Roger Comes clean

[salsadancer7]

Look into McNamee's background and tell me that he's a credible witness.

Most pitchers are out by 37 or 38.
Well let's take a look at that statement;
Curt Schilling 41, The Babe 40, Jack Morris was 41 and Nolan Ryan all righties pitched over 40. So if you're theory is correct they are roid users also? Heck Nolan threw practice pitches over 100mph into 40s.
He retired at 46 and Clemens is 45.

And look at all the FBI informants and local police informants more than likely would put McNamee's record to shame. And as far as the pitchers you listed, your sample size is 4??!! And WHAT "Babe" are you referring to? And were ANY OF those pitchers as effect as Clemens? And Ryan was just a freak of nature....someone like that, with that arm strength, comes once or twice every 50 years....Sorry, you have proved nothing but strengthen the case for me that those guys are freak jobs/flukes of nature.

 

[Bijou Media]

And look at all the FBI informants and local police informants more than likely would put McNamee's record to shame. And as far as the pitchers you listed, your sample size is 4??!! And WHAT "Babe" are you referring to? And were ANY OF those pitchers as effect as Clemens? And Ryan was just a freak of nature....someone like that, with that arm strength, comes once or twice every 50 years....Sorry, you have proved nothing but strengthen the case for me that those guys are freak jobs/flukes of nature.

And look at all the FBI informants and local police informants more than likely would put McNamee's record to shame.
Probably, but if you can corroborate their statements, then you can prove they are true. What is your point? My point is I don't believe NcNamee's statements on face value, get me some direct evidence, or another witness then his story can be believable.

And as far as the pitchers you listed, your sample size is 4??!!
There's more, I haven't even got to hitters yet. BTW I had more on my list than you did.

And WHAT "Babe" are you referring to?
DUH! Babe Ruth! Not only was the Babe one of the greatest all-time hitters, but he was a pitcher also. Allow me to educate you. Babe was also a pretty good pitcher as well his career W/L record was 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA. In his last season with the Red Sox he started playing outfield and continued as he played for the Yankees till the end of his career. Babe played his last year in 1940 for the Boston Braves in 1935 at the age of 40 though his average that year fell below .200.

And were ANY OF those pitchers as effect as Clemens?
Yeah, Ryan, but you answered your own question in the next sentence. Have any of the pitchers you listed pitched to the effect of Clemens? I guess Kenny Rodgers was a fluke in 2006. Oh yeah he didn't fail any drug tests. I guess a 40 year old pitcher can have a good season after all.

And Ryan was just a freak of nature....someone like that, with that arm strength, comes once or twice every 50 years....Sorry, you have proved nothing but strengthen the case for me that those guys are freak jobs/flukes of nature.
You were the one that brought that up. You are saying that because these guys played into their 40's it's rare, which is true, but not impossible. Besides Clemens was accused of taking Steroids back in 2000 and 2001 when he was in his late 30's. If we apply your theory then the steroids must still be effecting him now. Clemens has not failed any drug tests since MLB implemented them.

Another argument is since there were 100s of other guys on steroids before testing, then why have none of them put up the same numbers as Clemens?

None of this makes Clemens innocent, but my argument is simple, many have rushed to judge him on some seriously weak evidence, evidence that would never hold up in a court of law (or shouldn't anyway). I can't chastise a guy on what they have.

Salsadancer, your argument is ridiculous and holds absolutely no water. There are few 40 year olds in any major sports and phenomenal players like Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Rodger Federer and more don't come along very often. They are as you say freaks of nature, but does that mean they are on Steroids? No, they are just talented.

 

[salsadancer7]

And look at all the FBI informants and local police informants more than likely would put McNamee's record to shame.
Probably, but if you can corroborate their statements, then you can prove they are true. What is your point? My point is I don't believe NcNamee's statements on face value, get me some direct evidence, or another witness then his story can be believable.

And as far as the pitchers you listed, your sample size is 4??!!
There's more, I haven't even got to hitters yet. BTW I had more on my list than you did.

And WHAT "Babe" are you referring to?
DUH! Babe Ruth! Not only was the Babe one of the greatest all-time hitters, but he was a pitcher also. Allow me to educate you. Babe was also a pretty good pitcher as well his career W/L record was 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA. In his last season with the Red Sox he started playing outfield and continued as he played for the Yankees till the end of his career. Babe played his last year in 1940 for the Boston Braves in 1935 at the age of 40 though his average that year fell below .200.

And were ANY OF those pitchers as effect as Clemens?
Yeah, Ryan, but you answered your own question in the next sentence. Have any of the pitchers you listed pitched to the effect of Clemens? I guess Kenny Rodgers was a fluke in 2006. Oh yeah he didn't fail any drug tests. I guess a 40 year old pitcher can have a good season after all.

And Ryan was just a freak of nature....someone like that, with that arm strength, comes once or twice every 50 years....Sorry, you have proved nothing but strengthen the case for me that those guys are freak jobs/flukes of nature.
You were the one that brought that up. You are saying that because these guys played into their 40's it's rare, which is true, but not impossible. Besides Clemens was accused of taking Steroids back in 2000 and 2001 when he was in his late 30's. If we apply your theory then the steroids must still be effecting him now. Clemens has not failed any drug tests since MLB implemented them.

Another argument is since there were 100s of other guys on steroids before testing, then why have none of them put up the same numbers as Clemens?

None of this makes Clemens innocent, but my argument is simple, many have rushed to judge him on some seriously weak evidence, evidence that would never hold up in a court of law (or shouldn't anyway). I can't chastise a guy on what they have.

Salsadancer, your argument is ridiculous and holds absolutely no water. There are few 40 year olds in any major sports and phenomenal players like Michael Jordon, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Nolan Ryan, Babe Ruth, Rodger Federer and more don't come along very often. They are as you say freaks of nature, but does that mean they are on Steroids? No, they are just talented.

From the beginning, we were talking about Clemens and pitchers. You HAD to expand it to OTHER sports and players because you not looking to good there sparky.... Babe Ruth pitched only 18 inninga after he was traded to the Yankees and over the age of 35, so that kills THAT GUY on your list. And Kenny Rogers has NO WHERE been as effective a Roger Clemens...and if think he has, you should be drug tested! Scratch THAT guy off your list. Nolan Ryan was a very good pitch that was a freak of nature.
But he was NOT as good and as effect as Clemens....so scratch THAT guy of your list.....

 

[Bijou Media]

From the beginning, we were talking about Clemens and pitchers. You HAD to expand it to OTHER sports and players because you not looking to good there sparky.... Babe Ruth pitched only 18 inninga after he was traded to the Yankees and over the age of 35, so that kills THAT GUY on your list. And Kenny Rogers has NO WHERE been as effective a Roger Clemens...and if think he has, you should be drug tested! Scratch THAT guy off your list. Nolan Ryan was a very good pitch that was a freak of nature.
But he was NOT as good and as effect as Clemens....so scratch THAT guy of your list.....

Well you made the comment that people over 40, or as you call it freaks of Nature. They MUST be on steroids because they are playing after that age. I'll get to that in a minute.

First lets take a look at your claim that Ryan isn't comparable to Clemens. Below you will see a comparison between Clemens, Nolan, and Randy Johnson. He's 43 BTW. if you look at all the numbers everything is pretty even except 2 things. Clemens and Johnson have a much better W/L percentage than Nolan does. However Nolan has much more Strikeouts. True he pitched in more innings, but Clemens would have to nearly strike out the side for the next 400 innings to have the same amount of strikeouts. Comparing Johnson and Clemens:
They have nearly the same stats. Except Johnson is a whole point lower than Clemens in ERA. One could certainly make the argument that Johnson is one of the greatest pitchers of all-time. You can make the argument that all three could be considered as such. Your theory, oh sorry hypothesis (since a theory is an EDUCATED guess) is getting weaker now. How do you explain the Johnson factor? You wanted a pitcher you got one. Not only that, you said Nolan isn't comparable to Clemens, the numbers tell the truth.


Let's discuss your statement about bringing other sports into this:
as you said Nolan and Clemens are one of a kind. One of a kind in baseball, meaning there isn't many of such ability out there. I brought up guys that play in other sports for you to make claims against them. You didn't nor did you offer any explanation to counter my point. My point is there are very few outstanding players to come along such as Michael Jordon and others mentioned. I ask if you think their success was due to steroid use. Your reply "You HAD to expand it to OTHER sports and players because you not looking to good there sparky...."(That's too good) What!! LMAO! You didn't answer the question, but only said because I brought that up it made my point weak. Wrong, and by the way since you had to have another pitcher I brought the Big Unit into the mix.

All you have done is talk BS and have yet to back-up any of your statements like I have.

BTW Ruth was sold to the Yankees not traded.

W/L:
Ryan 324-292 (.526) in 616 games
Clemens 354-184 (.658) in 538 games
Johnson 284-150 (.654) in 434 games

ERA:
Ryan 3.19 Innings pitched 5386.0
Clemens 3.12 Innings pitched 4916.2
Johnson 2.22 Innings pitched 3855.1

Strike Outs:
Ryan 5714
Clemens 4672
Johnson 4616

BB:
Ryan 2795
Clemens 1580
Johnson 1422

HR allowed
Ryan 321
Clemens 363
Johnson 368

Complete Games:
Ryan 222
Clemens 118
Johnson 98

Shut Outs:
Ryan 61
Clemens 46
Johnson 37

No hitters:
Ryan 7
Clemens 0
Johnson 2

Cy Young awards
Ryan 0
Clemens 7
Johnson 4

 

[salsadancer7]

Well you made the comment that people over 40, or as you call it freaks of Nature. They MUST be on steroids because they are playing after that age. I'll get to that in a minute.

First lets take a look at your claim that Ryan isn't comparable to Clemens. Below you will see a comparison between Clemens, Nolan, and Randy Johnson. He's 43 BTW. if you look at all the numbers everything is pretty even except 2 things. Clemens and Johnson have a much better W/L percentage than Nolan does. However Nolan has much more Strikeouts. True he pitched in more innings, but Clemens would have to nearly strike out the side for the next 400 innings to have the same amount of strikeouts. Comparing Johnson and Clemens:
They have nearly the same stats. Except Johnson is a whole point lower than Clemens in ERA. One could certainly make the argument that Johnson is one of the greatest pitchers of all-time. You can make the argument that all three could be considered as such. Your theory, oh sorry hypothesis (since a theory is an EDUCATED guess) is getting weaker now. How do you explain the Johnson factor? You wanted a pitcher you got one. Not only that, you said Nolan isn't comparable to Clemens, the numbers tell the truth.


Let's discuss your statement about bringing other sports into this:
as you said Nolan and Clemens are one of a kind. One of a kind in baseball, meaning there isn't many of such ability out there. I brought up guys that play in other sports for you to make claims against them. You didn't nor did you offer any explanation to counter my point. My point is there are very few outstanding players to come along such as Michael Jordon and others mentioned. I ask if you think their success was due to steroid use. Your reply "You HAD to expand it to OTHER sports and players because you not looking to good there sparky...."(That's too good) What!! LMAO! You didn't answer the question, but only said because I brought that up it made my point weak. Wrong, and by the way since you had to have another pitcher I brought the Big Unit into the mix.

All you have done is talk BS and have yet to back-up any of your statements like I have.

BTW Ruth was sold to the Yankees not traded.

W/L:
Ryan 324-292 (.526) in 616 games
Clemens 354-184 (.658) in 538 games
Johnson 284-150 (.654) in 434 games

ERA:
Ryan 3.19 Innings pitched 5386.0
Clemens 3.12 Innings pitched 4916.2
Johnson 2.22 Innings pitched 3855.1

Strike Outs:
Ryan 5714
Clemens 4672
Johnson 4616

BB:
Ryan 2795
Clemens 1580
Johnson 1422

HR allowed
Ryan 321
Clemens 363
Johnson 368

Complete Games:
Ryan 222
Clemens 118
Johnson 98

Shut Outs:
Ryan 61
Clemens 46
Johnson 37

No hitters:
Ryan 7
Clemens 0
Johnson 2

Cy Young awards
Ryan 0
Clemens 7
Johnson 4

The discussion AGAIN from the Beginning was Clemens...and you brought in OTHER players from other sports...to try to strengthen you weak as hell argument. You brought up Kenny Rogers, I shot THAT theory down and NOW you bring up Randy Johnson. BUT, in fairness, let's add him in the mix. That puts your sample size of very good pitchers OVER the age of 40 at....what? 3 maybe 4? You are drawing at straws.... Now in the end....what makes a player great is WINS and clutch performance....an Clemens with 7 Cy Youngs and 354 wins(and possibly counting) wins by a landslide....of course, using YOUR stats. Now if you wanna keep arguing that Ryan and Johnson were very good pitcher and that he deserves to be in the HOF....I will agree with you 100%. But if you are gonna argue that Ryan was either JUST AS EFFECTIVE or JUST as good as Clemens.....I suggest you quickly put down the crack pipe and walk away slowly.

And Does not matter whether I made the mistake about Babe being traded or sold....he STILL did not pitch worth a sh*t past 35...again, shooting down ANOTHER of your "great pitchers in his 40th" theory.

 

[sidekick]

Seriously guys ... we all know that the greatest pitcher in history is Ron Jeremy and he's well past 40. Err Ahhhh, wait a minute, that's not baseball though, is it?

 

[Paul Wozniak]

Hey doesn't that guy post around here? I thought I saw his name.

 

[Bijou Media]

The discussion AGAIN from the Beginning was Clemens...and you brought in OTHER players from other sports...to try to strengthen you weak as hell argument. You brought up Kenny Rogers, I shot THAT theory down and NOW you bring up Randy Johnson. BUT, in fairness, let's add him in the mix. That puts your sample size of very good pitchers OVER the age of 40 at....what? 3 maybe 4? You are drawing at straws.... Now in the end....what makes a player great is WINS and clutch performance....an Clemens with 7 Cy Youngs and 354 wins(and possibly counting) wins by a landslide....of course, using YOUR stats. Now if you wanna keep arguing that Ryan and Johnson were very good pitcher and that he deserves to be in the HOF....I will agree with you 100%. But if you are gonna argue that Ryan was either JUST AS EFFECTIVE or JUST as good as Clemens.....I suggest you quickly put down the crack pipe and walk away slowly.

And Does not matter whether I made the mistake about Babe being traded or sold....he STILL did not pitch worth a sh*t past 35...again, shooting down ANOTHER of your "great pitchers in his 40th" theory.

You lost the argument, and you are a moron. You can't argue those stats.

 

[Bijou Media]

And Does not matter whether I made the mistake about Babe being traded or sold....he STILL did not pitch worth a sh*t past 35...again, shooting down ANOTHER of your "great pitchers in his 40th" theory.

The point is you THINK you know baseball. You don't.

The discussion AGAIN from the Beginning was Clemens...and you brought in OTHER players from other sports...to try to strengthen you weak as hell argument.

It's pretty simple, There are few people in the world with such talent. let me repeat that... there are few people in the world with such talent. That in no way proves they are on steroids. Since there are few people of such talent you have to go to other sports. the point is how many Michael Jordans are there out there. So maybe Clemens is just that talented. Maybe he was on roids, but you can't prove otherwise, especially with your half-baked theories.

Once more how would Steroids improve a player in a clutch performance? That is more mental as it is physical. Once again you are speculating with nothing to back it up. If all these guy's were on steroids (and quite possibly were) why isn't there more guys out there that are so dominate?

You just keep coming up with speculation and have nothing to back it up, but what You think. Judging by some of you comments, your thoughts aren't worth much.

You're like the guy that is standing in a flooded basement and refuses to admit it rains.

 

[Mr Tony]

Seriously guys ... we all know that the greatest pitcher in history is Ron Jeremy and he's well past 40. Err Ahhhh, wait a minute, that's not baseball though, is it?

and he's still pitching

 

[Bijou Media]

You brought up Kenny Rogers, I shot THAT theory down and NOW you bring up Randy Johnson. BUT, in fairness, let's add him in the mix. That puts your sample size of very good pitchers OVER the age of 40 at....what? 3 maybe 4? You are drawing at straws....

Let's take a look at that statement:
I did not bring up Kenny Rogers; YOU did. You said the exception was Kenny Rogers, Jesse Orosco, and Tom Glavine.

From post # 9
I personally think pitcher have gotten off the hook to easily. And seeing that most pitchers, with the exception of Jesse Orosco,Kenny Rodgers and Tom Glavine(momma's make sure your sons grow up to be either lefty pitchers or catchers...quickest way to the majors...), most pitchers are out by age 37-38.


My response from post #22
I guess Kenny Rogers was a fluke in 2006. Oh yeah he didn't fail any drug tests. I guess a 40 year old pitcher can have a good season after all.

I will clarify this for you, since you're not smart enough to figure it out on your own: I said one year genius; One year, and it was a smart-ass comment so what did you shoot down? You're the one that brought up Rogers dumbass.

The players that YOU mentioned as the exception don't nearly have the numbers Clemens have. So if we go by YOUR rules they shouldn't even have been mentioned.

So here's your argument in a nutshell... Any pitcher that pitches past 40 is on steroids, they must be since they should be done by 38.

You said Clemens was in a league of his own, and I brought in Johnson's numbers and Ryan's numbers. You tried to argue that saying that Clemens was a clutch pitcher. Maybe true, but what does that have to do with steroid use.

Your arguments are useless and comical. Just like you're attempted wit. Unless you can bring some solid evidence other than your sorry-ass speculation; Shut up.

 

[Bijou Media]

Seriously guys ... we all know that the greatest pitcher in history is Ron Jeremy and he's well past 40. Err Ahhhh, wait a minute, that's not baseball though, is it?

Come on you know he's on Roids, He can't be a porn star after 40. No wait a minute that's vitamin V. Sorry my bad. I guess that performance enhancing drug is legal.

 

[salsadancer7]

You lost the argument, and you are a moron. You can't argue those stats.

LMAO!!!:haha:haha

When you have no argument .....just insult the poster....priceless!:up

 

[salsadancer7]

You brought up Kenny Rogers, I shot THAT theory down and NOW you bring up Randy Johnson. BUT, in fairness, let's add him in the mix. That puts your sample size of very good pitchers OVER the age of 40 at....what? 3 maybe 4? You are drawing at straws....

Let's take a look at that statement:
I did not bring up Kenny Rogers; YOU did. You said the exception was Kenny Rogers, Jesse Orosco, and Tom Glavine.

From post # 9
I personally think pitcher have gotten off the hook to easily. And seeing that most pitchers, with the exception of Jesse Orosco,Kenny Rodgers and Tom Glavine(momma's make sure your sons grow up to be either lefty pitchers or catchers...quickest way to the majors...), most pitchers are out by age 37-38.


My response from post #22
I guess Kenny Rogers was a fluke in 2006. Oh yeah he didn't fail any drug tests. I guess a 40 year old pitcher can have a good season after all.

I will clarify this for you, since you're not smart enough to figure it out on your own: I said one year genius; One year, and it was a smart-ass comment so what did you shoot down? You're the one that brought up Rogers dumbass.

The players that YOU mentioned as the exception don't nearly have the numbers Clemens have. So if we go by YOUR rules they shouldn't even have been mentioned.

So here's your argument in a nutshell... Any pitcher that pitches past 40 is on steroids, they must be since they should be done by 38.

You said Clemens was in a league of his own, and I brought in Johnson's numbers and Ryan's numbers. You tried to argue that saying that Clemens was a clutch pitcher. Maybe true, but what does that have to do with steroid use.

Your arguments are useless and comical. Just like you're attempted wit. Unless you can bring some solid evidence other than your sorry-ass speculation; Shut up.

Awwww......Bijou Boo-Boo gonna take his toys and go home....??:river Listen, relax, this debate is all in fun...and sometimes, people learn a thing or two.
IF you get all worked up about this here.....maybe you should go to boxers instead of that tight thong your wearing.........it's getting all twisted and stressing you out.....decaf Sparky decaf.....

 

[Bijou Media]

LMAO!!!:haha:haha

When you have no argument .....just insult the poster....priceless!:up

Kind of like you did?
from post #25
I will agree with you 100%. But if you are gonna argue that Ryan was either JUST AS EFFECTIVE or JUST as good as Clemens.....I suggest you quickly put down the crack pipe and walk away slowly.


Once again you've contradicted yourself. You said it first after getting your ass kicked. So here we are you are now whining about a personal attack after you initiated the attack


Awwww......Bijou Boo-Boo gonna take his toys and go home....??:river Listen, relax, this debate is all in fun...and sometimes, people learn a thing or two.
IF you get all worked up about this here.....maybe you should go to boxers instead of that tight thong your wearing.....:....it's getting all twisted and stressing you out.....decaf Sparky decaf.....

LOL! What are you 15? besides you're the "salsa dancer" LMFAO! nuff said about that.

Debate may be fun, but you're an idiot. Debate is interesting when the parties debating actually have an argument. You don't, you just keep talking baseless BS. Then, you cry about a personal attack after you initiated one, and then come back with another. You don't have a leg to stand on. It's more fun reading your ridiculous comments and exposing them for what they are... stupid.

YOU first stated that Clemens was for sure on Steroids.
I responded with the evidence (or lack there of) in the Mitchell report. The report used uncorroborated testimony by a drug dealer, that would probably say anything to stay out of jail. There is no physical evidence, or other witnesses to back McNamee up. It's a matter of he said she said. You have to go with the more credible source. McNamee first didn't name Clemens, then all of the sudden did. So he lied, which doesn't boost his credibility. Before or later he lied. nobody knows when.

YOU then ask how do I know that McNamee has more credibility than Clemens.
Well McNamee lied for one, and there is a lot of inconsistencies in his statements. I don't know for a fact that he lied, just deep suspicion. It's possible that Clemens did take steroids, but it's a shame he's been convicted publicly over the weak statements of McNamee.

YOU said the FBI and police use informants all the time.
True, but they corroborate their statements. The police know that this type of witness might say anything to save their own skin. It's doubtful since they are a criminal that they have any honor or character. They'd be asking for an immediate not guilty, or dismissal with that evidence. They HAVE to find something that supports that witnesses' statements. The Mitchell report doesn't offer that, but as I stated they are not prosecuting anyone. There may be suspensions do to this so I think they need real evidence.

YOU then started in with the argument, since he's over 40 and still playing he's on Steroids.
I offered up a few names of guys that are over 40 and playing. You offered 3.

YOU said those guys on the list weren't the player Roger was.
While that may be true Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson ARE up there with Roger. You started in with you stupidity, which isn't even worth repeating.

YOU said I had to bring in players from other sports to support my "weak as hell argument"
Just because a player is exceptional doesn't mean they are on Roids. Because there are few exceptional players in a given sport you have to go outside to find the larger group of exceptional athletes. You can take a wider scope and ask how many Picasos are there? How many Stephen Hawkings? Your argument is that because Roger is the best pitcher that MLB has seen, or at least one of the best and pitching over 40 he is on steroids. I offered some pitchers with similar stats, which you tragically tried to argue. I offered an explanation for the fact that there are exceptional people that are extremely talented in this world. You can't prove that Clemens is anything different. All you have to offer is baseless speculation. Besides Football, and Hockey are tougher sports than Baseball, there are guys over 40 in those sports; not many, but there are a few. Just like in Baseball.

YOU then complained when I called you a moron.
Well I certainly have a compelling argument for that.

When you have some real arguments other then you baseless and stupid speculation, then you can run with me.

 

[salsadancer7]

Kind of like you did?
from post #25
I will agree with you 100%. But if you are gonna argue that Ryan was either JUST AS EFFECTIVE or JUST as good as Clemens.....I suggest you quickly put down the crack pipe and walk away slowly.


Once again you've contradicted yourself. You said it first after getting your ass kicked. So here we are you are now whining about a personal attack after you initiated the attack


Awwww......Bijou Boo-Boo gonna take his toys and go home....??:river Listen, relax, this debate is all in fun...and sometimes, people learn a thing or two.
IF you get all worked up about this here.....maybe you should go to boxers instead of that tight thong your wearing.....:....it's getting all twisted and stressing you out.....decaf Sparky decaf.....

LOL! What are you 15? besides you're the "salsa dancer" LMFAO! nuff said about that.

Debate may be fun, but you're an idiot. Debate is interesting when the parties debating actually have an argument. You don't, you just keep talking baseless BS. Then, you cry about a personal attack after you initiated one, and then come back with another. You don't have a leg to stand on. It's more fun reading your ridiculous comments and exposing them for what they are... stupid.

YOU first stated that Clemens was for sure on Steroids.
I responded with the evidence (or lack there of) in the Mitchell report. The report used uncorroborated testimony by a drug dealer, that would probably say anything to stay out of jail. There is no physical evidence, or other witnesses to back McNamee up. It's a matter of he said she said. You have to go with the more credible source. McNamee first didn't name Clemens, then all of the sudden did. So he lied, which doesn't boost his credibility. Before or later he lied. nobody knows when.

YOU then ask how do I know that McNamee has more credibility than Clemens.
Well McNamee lied for one, and there is a lot of inconsistencies in his statements. I don't know for a fact that he lied, just deep suspicion. It's possible that Clemens did take steroids, but it's a shame he's been convicted publicly over the weak statements of McNamee.

YOU said the FBI and police use informants all the time.
True, but they corroborate their statements. The police know that this type of witness might say anything to save their own skin. It's doubtful since they are a criminal that they have any honor or character. They'd be asking for an immediate not guilty, or dismissal with that evidence. They HAVE to find something that supports that witnesses' statements. The Mitchell report doesn't offer that, but as I stated they are not prosecuting anyone. There may be suspensions do to this so I think they need real evidence.

YOU then started in with the argument, since he's over 40 and still playing he's on Steroids.
I offered up a few names of guys that are over 40 and playing. You offered 3.

YOU said those guys on the list weren't the player Roger was.
While that may be true Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson ARE up there with Roger. You started in with you stupidity, which isn't even worth repeating.

YOU said I had to bring in players from other sports to support my "weak as hell argument"
Just because a player is exceptional doesn't mean they are on Roids. Because there are few exceptional players in a given sport you have to go outside to find the larger group of exceptional athletes. You can take a wider scope and ask how many Picasos are there? How many Stephen Hawkings? Your argument is that because Roger is the best pitcher that MLB has seen, or at least one of the best and pitching over 40 he is on steroids. I offered some pitchers with similar stats, which you tragically tried to argue. I offered an explanation for the fact that there are exceptional people that are extremely talented in this world. You can't prove that Clemens is anything different. All you have to offer is baseless speculation. Besides Football, and Hockey are tougher sports than Baseball, there are guys over 40 in those sports; not many, but there are a few. Just like in Baseball.

YOU then complained when I called you a moron.
Well I certainly have a compelling argument for that.

When you have some real arguments other then you baseless and stupid speculation, then you can run with me.

WOW...where to start....color coded and everything, apparently you must have alot of time on your hands. Let's see....seeing that things are separated in color, I will keep up with you 'execellent attention to detail'....

When saying, "put down the crack pipe", is more or less telling someone to "stop drinking the kool-aid"....get with the lingo dude. I have yet to call you an "idiot", or "stupid". Also, I think the fact that you would call Nolan Ryan just as effective as Clemens is crazy.....yet to call any of your opinions "BS", but I guess everyone has one. Now, if you go back and read post #3 from this thread, I said....and I quote:

In the "60 Minutes" interview, I have never seen an athlete so nervous in my life. Not even one sitting in a trail that was due to testify. Now again, I will try to go by the mantra of "innocent till proven guilty".....but he looks and acts like a man that has something to hide...and " if it walks like a duck and quacks like one......"

NOW, if you get out of THAT that I said he was "on steroids for sure"....you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Please read the comments, it might help Now, you suspect McNamee is lying..and I JUST suspected he, as in Clemens, has something to hide...soooo what's the difference? none. I stated most pitchers are out in the late 30s....you mentioned Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Babe Ruth(though I don't know WHERE you got that from) and Nolan Ryan and that, being only a sample size 3...sorry, Babe Ruth does not count...was not enough to support your argument. And by the way, Jack Morris, according to: Jack Morris Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com , retired at 39 and NOT at 41 as you stated. If you look at his stats, his last 2 years was a robust 17-18 with an ERA around 6.00....not too effective and not in the same league as Roger Clemens! Then, you went off with Michael Jordan, Mario Lemieux, Roger Federer, Tiger Woods and Wayne Gretzky....knowing the subject at hand CLEARLY WAS pitchers in their 40s.....

As far as "running with you"....why would I keep that kind of company...?

OOppsss....what a hypocrite I am....damn, I just insulted the poster....sorry

 

[Bijou Media]

WOW...where to start....color coded and everything, apparently you must have alot of time on your hands. Let's see....seeing that things are separated in color, I will keep up with you 'execellent attention to detail'....

When saying, "put down the crack pipe", is more or less telling someone to "stop drinking the kool-aid"....get with the lingo dude. I have yet to call you an "idiot", or "stupid". Also, I think the fact that you would call Nolan Ryan just as effective as Clemens is crazy.....yet to call any of your opinions "BS", but I guess everyone has one. Now, if you go back and read post #3 from this thread, I said....and I quote:



NOW, if you get out of THAT that I said he was "on steroids for sure"....you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Please read the comments, it might help Now, you suspect McNamee is lying..and I JUST suspected he, as in Clemens, has something to hide...soooo what's the difference? none. I stated most pitchers are out in the late 30s....you mentioned Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Babe Ruth(though I don't know WHERE you got that from) and Nolan Ryan and that, being only a sample size 3...sorry, Babe Ruth does not count...was not enough to support your argument. And by the way, Jack Morris, according to: Jack Morris Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com , retired at 39 and NOT at 41 as you stated. If you look at his stats, his last 2 years was a robust 17-18 with an ERA around 6.00....not too effective and not in the same league as Roger Clemens! Then, you went off with Michael Jordan, Mario Lemieux, Roger Federer, Tiger Woods and Wayne Gretzky....knowing the subject at hand CLEARLY WAS pitchers in their 40s.....

As far as "running with you"....why would I keep that kind of company...?

OOppsss....what a hypocrite I am....damn, I just insulted the poster....sorry

I'm a published author and a baseball writer. That's what kind of company I am. You are just some guy on a forum that thinks he's smart. So no you can't run with me.

As for Jack Morris, maybe your right I got my numbers from MLB, and will have to double check.
But what about Jesse Orosco, which was on YOUR list.

You also stated that that he looked guilty and then tried to shoot down (unsuccessfully, though you seem to think you did.) My statements that they have no corroborating evidence. Now that you have been slapped around you say Oh, I only said he looked guilty. LMAO. Then why are you trying so hard to prove your point if you don't think he's guilty? Any decent judge would throw the sad excuse for evidence they have out.

You can keep arguing all you want; your beat.

 

[Bijou Media]

You are correct about Morris.

Ok let's switch gears then.

So If Clemens hasn't failed any drug tests since 2005

lets look at his stats

W/L:
2005 13-8
2006 7-6
2007 6-6

ERA:
2005 1.87
2006 2.30
2007 4.18

Strikeouts
2005 185
2006 102
2007 68

Now his numbers are down last year, but the guy is in his 40's pitching against 20 year olds! Yes it makes him an exceptional player. 4.18 isn't bad, though he wasn't dominate.

Since he has passed drug screens, then that's physical proof he is not using steroids. There you go it's all about Clemens this time. Since Steroids have no long-term effects then once again there goes your so-called theory.

I use 2005 because that is when the stiffer policy started.
Interesting stat. Roger had 2 seasons that he was under 2 ERA. 1990 with the BoSox, and 2005 with the Astros. His highest ERA was in 1993 with Boston 4.46

 

[vurbano]

You lost the argument, and you are a moron. You can't argue those stats.

I agree with the obvious part of that.

 

[salsadancer7]

I'm a published author and a baseball writer. That's what kind of company I am. You are just some guy on a forum that thinks he's smart. So no you can't run with me.

As for Jack Morris, maybe your right I got my numbers from MLB, and will have to double check.
But what about Jesse Orosco, which was on YOUR list.

You also stated that that he looked guilty and then tried to shoot down (unsuccessfully, though you seem to think you did.) My statements that they have no corroborating evidence. Now that you have been slapped around you say Oh, I only said he looked guilty. LMAO. Then why are you trying so hard to prove your point if you don't think he's guilty? Any decent judge would throw the sad excuse for evidence they have out.

You can keep arguing all you want; your beat.

WOW...a published author AND a baseball writer??!! Not bad, too bad you credibility is shot because IF YOU were as astute as you say you were in baseball, you would have both KNOWN that Babe ONLY pitched around 18 innings AFTER the age of 35 AND that Jack Morris did not play after the age of 39 and was pretty much washed up....but who am I, just some "guy on a forum that THINKS he's smart". Again, seeing that you didn't know about baseball as much you professed to know.....I STILL don't want to "run with you".... Don't wanna run with a guy that HAS to make know his credentials to make himself feel important. And I didn't get slapped around because my post about my original statement was RIGHT ABOVE YOURS, trying checking it....post #3 on this thread....

Hmm...Jesse Orosco:

87 wins, 80 losses career....ERA at 3.16. After the age of 39, 19-16 with an ERA around 3.75. Against lefties, his ERA was 1.19...but you know this, I mean you ARE a baseball writer....