Patent Office upholds Tivo's "time warp" patent, EchoStar not so happy

Dish will have to either swap out the DVR's for ones that will not infringe on the patent, change the software, or pay Tivo to save their DVR business. If Dish cannot do a software upgrade then this will be the time for them to upgrade everyone to MPEG-4 that currently has an MPEG-2 DVR if it's cheaper than paying off Tivo seeing that Dish is going to have to do a swap eventually and should figure that into the cost.
 
Maybe the judge will have a 622/722 that he doesn't want to have turned off. Can you see the conversation once he/she got home; "honey, you won't be able to record soaps / Pinks because I made dish turn off our dvr" :)
 
Dish will have to either swap out the DVR's for ones that will not infringe on the patent, change the software, or pay Tivo to save their DVR business. If Dish cannot do a software upgrade then this will be the time for them to upgrade everyone to MPEG-4 that currently has an MPEG-2 DVR if it's cheaper than paying off Tivo seeing that Dish is going to have to do a swap eventually and should figure that into the cost.

Changing out their DVRs or implementing software that does NOT infringe is not as easy as some people apparently think it is. With software, you cannot simply recode a program and say its new technology and doesn't infringe on a patent. Same for hardware, a simple change does NOT mean you have new technology, you are attempting to use the same "idea" (intellectual property that is patentable) and just circumvent the infringement.

Moto, SA, Moxi, D*, et. al. have licensing agreements in place with TiVo, and like it or not, chuckie is not immune to the laws of the US, no matter what he thinks.

With the additional charges that E* has levied in the time they have been infringing on the patents, the amount they OWE TiVo is chicken-feed and they should have done the respectable thing and paid up. Doing anything else makes the management there look less than reputable, IMO, and I cannot see how it benefits the users of the service or the stockholders.
 
i think i saw a link in this thread to the broadcom chip that dish uses? it was called "dvr on a chip" or something like that. shouldn't tivo have gone after them instead of whoever uses it? i've been reading without posting, but this whole thing smells. it's almost like intell wanting to sue me for building my system w/ an amd i still call it a pc.......
 
I think only the 622/722 may use this newer Broadcom chipset and the 622/722 may in fact not be affected. I still say the reason it wasn't listed in the patent lawsuit was simply that it DID NOT EXIST at the time it was written up.

Anyone know what the 5xx, 721, and other older DVRs use for chipsets ?
 
Well, what was listed in the injunction notice was:

DP-501, DP-508, DP-510, DP-721, DP-921, DP-522, DP-625, DP-942, and all EchoStar DVRs that are not more than colorably different from any of these products

Which means that it is a forward-looking statement. That is, if the newer receivers are based upon the same technology, they will also be subject to the injunction, until Dish Network can prove they do not infringe.

I believe the 622 was new enough at the start of the trial that it was simply ignored by TiVo.
 
...if the newer receivers are based upon the same technology, they will also be subject to the injunction, until Dish Network can prove they do not infringe.
I don't believe it works that way. Dish doesn't have to dis-prove anything. TiVo can probably amend the existing lawsuit to include the 622 and more recently the 722 if they feel it's warranted. For TiVo to simply say "and all Echostar DVRs..." is just too wide open.
 
And what would be his basis for going after these companies? IIRC, these other companies have binding agreements/already settled with TiVO and have licensed this technology. Just because Charlie buys TiVo doesn't mean these agreements would go away.

As far as buying TiVo goes, there are a lot of things affecting this, not the least of which is the rumored AT&T purchase of Echostar. I don't forsee Dish losing it's DVR's, but I do think the cost to keep them just went up - assuming the Appeals Court turns down Dish's appeal.

When companies want things to happen, like a corporate marriage, they can make it happen. There are all sorts of financial legerdemain and infinitely complex schemes some involving cash not much cash or no cash at all. Stock in the purchasing company and seats on that company's board is an extremely common method of acquiring a company (perhaps I should not have said the word buy, as "acquiring" is more accurate), especially when it involves a much bigger company (Echostar) acquiring a much smaller company (Tivo). Tivo is still struggling, and a good acquisition offer involving Echostar would be Tivo's dream come true because they, like everyone else in business, got in to make whole lot of money.

There are still some large companies that, at least I last head of, still do not have any agreements with Tivo: Scientific Atlanta and Motorola for two. Please correct me if I am wrong on that. Once the Echostar matter is put away, you can count on Tivo to going after Moxie, and others, by using this court case as leverage. Any other company might be foolish, even if they know they did not use Tivo technology, to fight Tivo after a clear defeat for Echostar (this case is not over yet, so no threats until it is over).

Let us not forget, that the core issue is not Tivo's legitimacy of it patents, but if Echostar "stole" Tivo's patented technology, and that matter was determined by jurors who were out of their depth regarding complex computer code (we all are out of our depth regarding that, really) and, instead, focused on the fact (and plaintiff's attorney's focused on this, as well) that Tivo intentionally left behind one of their units (strange behavior for the extremely patent protective Tivo. Could they have left it behind for a possible lawsuit?) at Dish Network after a demonstration. Tivo never asked for it back. Agreed, Dish doesn't know what happened to the Tivo unit, either, so many years ago, but it does not prove that Dish used Tivo's patented technology. Let us remember that the Patent office did invalidate Tivo's hardware patents, so this is now a question of software.

I read an article in which 2 of the Tyler, Texas jurors explained their logic and that of the other jurors in reaching their decision in favor of Tivo, and it is summarized as this:

DishPlayer 7000 is a fiasco.
Tivo leaves unit at Dish Network after demonstration.
New Dish 50X and subsequent DVR's are a success.
Therefore, Dish "stole" Tivo patented technology from the unit left behind at Dish.


Aside from the above being troubling logic, none of it has anything to do with how the Dish DVR's achieves Time Warp and how the Tivo DVR's achieve Time Warp. For that you need to know not the English language, but the computer language, and even some computer scientists are incapable of interpreting that language into our plain language because it gets lost in the translation. But a jury of computer scientists are the only people who have any chance of answering the real question put before the court. The rest of us haven't a clue.

Add to that the U.S. Patent's Office tepid admission, after government investigation and testimony before congress a few years ago, that they have issued patents regarding computer code that are too broad and, in many cases, the office had no clue as to what they were asked to patent but issued a patent, anyway. Perhaps Echostar did use Tivo technology. In truth, we'll never really know.
 
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DishSubLA said:
Let us remember that the Patent office did invalidate Tivo's hardware patents, so this is now a question of software.
Then you missed the news, which would be the topic of this post, and is available in the very first link:

The long-running dispute between Tivo and EchoStar inched a little closer to resolution today, with the United States Patent Office issuing a non-appealable ruling saying that Tivo's DVR-enabling "time warp" patent is valid.

It appears the hardware claims have been reinstated.
 
Then you missed the news, which would be the topic of this post, and is available in the very first link:

The long-running dispute between Tivo and EchoStar inched a little closer to resolution today, with the United States Patent Office issuing a non-appealable ruling saying that Tivo's DVR-enabling "time warp" patent is valid.

It appears the hardware claims have been reinstated.

"Time warp" was software, not hardware.
 
No, the "time warp" patent is software and hardware. The PTO acutally rejected the hardware claims in the "Time Warp" patent a few months back. However, once the re-exam was completed, it appears the hardware claims are back, and the entire patent has been validated.
 
No, the "time warp" patent is software and hardware. The PTO acutally rejected the hardware claims in the "Time Warp" patent a few months back. However, once the re-exam was completed, it appears the hardware claims are back, and the entire patent has been validated.

Show me where it says the hardware portion was back. It appears to be talking about the software only.
 
Uh, TiVo's own press release:
"We are extremely pleased that the PTO has now found all claims of the Time Warp Patent to be valid after conducting a reexamination of the patent requested by EchoStar. This decision by the PTO is final and not appealable by EchoStar. Today's decision by the PTO brings us another step closer to ending EchoStar's continued infringement and we are hopeful that the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit will uphold the district court judgment of patent infringement and reinstate the injunction."
I bolded the part that ALL claims are valid. Not just the software claims. ALL claims.
 
Well, what was listed in the injunction notice was:

DP-501, DP-508, DP-510, DP-721, DP-921, DP-522, DP-625, DP-942, and all EchoStar DVRs that are not more than colorably different from any of these products

Which means that it is a forward-looking statement. That is, if the newer receivers are based upon the same technology, they will also be subject to the injunction, until Dish Network can prove they do not infringe.

I believe the 622 was new enough at the start of the trial that it was simply ignored by TiVo.

WooHoo! My 7100's are unaffected?:D
 
That appears to be the case. TiVo did not press any claims on the 7100/7200, because it was supposedly rudimentary in its use as a DVR, and it may not have infringed on the patent.
 
Uh, TiVo's own press release:I bolded the part that ALL claims are valid. Not just the software claims. ALL claims.

The apologists are unable to understand the meaning of "all", it appears, among a lot of other facts. I know that if chuckie would issue a press release other than the lame-o one he did if there was any chance in hell of his winning this one. :D
 
The apologists are unable to understand the meaning of "all", it appears, among a lot of other facts. I know that if chuckie would issue a press release other than the lame-o one he did if there was any chance in hell of his winning this one. :D

No, what we want to know specifically, is the "all" referring to all software patents, all hardware patents or both? It's a very simple question.
 
I'm going to get flack for this one:

The PTO has now found all claims of the Time Warp Patent to be valid.

The above is a sentence. It is the bold phrase I highlighted in my post, with capitalization and punctuation added.

The PTO - that would be a subject of the sentence
has found - that would be the verb of the sentence
now - the adverb, modifying 'has found', telling the reader when the verb occurred (When found? Now.)
claims - the object of the sentence
all - the adjective, modifying 'claims', telling the reader how many of the noun occurred (How many claims? All.)
of the Time Warp patent - the prepositional phrase, modifying 'claims', telling the reader the type of claims (the Time Warp patent)
to be valid - the infinitive phrase, acting as an adjective, modifying 'claims', telling the reader the type of claims (valid)

In all honesty, I cannot fathom what the problem is. All claims of the "Time Warp" patent have been found to be valid. Not software claims. Not hardware claims. Not all remaining claims. Just ALL claims.

The "Time Warp" patent is the only patent at dispute here. It has many facets, including both software and hardware claims. And upon re-examination by the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO), ALL claims in the patent are now ruled valid.
 

Repoint to 118 from 121

722/322 problems

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