MPEG4 Upgrade Discussion

[sateck01]

longhorn,

correct on one, new dish is 18x28 with 5 circular polarity lnbs all in one unit, with an internal multi-switch, no where the size of "superdish", it doesnt have to be you are only "looking " from 99 to 119, a 20 degree window. that is only 2 degrees more than now.

point two as a patriotic american, and a member of the 52%ers. we are in afghanistan and iraq to fight terrorism in all its forms. and for a statement like that on the 4th of july weekend........

 

[LonghornXP]

longhorn,

correct on one, new dish is 18x28 with 5 circular polarity lnbs all in one unit, with an internal multi-switch, no where the size of "superdish", it doesnt have to be you are only "looking " from 99 to 119, a 20 degree window. that is only 2 degrees more than now.

point two as a patriotic american, and a member of the 52%ers. we are in afghanistan and iraq to fight terrorism in all its forms. and for a statement like that on the 4th of july weekend........

I'm confused on this. Can you please point out which one of my posts your talking about. I'm not sure what statement your saying I made but I would like to know it.

 

[Hogarth]

hogarth,

no they are not for hd locals only

the two new birds I was referring to were the spaceway twins, which are indeed HD LIL only. they may put a few national HD channels on them, but they're going to be 95% LIL.

 

[Bear]

I was lacking in the details provided my example thought, but my point was that MPEG4 is ONLY a compression scheme, a software algorithm if you will, and is very well developed although not currently used now in our DBS products that we are discussing. The current software scheme works very well to do live HD sports "on the fly" (my example) the main thing MPEG4 is going to allow, is to do more, send more data, in less space, and more efficiently.

The person's comment however is meant to make us believe that there is not enough chip wafer material available to manufacture all the components needed to build the STB's and the like and like Longhorn said that is 1000% pure crap-ola!

Actually, the point is to the speed of current chips, not availability of materials. Also, the Olympics, et al., are shot in MPEG-2, and while still shots looked great, pans had all sorts of artifacts. Then there was the blur issues with Diving and Gymnastics where circular motion is involved (the MPEG-2 encoding scheme has particular trouble with fast rotational motion).

If you check a different forum, you can read discussions by Keith Jack, from Sigma Designs, and Amir M..., from Miscrosoft, on the various plusses and minuses of VC-1 (WMV-HD) and AVC (MPEG-4/H.264). AVC IS more computationally intensive, and I would expect there to be some teething issues, serious teething issues with D*'s real-time encoding gear if they try to get anywhere close to the theoretical "sweet spot" compression ratio of the technology.

 

[Barney]

Longhorn or any of you gurus. This is a post on another forum. Is this guy speaking the truth...or give me something to post in responce. Help me out gang......

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MPEG-4 (H.324) won't be ready for prime time for another year to 18 months. The silicon needed to encode live HD programming at acceptable qualities is just now being developed and won't be used in a product for another 6 months and then it will have to be tested, tuned and tweaked before it can be deployed by a HD programming provider.

Video which was encoded in non-realtime, like movies for HBO, are another story. The content is already enncoded before it is broadcast, so they can offer MPEG-4 on those. It is the sporting events and local channels which are not going to be available for at least a year.
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Help me out...........

Barney

Okay gurus.......I found the link of a major purchase of MPEG4 decoders...any thoughts........

Mpeg4
This was back in Jan 2005.........come on gurus...help me here..I'm trying...was this order by D*?

Barney

 

[Alan Gordon]

Okay gurus.......I found the link of a major purchase of MPEG4 decoders...any thoughts........

Mpeg4
This was back in Jan 2005.........come on gurus...help me here..I'm trying...was this order by D*?

YES! DirecTV purchased MPEG-4 encoders from Tandberg months ago. Supposedly will allow them to fit 6 MPEG-4 HD feeds on one transponder.

~Alan

 

[Barney]

YES! DirecTV purchased MPEG-4 encoders from Tandberg months ago. Supposedly will allow them to fit 6 MPEG-4 HD feeds on one transponder.

~Alan

Okay Longhorn, if this is true, D* only got half of the order by mid year 2005 (July 2005) & will need testing.........so the engineer that stated it will be months after getting the MPEG4 decoders.........he's dead on........its going to be awhile folks.....no info on HD-DVR's, HD-STB's, even SD-STB's...seems its going to be awhile.........I'm #54 on the list.....going to be a long time before they "upgrade" me.........by the way, the link doesn't say when the last half of the order is.......I'll just enjoy OTA..for now, there isn't anything going on now anyway........will get to watch local College Football & NFL football coming in Sept...all for free........yup, I pledged & dropped D*.

Barney

 

[Alan Gordon]

Okay Longhorn, if this is true, D* only got half of the order by mid year 2005 (July 2005) & will need testing.........so the engineer that stated it will be months after getting the MPEG4 decoders.........he's dead on........

Actually, since DirecTV's not going to have all 210 DMAs up this year, they wouldn't have to have all of them right away.

Also, DirecTV has been testing Tandberg encoders for months now, both at DIRECTV's Los Angeles Broadcast Center and Castle Rock, Co. Broadcast Center, and "The system is now testing successfully both in DIRECTV labs and over a satellite link", so I suspect that testing is probably doing alright...

~Alan

 

[Barney]

Actually, since DirecTV's not going to have all 210 DMAs up this year, they wouldn't have to have all of them right away.

Also, DirecTV has been testing Tandberg encoders for months now, both at DIRECTV's Los Angeles Broadcast Center and Castle Rock, Co. Broadcast Center, and "The system is now testing successfully both in DIRECTV labs and over a satellite link", so I suspect that testing is probably doing alright...

~Alan

How can you say they have been testing for months now? They just now got Spaceway1 in location...lost it for awhile.....? This post by Longhorn is dated 6-27-05.......thats only days ago!

Spaceway 1

How can they be testing for months?

Barney

 

[charper1]

MPEG4 is ONLY a software compression scheme. The satellites do not care what is being fed through it as long as the frequencies are correct AND they can test their new headend encoders (or anything else for that matter) on any bird with an open transponder they want to. I am sure they have at least a few that are open for tests. This would be the same way they demonstrated the MPEG4 ESPN2 HD broadcasts at the show without end users being in the loop if I remember correctly, right? They could most possibly even rent a spot from someone else if they didn't have any open transponders.

 

[Alan Gordon]

How can you say they have been testing for months now? They just now got Spaceway1 in location...lost it for awhile.....? This post by Longhorn is dated 6-27-05.......thats only days ago!

Spaceway 1

How can they be testing for months?

Charper1 already answered your question (thanks!), and supposedly DirecTV has indeed been testing MPEG4 feeds on their satellites since at least April (possibly before), and were showing an MPEG-4 demo at CES back in January coming from a current satellite, long before SpaceWay-1 was even launched... which as of Thursday was at the 111.0 orbital location, and not in it's final location.

Also, the Humax standalone HD boxes are supposedly being tested by DirecTV employees now, and I'd be surprised if DirecTV wasn't testing KA off of DirecTV-8.

~Alan

 

[Barney]

MPEG4 is ONLY a software compression scheme. The satellites do not care what is being fed through it as long as the frequencies are correct AND they can test their new headend encoders (or anything else for that matter) on any bird with an open transponder they want to. I am sure they have at least a few that are open for tests. This would be the same way they demonstrated the MPEG4 ESPN2 HD broadcasts at the show without end users being in the loop if I remember correctly, right? They could most possibly even rent a spot from someone else if they didn't have any open transponders.

Thanks charper1,
So they only got half of their MPEG4 decoders by mid-year & test off"rented spot beams" etc......they still need to test off Spaceway 1.
This upgrade for the 1st group of 12 markets is to happen before the NFL seasom. They need to beta test the Spaceway1 with the half of of the order of the MPEG4 decoders & the HD-DVR's, HD-STB's, & the SD-STB's......any issues have to be addressed & then the STB's manufactured, shipped.....Spaceway 1 maybe now is in location........how can the 1st group (remember, over 30% of the HD users) get HD-DVR's by a 1 1/2 months....that is my question.
Can they R&D the STB's, manufacture, & ship all the STB's in a month & half? plus manufacture all the LNB's, dishes, & mounts......

I find it hard to do this........please prove me wrong.......& also offer a bunch of National HD feeds. They just now filed with the FCC about the charges for In-HD (they should have done this years ago)......DISH folks are still waiting on the sale of Rainbow1............

I just say, hope I'm wrong my friends, but I think its going to be longer that what is rumored.

Please, D*, prove me wrong.......

Barney

 

[Alan Gordon]

This upgrade for the 1st group of 12 markets is to happen before the NFL seasom.

CSRs have been informed that the launch date for the first 12 markets will be late 2005... with additional cities to follow in 2006 and 2007 due to the delay of SpaceWay-2.

Spaceway 1 maybe now is in location

Doubtful...

how can the 1st group (remember, over 30% of the HD users) get HD-DVR's by a 1 1/2 months....that is my question.

Basically, word is that there won't be an HD-DVR until either December 2005, or January 2006. Also of note, is that while rumors have guessed that there will be an HD-DVR made by NDS, Dan Collins has stated that the only HD-DVR he has been informed of is the HMC, and that the only mention of NDS's DVR is strictly SD (though it will be MPEG4 capable).

I just say, hope I'm wrong my friends, but I think its going to be longer that what is rumored.

I agree, but I suspect that it will be at least October, November or December before we see anything happen.

~Alan

 

[Barney]

CSRs have been informed that the launch date for the first 12 markets will be late 2005... with additional cities to follow in 2006 and 2007 due to the delay of SpaceWay-2.



Doubtful...



Basically, word is that there won't be an HD-DVR until either December 2005, or January 2006. Also of note, is that while rumors have guessed that there will be an HD-DVR made by NDS, Dan Collins has stated that the only HD-DVR he has been informed of is the HMC, and that the only mention of NDS's DVR is strictly SD (though it will be MPEG4 capable).



I agree, but I suspect that it will be at least October, November or December before we see anything happen.

~Alan

Or even sometime next year.....thats just for the 1st group! I'm #54...imagine folks that are # 125...........I'll be retired by then.......how long do our HDTV's suppost to last..10-15 yrs.......I'm almost afraid, by the time D* does this...the phone companys with fiber optics will be kicking thier butts....imaging...D* is just a program providered for Verison......300 shopping channels......... :shocked

Barney

 

[Barney]

Okay gang, here is what COF (Crazy Old Fart-the engineer I have been discussing) says about the MPEG4 decorders on the mentioned order:
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One of the IPTV labs I visit regularly has 48 of those encoders. They are running full-bore, balls-to-the-wall, to the point of overheating regularly and still can only produce fully realized HD signal at about 14Mbps. The service providers need to get it down to about 8 or 9Mbps to meet the quality requirements expected by the future providers of IPTV. The satellite community needs a lower bitrate to remain competitive with the bandwidth they have for their customers. However, if the satellite content providers want to offer full quality HD signals, they need to allow for at least 14Mbps per channel, even with the newest MPEG-4 encoders. This will improve with the development of more advance encoder chips from Tandberg and others.

All of that only applies to live feed content (live events like concerts, news, sports, and such). For pre-encoded content like movies and TV shows, non-linear encoders can be used to generate a very smooth and high quality MPEG-4 HD signal at 7 to 9Mbps.

These issues are all about bandwidth, live content, and performance.

He also states:

My customer is the primary developer/integrator for IPTV in the world and I am supporting their lab work. We have regular meetings to discuss the status if the roll-out of the new technology, which involved all the same stuff as all the other HD providers. At those meetings are representatives from all the major hardware and backend software players (except a few competitors). So, I get weekly updates on this stuff from the perspective of the IPTV camp. The only thing I don't have insight into the actual market plans for the satellite and cable providers. I can assume their capabilities based on the hardware being developed, but that's it.

*******************************************************
If anyone is interested, here's the link to this post over at S&V....

S&V forum

Scott is a member there.......

Its going to be awhile folks..........

Barney

 

[satjay]

HD Question

So as someone who has HD thru comcast but is looking to switch back to directv for the upcoming NFL season, what is the best thing to do wait, or get the current HD package thru d tv and hope that my 300.00 does not burn away when the new HD upgrade comes and hope they provide a deal when the upgrade actually does come thru....Oh If I do switch are those HD set top antennas good for HD, I hate the fact that if I switch I have to have an antenna to watch locals!!! in HD

 

[Alan Gordon]

Or even sometime next year.....thats just for the 1st group! I'm #54...imagine folks that are # 125...........I'll be retired by then.......how long do our HDTV's suppost to last..10-15 yrs.......I'm almost afraid, by the time D* does this...the phone companys with fiber optics will be kicking thier butts....imaging...D* is just a program providered for Verison......300 shopping channels......... :shocked

I'm in DMA #147, and still waiting on SD-LIL... interestingly enough, the next county over from me is DMA #125 (also still waiting on SD-LIL).

However, a year or two ago, DirecTV stated that they would have all 210 DMAs LIL up by 2006, no later than 2008. Some people believe that they will never finish up the other markets with SD-LIL, and that people in those markets will have to watch either HD-LIL, or downrezzed HD-LIL. I personally believe they will have all 210 DMA's SD-LIL and HD-LIL finished up during the year 2007. I guess we will see...

~Alan

 

[Barney]

This is a copy of a post about what Robert said:
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Some new info from Robert at tivocommunity.com from yesterday:

"....A soft rollout of MPEG-4 equipment will be upgraded in late 2005, however, the HMC and MPEG-4 HD DVR will not likely be available until late December 2005 or January 2006. So your dish and any HD STB's you may have will be upgraded but you will have to wait for the new HD DVR a short while....

-Robert"
*******************************************************
Gang its going to be awhile............a long while.........year or more for me..

Barney

Me & family already miss what little programing D* offers.....Son is watching PBS (he's 5 years old)....starts school next month.......its OTA for me for a long time.

 

[Skyboss]

I'm thinking we'll see this channel too!

OLN2 HD Saw an add for it recently....

 

[auribe14]

OLN and Outdoor Network are two different channels, BTW. Apparently, there is a trial for Outdoor Network HD somewhere in PA, haven't heard a thing about OLN.