SkyAngel Plans Move to IPTV

[mattb]

I can't speak for SA but I would suspect why things are being handled the way they are is SA has come to the realize that their in trouble and their trying to get out of the hole they have fell into the best way possible even if its an ugly climb out.

Mr Johnson passing on, the fact they didnt get enough subs as they likely wanted and never getting their own bird up ontop of the issues E* had with E3 and the transponder issue I suspect all of it came crashing down upon them and now their tryin to save their sinking ship in any way they can.

Deep inside, I really doubt anyone at SA wants things to go how their going but I don't really know if truely they will be able to come up with a great solution to the hole they are in. No matter how they handle things at this point someone is going to get hurt, I admit as a life timer if they do not offer me a respectful deal on IPTV i will likely go else where for Christian programming, do i really want to do that, no but its just a fact of life.

 

[andrews777]

I would agree with that. I continue to be amazed (though I shouldn't be) at the hostility exhibited here. The modern Pharasiacal spirit is alive today....

We may be upset, but we should rely a lot more on God's hand than on our own indignation, righteous or just claimed to be such.

Brad

 

[ShaneLinder]

I wish SA the best. I believe they failed due to bad business decisions and I am guilty of making a few of those myself. However, I do believe it immoral for them to continue to advertise the DBS service. I had an additional dish installed for DISH Family this week and the tech installing it was taken by surprise when I told him about SA. He said he just recently saw a big marketing push by them.

 

[sansha]

I would agree with that. I continue to be amazed (though I shouldn't be) at the hostility exhibited here. The modern Pharasiacal spirit is alive today....

We may be upset, but we should rely a lot more on God's hand than on our own indignation, righteous or just claimed to be such.

Brad

Why is it that whenever these threads pop up regarding dissatisfaction with Sky Angel, someone turns around and criticizes the customers for being unChristian? Without making, by the way, any other substantive contribution to the discussion. That kind of manipulative doublespeak, supposedly in the name of Christ, gives so-called Christians a bad name. If you are going to claim to be a Christian, or a Christian company, then at the very least, be honest, fair and forthright in your dealings.

In that regard, Sky Angel apparently needs more lessons in the true spirit of Christianity than its customers.

 

[NYRman1975]

Why is it that whenever these threads pop up regarding dissatisfaction with Sky Angel, someone turns around and criticizes the customers for being unChristian? Without making, by the way, any other substantive contribution to the discussion. That kind of manipulative doublespeak, supposedly in the name of Christ, gives so-called Christians a bad name. If you are going to claim to be a Christian, or a Christian company, then at the very least, be honest, fair and forthright in your dealings.

In that regard, Sky Angel apparently needs more lessons in the true spirit of Christianity than its customers.

Amen! A wrong is a wrong to both parties.

But this seems to be disintegrating into a bad argument and that is not what Satellite guys is all about, so I will kindly keep my opinions and feelings about Skyangel's practices to myself from here on out, out of respect for the moderators and owners of this fantastic forums.

God bless ALL!

 

[andrews777]

Why is it that whenever these threads pop up regarding dissatisfaction with Sky Angel, someone turns around and criticizes the customers for being unChristian? Without making, by the way, any other substantive contribution to the discussion. That kind of manipulative doublespeak, supposedly in the name of Christ, gives so-called Christians a bad name. If you are going to claim to be a Christian, or a Christian company, then at the very least, be honest, fair and forthright in your dealings.

In that regard, Sky Angel apparently needs more lessons in the true spirit of Christianity than its customers.

I never said that SkyAngel doesn't have plenty to work on. My father paid a lot more for my lifetime membership than most people here, since it was long before they were live.

I post my comments because of the vitriol against SkyAngel in specific posts, something that comes up regularly. Calling them names is not the proper response. Or do their wrong actions and choices justify anything on the part of others?

Brad

 

[ShaneLinder]

A lot of the anger against Sky Angel is due to people just not understanding how businesses work. However, that said, it seems that SA didn't really understand how business should work either.

In the public perception, Sky Angel is Christian. I will not join in a class action if there is one. It is better to suffer a wrong than bring shame onto the church, which is what Christians suing other Christians does.

 

[andrews777]

A lot of the anger against Sky Angel is due to people just not understanding how businesses work. However, that said, it seems that SA didn't really understand how business should work either.

In the public perception, Sky Angel is Christian. I will not join in a class action if there is one. It is better to suffer a wrong than bring shame onto the church, which is what Christians suing other Christians does.

I agree with both your initial points. While we shouldn't be overjoyed, this is a quite logical outcome and we should not take it as personal. Anytime you offer "lifetime" anything, you need to figure out how they will keep paying in the long run. Few such "deals" work out.

Brad

 

[catkoko]

Business NOT Christian

I don't think a business can be "Christian". They may have a "Christian market" or audience. Once you cross from a ministry to "business" it is difficult to maintain true Christian values. I think sky angel is unfortunate proof of that. They no longer even have a ministry as they have alienated many viewers in the last year! first many monthly viewers did NOT want HGTV< FOX< HALMARK but were given no choice. then they raised the price twice. Lifetimers are obviously not getting a fair shake and now add IPTV to the mix and you have a whole new group to be angry!

Sky Angel advertised the LIFETIME MEMBERSHIPS as just that for YOUR lifetime, never pay again, passes to your spouse yadayadayada........ by twisting things to say LIFE of SATELITE (just how long does a satellite LIVE?) you are buying into their lives! Also disregarding the fact that they clearlay stated tehy would LAUNCH their OWN SATELLITE. therefore even if echostar did DIE a new one would have been in place to take its place!!!!!!

 

[Mr Tony]

Sky Angel advertised the LIFETIME MEMBERSHIPS as just that for YOUR lifetime, never pay again, passes to your spouse yadayadayada........ by twisting things to say LIFE of SATELITE (just how long does a satellite LIVE?)

depends on the satellite but most are around 10-15 years tops and that is with no failures or issues. Since Echo III is crippled, that number drops

Also disregarding the fact that they clearlay stated tehy would LAUNCH their OWN SATELLITE.

but they didn't so that point is moot. They never had a satellite built so they couldn't launch it or get it going. Plus I think they realized that the little "Dish agreement" they had worked fine. Think about it

Lets say they did launch that satellite. That means they get their 8 transponders (2 they use + the 6 Dish "rents" from them). Dish could have said "well there goes the agreement we had. Nice knowing ya" and cut off all subs. The SA would have to reactivate them. Plus since its Dish equipment, Dish could say they don't want to work with them anymore and then SA would have to create its own software for SA. That is what Bell ExpressVu in Canada does. they use DIsh boxes and have their own software loaded into it. And you couldnt do the seamless Dish-SA thing that some people do now.

So that little "how come a satellite wasnt built" is a lot more than meets the eye

 

[greggor48]

Plus Hackers in USA and Canada can take a big bite out of SA cake if they had their own satellite and use their own Nagravigion software.

 

[catkoko]

Would have, could have, should have? Bottom line is they didn't say MAYBE we will launch the Satellite, they said they would even specified a YEAR! Problem is no one held them accountable when 2002 passed with no new satellite!! As long as we had service no one was going to hold SA to their word.

I know its disappointing to lose faith in someone or something. Trying to find reasons or sugar coat what sky angel has done isn't helping anyone, least of all SA! It would have been just as wrong but a bit more honest if they just said "we changed our mind" rather than play word games over whose lifetime they agreed to. I don't think JR, nancy or anyone else is now fullfilling Bob Srs wishes, or vision for this ministry. They even changed his all the 'statements" to agree with the new path they have chosen.

I know some will disagree but truly believe they have given satan a foothold in what could have been a great ministry. How can this now be for the Glory of God when they are REMOVING his word from homes? There will be many who will no longer have Christian Tv due to the choice SA made to switch to IPTV. High Speed DSL is not an option for all areas including Sky Angels rural viewing audience.

[SIZE=-1]Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. ...[/SIZE]

 

[sansha]

A lot of the anger against Sky Angel is due to people just not understanding how businesses work. However, that said, it seems that SA didn't really understand how business should work either.

In the public perception, Sky Angel is Christian. I will not join in a class action if there is one. It is better to suffer a wrong than bring shame onto the church, which is what Christians suing other Christians does.

I think it's better if the religious community holds all companies to an equal standard, and speak with a loud but fair voice when there is a problem. Sweeping it under the rug, tolerating dubious business practices because the company is supposedly Christian, does a lot more harm to honest religious businesses.

It's one thing for Sky Angel to have made mistakes. But it's quite another for them to fund their new endevours by cheating their existing customers, which it feels like they are doing. Selling the licences needed to do business, and then cutting off the subscribers who paid for those licenses, and using the funds for something else, whether for IPTV or their new production company with its "Fortune 500" staff, is not ethical. As long as the satellite is still functioning (and it must be working well enough for Dish to seek the licenses) then Sky Angel has obligations to its current prepaid customers. That they could send out a press announcement trumpeting this new production company, and brag about their Fortune 500 connections, while keeping their prepaid customers in the dark on losing their service (if that is to happen), to me is very very questionable.

The longer Sky Angel is silent on these points, the worse they look. In fairness to other Christian businesses, if there is a class action, people ought to join it. Not because they'll get anything. Only the lawyers make money on that nonsense. But to make it clear what's acceptible.

Forgiveness is a great thing, when the trangressor seeks it. To give it when the transgressor is in the act and apparently has no remorse is akin to being complicit. That they are blithely selling the means to deliver their services and telling their clients they're going to be cut off doesn't sound honest to me.

 

[timfouts]

I usually don't, but I've been monitoring this thread for the last month since I received my letter in May regarding the secular channel subscription. I don't need the channels because I already have them, but I still receive them without a paid fee. The reason is below.

I dug out a SkyAngel letter dated October 31, 1997 from Robert Johnson SR, stating that in November 1997 I would need to re-position my dish from 119 WL to the new 61.5 WL as all channels and programing would be moving to a new satellite. If I remember correctly, I had programming of four channels before the move and the Worship network was an original. It transferred from analog C-band to DVB C-band.

The point is this, I've had SkyAngel since December 1996 and I have paid a grand total of $295 which was the lifelong sub fee in the beginning. $295 is a nominal investment which as of this month works out to be $2.34 per month for the past 10 1/2 years.

The subscriber provisions amended on April 15, 1999 supercedes the original provisions whereas specifically adding and clarifying what lifelong means. Specifically, "for those who purchased the lifelong subscription it will last for the operating lifetime of the Dominion Sky Angel domestic U.S. DBS service and the lifetime of the subscriber and his or her spouse without any further monthly subscription fees and includes a minimum of 32 television and radio channels selected at Dominion's sole discretion."

It also said Echostar III and the transponders that Dominion leased from Echostar (parent company of Dish network) has a projected life of 12 to 14 years. Here's the problem. They planned to launch their own satellite in approximately 2002 because in 1999 they contracted to construct a backup dss satellite in the unlikely event of a total Echostar III failure. It was also planned to move all Dominion licensed frequencies to a Dominion owned and controlled satellite when Echostar III ended its useful life. Obviously the backup satellite did not happen and it costs even more now.

They have no place to go and need to look at a different transmission vehicle. It seems they think they have found it in IPTV.

I won't go to IPTV because I have a dish farm and the only SkyAngel channel I watch is Worship network. It is easier to get it via SkyAngel/Dish than DVB C-band even though the signal is compressed and not as clear as the original feed on C-band.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[ShaneLinder]

I am not saying that lifetime subscribers will not have a case against SA if there is a class action suit. We were told our memberships were for "the operating lifetime of the Dominion Sky Angel domestic U.S. DBS service" and led to believe that SA was going to launch their own satellite in the future. Unless SA goes bankrupt, I would think they have some kind of obligation to those lifetime subscribers.

When the Catholic church had priests molesting children and refused to do anything to stop it, members of the church had to take a stand and do something. I understand and agree with that. If something wasn't done, more children would have been harmed.

However in the case of SA we are not talking about such a grievous matter. All we stand to lose is some Christian TV channels, many of which we can get for free on a Glorystar system. So I say suffer the wrong and let vengeance belong to the Lord.

 

[andrews777]

Dish, DirectTV and the cable companies get away with things all the time, so "holding SkyAngel to the same standard" isn't all that meaningful.

I do think SkyAngel should have been above the others, but I also think everyone (almost including me) that bought into the idea that you could pay once for something that had ongoing costs were a bit naive. (I got mine because my father was the "naive" one.)

You cannot build a business on a pay once and we have expenses forever model. It will ultimately fail no matter who you are.

You may get away with it if you are an alumni association or such (like my alma mater), but that is only because you have large donations regularly coming in and the lifetime subs are a small part of the total membership and total receipts.

Christian or not, you always need to ask "show me the money" to figure out if something is really viable. Where will the money come from? If it won't, the business is doomed, no matter how honorable. They may be stupid, honorable or something else, but they cannot continue on without income.

Brad

 

[sansha]

Dish, DirectTV and the cable companies get away with things all the time, so "holding SkyAngel to the same standard" isn't all that meaningful.

I do think SkyAngel should have been above the others, but I also think everyone (almost including me) that bought into the idea that you could pay once for something that had ongoing costs were a bit naive. (I got mine because my father was the "naive" one.)

You cannot build a business on a pay once and we have expenses forever model. It will ultimately fail no matter who you are.

You may get away with it if you are an alumni association or such (like my alma mater), but that is only because you have large donations regularly coming in and the lifetime subs are a small part of the total membership and total receipts.

Christian or not, you always need to ask "show me the money" to figure out if something is really viable. Where will the money come from? If it won't, the business is doomed, no matter how honorable. They may be stupid, honorable or something else, but they cannot continue on without income.

Brad

I wasn't naive, and gave Sky angel pretty much 50/50 chances. Though I am a bit surprised they failed to make a go of it. Seems to me with the huge audience in this country, they should have managed better.

Since they hadn't, I rather expected Sky Angel to fade away once the satellite died, since they never launched their own, and seemed to be burning their bridges with e*. What I find reprehensible is that they apparently are selling the licenses and abandoning their obligations before the sat has failed. This would be bad enough if they kept the prepaid subscribers up on IPTV -- because the whole point of having SA for me is that it is on the same equipment as my Dish system. But worse, they seem to have no interest in trying to keep their existing subscribers at all. I venture quite a few would have bought set top boxes to stay with IPTV while the satellite was still up there, if SA was honorable enough to keep the service going on IPTV for prepaid subbers for the life of the satellite as they should, even after the switch to IPTV. After all, the DBS system would still be working if SA hadn't sold it.. Then SA would make perhaps 1/2 profit on the sale of all those set top boxes for people who probably grudgingly decided to convert. Then after the sat does die, and SA cut off their IPTV subs, probably quite a few would even pay a nominal monthly fee, simply because they've been another year or two on IPTV, gotten used to it, and decide it is worth keeping even under a fee service.

But if SA cuts their prepaid subscribers loose immediately, then I expect most of them will simply drop SA altogether and go to Glorystar. Which I suspect is what SA wants anyway. I think SA has stars in their eyes on making it on their new production company. They don't want the drudgery of maintaining subscription tv services. they don't care about keeping their subscribers. Truth to be told they don't seem to believe in their own (existing) product. And there's more glamour in production. I suspect they are having a last boost of expenditures before they go under and want to have some fun producing and are using the license sale as their last asset. Perhaps someone wants to make a name for himself and is using the license sale to fund some glossy productions.

So it isn't being naive, and it isn't that I really much care about SA. It's just rather ridiculous that this supposedly Christian organization is being so hypocritical. The fact that they haven't even had the courtesy to *tell* their subscribers they are selling or seeking to transfer the transponder licenses, people who paid their bills while they got started, to me is disgusting. SA *wasn't* supposed to live the rest of their lives on the original lifetime subscribers. I think very few people were naive enough to expect that. They were supposed to use that initial cash boost for start up costs and *then* hustle to get regular monthly paying customers. Keeping those prepaid subscribers current on a DBS system should not have cost them much (once they are turned on it's just a matter of minor bookkeeping to keep addresses and receiver numbers current). SA's bills were supposed to be paid by monthly customers. Sky Angel just never did the right marketing to get them. Why they think they can get them now with IPTV is beyond me, particularly if their brush off their existing customer base.

 

[catkoko]

Pay once business model

Sky angel never intended to have a pay once business model. If they did they would have CONTINUOUSLY offered LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP! Instead they offered it periodically at varied prices as well. this was done at times when they needed to raise quick cash!

They also offered 10 year memberships which still have several YEARS left before they expire! those members will definitely lose as even if SA does "prorate the membership" they use sky angel fuzzy math, charge full price per month and it ends up "oooopps sorry we don't owe you anything" even though they have 2 years due them. The right, nice, honest thing to do would be to figure # months LEFT on the subscription multiplied by $14.99 and refund the 10 year people! Now thos people may not have subscribed if they were going to pay full price as the 10 yr price averaged out to aprox $6 a month depending on what they paid!

 

[andrews777]

Sky angel never intended to have a pay once business model. If they did they would have CONTINUOUSLY offered LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP! Instead they offered it periodically at varied prices as well. this was done at times when they needed to raise quick cash!

And that was their biggest flaw. You cannot sustain a business (in any area) where most of the customers are not actively inputing ongoing resources.

They may have used it "strategically", but doing so doomed them. They could have done nothing to avoid this situation. Does anyone have any evidence otherwise?

Brad

 

[catkoko]

avoided

First of all this could have/should have been avoided. Second of all it is NOT the fault of the lifetime members so why single us out for punishment? 3rd of all sky angel has been buying property, building etc as well as expanding their market into Canada. they aren't as bad off as some would lead us to believe. 4th, Why add the secualr channels if you are going to lose $? They could have charged more for them, made them an add on package for monthly viewers etc

I think the "evidence" shows that this was avoidable given proper planning and management!

Then there is just the issue of the secretiveness, lack of info and falsehoods they keep spouting. WHY is everything such a secret? For example just how many subscribers does Sky Angel have? How many are lifetime? 10 yr? High #? Low #? Are they gaining or losing subscribers? you have to wonder why SA won't disclose those figures......

to say we shouldn't do anything as they may go out of business is ludicrous! if walmart, target etc was ripping people off with overcharges, false advertising etc should people keep their mouths shut ? Of course not. if SA wants to act like a business instead of a ministry they have to live with ALL the consequences same as any other BUSINESS!!!