out there.

If Tivo fails for any reason, it will be because of lack of innovation, and their poor decision not to build a better mousetrap, but just rest on their laurels and claim they invented it...

Lets face it, the value of an innovation gets decided in the market, not the courtroom. And that will be why Tivo fails if they fail. Laziness will be the downfall win or lose...

Besides, this whole consumer terrorism bit on the part of Tivo in their attempt to shut down the competitions DVRs. Lets take a realistic look at this, Its not a good idea to attempt to succeed by threatening the very consumer constituency you are attempting to woo as customers.

I don't know, man...we get a lot of bravado around here from the Tivo fanboys and E* haters alike every time this thread comes back to life, but regardless of peoples opinions, loyalties, obsessions, or product patronage...there is one fact that nobody can deny, that being:

If Tivo really held all the cards here, as many would like to believe, this whole dang courtroom circus would have been over by now. Period...yet here is with no end in site. Its anyones ballgame, and as far as Tivo is concerned, they better think this through. At this point its not about survival by winning the game, its whether or not they can survive playing it...
 
The problem is it seems that this saga won't end soon enough for Tivo. Hence, no Tivo to receive this big $$$.

No true, TiVo just received a big $100M pay check in 10/08, though they should have received it about 2 years ago, it was delayed because E* continued to appeal.

If E* fails this time, while E* can still appeal, therefore may still delay the process, if they ultimately fails on appeal like last time, another big pay check can go TiVo's way, though it can be delayed again if E* appeals all the way. But the mere threat of a big pay check is enough for TiVo to live on.

But it will not happen this time. At this point, especially consider the DE judge's opinions, it is nearly impossible for TiVo to prove E* is in contempt. TiVo carries very heavy burden of proof this time, E* has done more than enough to establish the doubt.
 
If Tivo fails for any reason, it will be because of lack of innovation, and their poor decision not to build a better mousetrap, but just rest on their laurels and claim they invented it...

...If Tivo really held all the cards here, as many would like to believe, this whole dang courtroom circus would have been over by now. Period...yet here is with no end in site. Its anyones ballgame, and as far as Tivo is concerned, they better think this through. At this point its not about survival by winning the game, its whether or not they can survive playing it...

If you noticed your above statement is pretty much saying if TiVo loses this court fight...Therefore you are saying TiVo could be in big trouble if they loses this fight.

As far as whether TiVo has focued on continued innovation, that is a matter of opinion. I agree with you this long court fight most certainly had diverted their attention and resources from innovation, but one can argue that TiVo did not stop innovation. Their DVRs had advanced like anyone else', and TiVo's DVRs are still some of the best on the market today, though I believe E*'s DVRs are at least equal, if not better. And D*'s DVRs are not that far behind. Those Motorala DVRs for the cable companies are much less impressive.

But TiVo had no choice, as I said earlier, TiVo's mistake was they did not try to become a content carrier only until very recently, and it may be too late. Without sufficient content, TiVo must rely on licensing their patents to the others. They can have the very best DVR, it does no good if no content providers such as E*, D* and cable want to license their technologies. Once the analog OTA signals are totally shut off, more TiVo's old DVRs will be doorstops, even though they actaully have some of the most advanced features such as free MRV copying and transfer. There will be no signals for them to work.

And most importantly, TiVo picked a wrong guy to fight this battle. Charlie is one of those very few who would fight any fight to the bitter end and can also afford to fight the fight.
 
And most importantly, TiVo picked a wrong guy to fight this battle. Charlie is one of those very few who would fight any fight to the bitter end and can also afford to fight the fight.

This was their biggest mistake. Of all the companies to sue to start with Echostar was the wrong company. Others would have just settled to end the hassels. I could see Echostar managing to drag this out another 5 years. The patents will expire before Echostar gives up.
 
If you noticed your above statement is pretty much saying if TiVo loses this court fight...Therefore you are saying TiVo could be in big trouble if they loses this fight.

Not really...I'm not saying anything directly about the fight at all...

I'm saying that Tivo made a mistake to attempt to build their entire business model on what appears to be a weak and obviously arguable patent.

Basically, they are attempting to build a castle on the sand. And as much fun as it is for the Tivo faithful to vilify E* throughout all this, we shouldn't just limit the scope of Tivo's problems to just E* here.

The patent is obviously contestable at some level. We shouldn't assume that there won't be anyone else other than E* who try and contest it. They have a potentially on-going issue here...
 
This was their biggest mistake. Of all the companies to sue to start with Echostar was the wrong company. Others would have just settled to end the hassels. I could see Echostar managing to drag this out another 5 years. The patents will expire before Echostar gives up.

So could I!
 
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