Retrofit My Radioshack Dish Onto My KTI Mount

[a33]

Well, you wrote:

A33,

When I tilt the inclinometer away from the axis the numbers go up.

If you did this test in the way I described it, I think my reasoning is correct (IMHO).

But in case not: that is why I explicitly wrote the numbers; AND "Raised (more horizontal)".
If, while doing it, you find these two descriptions contradictory to each other, please report!

When it does fit and they are not contradictory: this is exactly why these angles can become confusing!
What we are sorting out now, during these posts. How you call the angles, how your inclinometer measures them, and how we call the angles. Long distance help is not always easy...

Therefore, also, the photoos do help enormously. To measure from the photo, and, if ambiguous, as a cause to (double)check something!

Greetz,
A33

 

[JFOK]

Brian,

Here are the pictures you asked for.
A whole reflector shot and close-up of only the mount and ring from the side.
Hope these shots are helpful.
Thanks for your assistance its much appreciated.

John

 

[JFOK]

A33,

I know I'm sounding very dense or ignorant and I apologize for that because I do appreciate all your help.
However, I don't know how to go about making this new measurement your suggested...raising the axis even more towards the sky.
Earlier today, I raised it to 47.4. You mentioned raising it from 47.4 to 42.65 on my inclinometer. Isn't that a lower number and so wouldn't I in essence, be lowering my dish ?
Thanks,

John

 

[Titanium]

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Could you take the wide shot from the side, lining up the reflector rim edges? Want to see the angle of the reflector in relationship to the vertical pole.

Also, be great for the close-up to line-up the mounting ring plane to show the ring angle in relationship to the vertical pole.

 

[zack]

A33 and Mike,

Let me make sure I got this straight...you are suggesting that after raising the dish to its highest point in the arc, at true south, to elevate it to either 47.5 or 48.5 (combined elevation and declination), correct ? After doing this, the declination would be correct, or would there be a further declination adjustment needed ? Sorry if I seem a little "dense" here, but I want to be sure I totally understand this procedure.
One of the things I checked was if the RS dish hub was square with the KTI mount, and it is.
I appreciate the suggestions from both of you...its much appreciated.

Thanks,

John

John, how did you check that it was square? In your photo on post #62 it looks closer to the KTI mount at the top, and further out out the bottom!

Just think about this. On your car or truck in the mating area between the wheel hub and the brake rotor, a few thousands of an inch off will have you looking for a fix! Your brake pedal or your whole car will be shaking!

The hub is maybe five to six inches and the rotor is only ten to twelve inches!

Now we are talking about nine or ten feet of sat dish mated to a modified mount?

A quarter inch would be a disaster, do like Primestar 31 said, measure it across the face of the dish!

 

[JFOK]

Hi Zack,

Before attaching the RS hub to the KTI mount I took careful measurements several times, to make sure I was directly dead center with the mount. I re-measured it again after attaching to make sure the RS hub edges were equidistant from the edge of the mount and they are.
I also checked to make sure the RS mount was flush with the KTI mount and it is. There is no space between the hub edges and the mount.
I followed the old Bob Vila adage..."measure twice, cut once."
I might have another picture to better show the hub attachment to the mount prior to building the dish. I'll post if i can find it. I've found that sometimes an iPhone photo has somewhat of an optical illusion toward the edges of a picture. I do plan on taking primestar31's measuring advice,
Thanks for your input its greatly appreciated.

John

 

[a33]

You mentioned raising it from 47.4 to 42.65 on my inclinometer. Isn't that a lower number and so wouldn't I in essence, be lowering my dish ?

Well, the axis was set at an angle of 47.4 (inclinometer at right side of axis), and I asked :

Now shift the UPside of the inclinometer a bit away from the axis (so in your photo: a bit more to the right).
(The lower side of the inclinometer stays at the axis.)

You answered that

When I tilt the inclinometer away from the axis the numbers go up.

That means that rotating further, you'd reach the vertical position with 90 degrees on the inclinometer.
That means while rotating in the other direction, that you'd reach the horizontal position with zero degrees on the inclinometer.

Had you said the numbers would have gone down, then the result would have been:
Rotating further, you'd reach the vertical position with zero degrees on the inclinometer.
And while rotating in the other direction, that you'd reach the horizontal position with 90 degrees on the inclinometer.

This is because you can use most inclinometers with reference zero is horizontal, or with reference zero is vertical.

And the relation between those two angles is: when you add them, you get 90.
Or, written differently: the one angle = 90 minus the other angle.


So, look back on my first post in this thread, where I tried to describe the angles PLUS the reference line for 0 degrees:

Most likely you are using inclination and declination wrongly together, so using values with horizontal = 0 degree mixed with values where vertical = 0 degrees?

For LAT=42: modified LAT is 42,65, so axis elevation (0=vertical!) = 47.35 towards the vertical.
modified declination offset = 5.85
Total dish elevation = 47.35-5.85 = 41.50 towards the vertical (= your 48.50 towards the horizontal)

Is this of help?
(I always remember/visualize the systematics by ELEVATION angle, as you can see here. Otherwise I get confused myself. )

Does this make things clearer?

Greetz,
A33

 

[JFOK]

Brian,

Is this the angle you were looking for with my dish ?

John

 

[JFOK]

A33,

Just got home from work and just for the heck of it, without adjusting the axis angle of 47.4 just yet and using using primestar31's 2X4 measuring advice, I measured the dish angle at 49.5. I think what you told me is starting to sink in. You were describing the method in which the inclinometer was being held..."This is because you can use most inclinometers with reference zero is horizontal, or with reference zero is vertical."
Thanks for staying with me on this effort.

John

 

[primestar31]

I stopped posting for now because A33 has been giving GREAT advice, and it's easier for you to stick to his info as much as possible. We've been both basically saying the same thing, only coming from our own points of view.

Still, stay with him and you'll get it done!

Don't forget that using the 2x4 across the face, shows you the TOTAL degrees, which is a combination of Elevation AND declination. Once Elevation is set correctly, the unknown Declination will be able to be locked in. Then never touch it again when you do final tweaking between center and ends of arc.

 

[JFOK]

A33 and Mike,

This where I'm at now, the red bar is 47.4.
The yellow bar is at 42.
Sorry for my ignorance, (which is bordering on annoying I know) but what now is my next step ?
Please be as basic (i.e. dumb it down) as much as possible.
Thanks in advance and thanks for all your patience.

John

**UPDATE** I just hooked up my Sathero 300HD Sat Finder just out of curiosity and I picked up 78W 3838V 6670 with a strength of between 12.4 and 15.1db. I think I'm in the home stretch now thanks to all of you who offered patience, advice and encouragement.
I wont touch the declination just tweak the LNBF and elevation a bit.
Thanks again to all.

 

[a33]

Yes, let it sink in!
And maybe re-read some posts, to check your new understanding.
And thank you primestar31 !


After that, sometime, I suggest we go further with what's written in posts #117 and #121 ? (Setting/adjusting/checking rotation axis angle further.)

I hope you had a good dinner?

Greetz,
A33

Edit: I see you just posted.
The red bar should be more towards the sky. See the mentioned postnumbers.

 

[a33]

I see your added edit;

No you are not there yet!
You may catch some satellites now, but you are no way following the total arc with these settings!

Just keep following procedures!

 

[JFOK]

A33,

Just seeing a signal is a big plus. I know there is more tweaking to do and realize I’m not totally on the arc yet.
I will re-read the posts you mentioned and keep you updated with my progress be it plus or minus.
Haven’t had dinner yet lol.
Thanks again.

John

 

[Titanium]

View attachment 140769

FYI: The face of the dish appears to be set close to 40-42 degrees in this photo.

 

[a33]

Speaking about tweaking:
Tweaking is very timeconsuming!

So if you set the angles as good as possible right from the start, you have much much less tweaking to do.

That is why we use the modified motor angles in this thread: so you don't have to tweak to arrive in the end at about those modified angles, which you could have set right from the beginning.
And also, when you have no perfect south satellite, it is good to use ways to nevertheless set the highest position of your mount at due south (see for instance Aiming at true south ).


Even following procedure, you'll have reception again soon!
Now that the confusion about angles and inclinometer seems to reach the end, I think we will go faster..

Greetz,
A33

 

[JFOK]

Hi A33,

I've raised the red bar (see post 131) to 50.2 with a slight improvement in db strength with 3838v 6670 and can now receive one other transponder that I wasn't able to receive yesterday... 3922v 3002.

John

 

[a33]

Why 50.2 ????

Set it to 42.65 (= elevation 47.35), as indicated in post #117.
Don't focus on reception just yet! It's useless in the aligning procedure at this moment, though it may feel rewarding to you....

Next steps will be (and we will guide you through the process, if needed, I guess):
- align mount and dish at zero-position (as you had already done, earlier)
- set declination offset/total elevation at proper angle (it is way off right now)
- find due south
- find a satellite (and reception!)
- check reception on total arc (that's the aim, don't you agree?)

Tweaking comes after that, not just now.
When you build a house, you also don't start with the roof, but with the base, do you?


BTW when you say you 'raised' it to 50.2, have you changed to now using the inclinometer in reference to vertical=0 (elevation angle)? As to confuse us?
Or did you 'lower' it to 50.2? (That is what I would expect.)
I suggest you stay to your old way of using the inclinometer during this thread (or that you indicate the reference=0 position everytime!).

A33

 

[JFOK]

A33,

When I asked you what I should do with the "red bar" in post 132, you indicted that it should be more towards the sky.
So, I took that to mean that it should be raised, tilted more skyward. This took me to 50.2. I apologize for the misunderstanding and will return it to 42.65. After seeing the db strength with 78W (Simon Bolivar) I guess I got a little overzealous.
The dish is presently at zero position and at due south once again. When I adjusted the elevation yesterday I used my iPhone, as my inclinometer wasn't readily available. The readings with both were identical which is good as I've had that inclineometer MANY years, which includes several drops to the ground. Good to know that despite all those drops, its still accurate.
I will take a picture later after work, to show you how I'm using the inclineometer to remove any doubts and will await further instructions.
I kind of feel like a blind man landing a 747, but with your instructions (from the tower) I'm planning to land successfully.
Thanks again.

John

 

[a33]

OK,
More skyward, and the reading is 50.2? And you use the inclimeter in a consistent way? Now you confuse me extra!

I assessed your photoos with thinking your pole is plumb north/south-wise.
So in the photo of #111 I thought the axis elevation is about 43 degrees, and you mentioned it was 'set at 47.4 degrees'. So I assumed you used not the elevation angle, but the complementary value, of 90 - elevation.

So either you're not using the inclimeter in a consistent way, or your pole is not plumb?

Anyways,
a.) When the axis angle is at 42.65 or 47.35, whichever value of these two brings the dish more facing the sky,

b.) When the mount and dish are aligned at zero-postion,

c.) You can now set de declination offset angle, by setting the total dish elevation at 41.50 (or at 48.50, whichever value of those two brings the dish more facing the earth). Using the dish face as basis for the angle, as Primestar wrote.
You'll see that the declination offset bolt is long enough.


When you're confused about how you use your inclinometer yourself, use the method in post #90.
(47.35 and 41.50 are the values in the elevation-way.)

Greetz,
A33