MPEG4 HD DVR and Home Media Center news:

[LonghornXP]

I'll agree with you that cable appears to be in the lead, but as you said in your prior post, they're about to roll it out, doesn't sound like you can order it now.

Comcast is also working on a Motorola solution, SBC's working on a 2Wire solution and D*'s got theirs (haven't heard much about E*'s plans). And if you buy into LonghornXP's posts, D*'s plans for early next year is to go to a rent/lease model like cable, but he's saying that at the end of 2 years the box is yours. Cable will also be more like DBS since with the continuing migration to all digital you'll need to start paying for a STB rental fee for all those sets you have now that are using their analog tuner without a box. IMHO, give them all a year or two and they'll basically all look the same from channel selection and features, LonghornXP has even posted that D* has plans to be able to offer VOD just like cable does now (which is a really neat feature).

Nobody has to buy into the chance that they will rent/lease the boxes because they have said this in several meetings and conference calls. Now the rent to own aspect after two years hasn't been said in public by DirecTV so I guess you all do need to buy into that for now. Also true VOD will be quite a bit down the line now but they will offer VOD with content that will be downloaded to the hard drive in the same way that the Starz ON Demand service works today. Before they go true VOD they will have an inbetween option for customers with a high speed internet connection. They do have plans at some point to offer Starz On Demand, HBO ON Demand, Showtime On Demand, Cinemax On Demand, Encore On Demand and TMC On Demand for customers who have their DirecTV branded DVRs (no Tivo support) "and" high speed internet connections. This will take a little bit of time because DirecTV has to work with HBO, Showtime and such to get the files in the WMV DRM file format. Starz has this done today and DirecTV plans to add a user interface for the Starz Ticket service. This service would be 100% free for DirecTV Starz SuperPak customers and it doesn't require a computer just a high speed internet connection. They are also working with Starz about the option of Starz providing movies in WMV HD with WMAPro 5.1 for customers with the upcoming DirecTV branded HD DVR and the HMC Server or for the HMC HD client boxes. DirecTV will have software to accept the WMAPro 5.1 and send it out as a PCM 5.1 signal so all receivers that have a Dolby Digital 5.1 decoder can get 5.1 surround sound. Just to make sure you know that your receiver doesn't need to support decoding of WMAPro 5.1 surround.

I hope this gives you an idea of what is coming. Also the non HD movies are also planned to be encoded in WMAPro 5.1 so this same conversion can be done for these movies.

So you have got some very interesting information about what is coming our ways at some point in time until full two-way ability is worked out via satellite .

 

[JosephB]

Full two way for TV service on DirecTV is probably never going to happen. Do you realize how much money the equipment would cost? How much bandwidth that would waste? Every single installation would have to be professionally done (by law, the FCC will not allow an unlicensed installer install a dish that has a transmitter). And where did you hear about all this two way WMA stuff? This is the first I've heard mention of this anywhere. No offense LonghornXP, but I'm gonna need some coroboration(sp?) on some of this stuff (and it seems more and more stuff you post lately) before I can believe it.

 

[LonghornXP]

Full two way for TV service on DirecTV is probably never going to happen. Do you realize how much money the equipment would cost? How much bandwidth that would waste? Every single installation would have to be professionally done (by law, the FCC will not allow an unlicensed installer install a dish that has a transmitter). And where did you hear about all this two way WMA stuff? This is the first I've heard mention of this anywhere. No offense LonghornXP, but I'm gonna need some coroboration(sp?) on some of this stuff (and it seems more and more stuff you post lately) before I can believe it.

Actually all the two-way stuff will be done in the future and once that occurs the VOD wouldn't be in WMA format but in the same format that the cable companies get it. Now the whole WMA stuff is for DirecTVs plans to offer VOD services to customers with DVR boxes who have the boxes connected to a high speed internet connection. The user interface would be setup so they can sign up for the VOD services and it would run a test which simply connects to the internet and checks the bandwidth speed of the customers internet connection.

If you check out the Starz website and you order the Starz Ticket service those files are in WMV file format because they are protected with Microsoft's DRM. This can also be done with an HD transfer using WMV HD. They can also have 5.1 surround sound using WMAPro 5.1. A single WMV file could contain video in the WMV HD format with audio in the WMAPro 5.1 format.

DirecTV will start out by creating a GUI channel that ties into the Starz Ticket service. DirecTV can block this channel for non Starz customers. If you order Starz SuperPak from DirecTV this new channel would become active and that would allow you to view the exact listing of movies available on Starz Ticket. Once you pick your movie it will be downloaded over "your" high speed internet connection to the DVRs hard drive and playback will start in most cases within a minute. It will stay downloaded on the hard drive for 24 hours.

Besides Starz On Demand on DirecTV via Starz Ticket DirecTV also is working with HBO, Cinemax, Showtime and TMC for something similiar. I happen to know for a fact that for DirecTV to compete with cable and telco companies they are willing to pay for all the encoding and DRM work that HBO would need to have done plus they would pay to host the files so HBO for example doesn't have to pay for the bandwidth to serve all of these files. If this ended up being the case they most likely would charge 6 or so bucks a month to get access to all the ON Demand content for the premium channels you order. This would be the same as what TWC does for example.

But rest assured that this is being worked on. Also depending on how talks go DirecTV Total Choice premier customers might very well get access in the future to a full yahoo music unlimited subscription that can be used with computers, portable music players and your DirecTV DVR boxes. Imagine for a second that you could stream all the music you want on your DirecTV DVR boxes. Now add the ability to download the songs onto the DVRs hard drive. Now think about the ability to plug in your portable music player into the DVRs USB port and transfer those downloaded songs to the player without paying anything. Now the only question now is if DirecTV will partner with Rhapsody, Napster or Yahoo but it seems so far that Yahoo has been giving the best deal thus far to DirecTV.

Just because you haven't heard about this stuff doesn't mean others don't. Some things will be scrapped while others will soon be features. Some features could be short term while others could be long term. Some features could also be put on the back burner for various reasons.

 

[DixonJDixon]

When When When When When When When When?

When will we see either the HD-DVR or the HMC? Are they just vaporware?

 

[LonghornXP]

When will we see either the HD-DVR or the HMC? Are they just vaporware?

HD DVR most likely in January (looking very good) and the HMC looks like late first quarter or early to mid second quarter.

 

[JosephB]

Are you still sticking to your prediction that they will have two way via satellite? Two way over high speed internet is feasible, but when all the RBOCs are doing TV over their DSL/fiber lines DirecTV won't have any partners left for high-speed internet access. They may do it far into the future, but it doesn't seem like something they'd do..tie one of their products into relying on someone else's service. But, its certainly more feasible than every single customer having two way over satellite. I wouldn't expect to see that in a million years.

 

[LonghornXP]

Are you still sticking to your prediction that they will have two way via satellite? Two way over high speed internet is feasible, but when all the RBOCs are doing TV over their DSL/fiber lines DirecTV won't have any partners left for high-speed internet access. They may do it far into the future, but it doesn't seem like something they'd do..tie one of their products into relying on someone else's service. But, its certainly more feasible than every single customer having two way over satellite. I wouldn't expect to see that in a million years.

That is what they must do for now. They do have plans in the future to launch another new satellite to offer high speed internet service and two-way VOD services but that is more along the lines of 2008+. I have no doubts that Telco and Cable companies will have a very nice lead but they can still blow things like they have done for many many years.

 

[vurbano]

The E* solution isn't really "multi-room" it's "multi-out". Yes, it can output 2 distinct signals simutaneously, but only from the same physical box, with a single connection. Not even remotely close to what we're talking about with the HMC, Tivo MVR, etc.

Thats the whole thing at this point. The D* HMC is just talk. Compare it when or if its ever a reality.

 

[JosephB]

That is what they must do for now. They do have plans in the future to launch another new satellite to offer high speed internet service and two-way VOD services but that is more along the lines of 2008+. I have no doubts that Telco and Cable companies will have a very nice lead but they can still blow things like they have done for many many years.

Huh? DirecTV has scrapped their plans for Spaceway internet access. Thats what the new sats they're launching now were for, but now we know they are doing HD LiL instead of two way service. Internet service through DirecTV has already been scrapped, and they are focusing on TV instead of internet service. They even sold their remaining stake in HNS (parent of Direcway), so why would they go back into a business they've done so much to get out of?

 

[Skyboss]

Sorry, that's not possible -- there is exists no physics to support what you described. There was something else going on that is not in your description. I'm an RFIC Research Scientist, with extensive satellite experience, and competent to call you on this one.

Unless of course you fail to consider that Spaceway was originally designed as a two way system and that the extraction of information is possible because of this. Who says they didn't leave a 1.5mbps uplink or two active for this specific purpose. It's not rocket science.

Yes, the birds were re-configured for power balancing, but that didn't change the basic system premise. The new MPEG-4 boxes are nothing more than an Internet Terminal reading data. Stop thinking old school Satellite and start thinking Video over DSL, but space based.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/spaceway/spaceway.html

What? You thought "ReThink TV" meant rethinking HD??? Directv has done in a year with Spaceway what the phone companies haven't been able to solve in 5 years.

On the HMC issue... Sounds nice, but to me if the Networking option via USB 2.0 to Ethernet is going to be available on the DVR's, I'll go that route. 2-3 250GB units in the house would do just fine. I have a Giganet switch I use with ample bandwidth. The only loss I see would be media file sharing, but perhaps that won't be missing. Seems to be the trend in new devices... I.E... X-Box 360 at al.

 

[LonghornXP]

Huh? DirecTV has scrapped their plans for Spaceway internet access. Thats what the new sats they're launching now were for, but now we know they are doing HD LiL instead of two way service. Internet service through DirecTV has already been scrapped, and they are focusing on TV instead of internet service. They even sold their remaining stake in HNS (parent of Direcway), so why would they go back into a business they've done so much to get out of?

For all of the money they spent on these satellites they felt it would be better used for HDTV services. That doesn't mean that after that they won't look again at another satellite for high speed internet services plus VOD services. They know they will need to compete with all of these bundled offerings and they also know that the telcos won't be partnering with them anymore so in the long term future they will need that last piece of the puzzle to compete.

 

[houselog442]

I think directv would probably like to limit the phone line hookup thing because if anyone who has lived in florida knows (i lived there for 5 years) that in the summer time there, we have the wet season; and we get horrible cloud to ground thunderstorms everyday, and anything hooked to a phone line is extremely vulnerable since phone lines are underground, that a lightning strike will easily fry a pc modem, a telephone, and a directv reciever. With the insurence plans, that are pretty much a high need for people in florida i bet that directv and stores like circuit city and best buy have about had it with having to replace those recievers all the time from lightning strikes.

 

[JosephB]

The sheer number of subscribers though would overload the spaceway satellites very very quickly. Plus, they'd have to launch new satellites to replace the capacity they'd lose when they switch spaceway to two-way data downloads. Also, how much money would all those ground stations cost? An enormous amount. All installs would have to be done professionally. It would actually be illegal for someone to do a self-install.

And to think they would do all this to prevent boxes from getting zapped by lightning..most of the lightning surges probably don't come from the phone line, but even if they do, DirecTV is not responsible for replacing them anyway.

2wire had a solution for this using DSL (their products are targeted towards RBOCs). The first solution was TV over satellite and their box would be a reciever and router. Then the next generation would be TV over satellite and upstream using DSL. Then the 3rd generation was total IPTV and cut the satellite out of the equation. Do you think DirecTV or Dish would sign on for that? Get used only to be thrown to the dogs later? I doubt it.

 

[Skyboss]

The sheer number of subscribers though would overload the spaceway satellites very very quickly. Plus, they'd have to launch new satellites to replace the capacity they'd lose when they switch spaceway to two-way data downloads. Also, how much money would all those ground stations cost? An enormous amount. All installs would have to be done professionally. It would actually be illegal for someone to do a self-install.

You only need one or two open uplinks to pool the dishes. We're not talking about an entire system with massive amounts of data flowing up from each home. Were talking about a 20K data packet going up on a 1.5MBPS feed. As for "downloads"... Spaceway is really nothing more than a DirecTV LAN for television.

All installs on the MPEG-4 system do require professional installation. Or did you miss that too?

Quit trying to make more out of this than it really is. Think... Internet.

 

[tibber]

Guys,

I'm trying to bend my mind into some method of a two-way for everyone, with the current birds, current dishes, etc. Here is my analysis of what i'm seeing today:

1) The two Spaceway birds are capable of bidirectional data, and likely could handle the entire load for VOD, daily and monthly data uploads, etc.

2) The AT9 dish does not REQUIRE a professional install. After doing my own BUD and aligning the screw arm that moved the dish thru the geo sat line, this is basically nothing. I just don't have the signal meter to do precise alignment. And the dealers are not requiring professional installs.

3) The AT9 dish does not look like it has any transmitting cabability. While the triple LNB for birds 99, 101, and 103 is oversized, it sure doesn't look oversized enough for bidirectional data. I am willing to be corrected, but it sure doesn't look like it.

4) If the AT9 did transmit, wouldn't there be all kinds of extra FCC required stickers about frequency, license, etc.?

Anyone have updates/corrections/thoughts?

Cheers,
Tom

 

[JosephB]

the two spaceway satellites are designed for two way internet service, but not for 15 million subscribers. There is no way that the two satellites could handle every single DirecTV customer current and future uploading all of their PPV data and sending VOD requests. Also, once you start doing two way stuff then you are going to use all of the downstream capacity for sending the stuff that customers request. What's the point of two-way data if you have to wait for your request to be filled on a single channel? To send a VOD movie so that is is really VOD and not just PPVon demand you need MORE bandwidth than a normal channel (because you need to send the entire show in a few seconds/minute instead of over the entire running time of the show). That would eliminate spaceway for HD LiL usage.

Also, the so-called mpeg4 dish (there's no such thing..mpeg4 is in the domain of the receiver, the dish has nothing to do with it..the dish is Ka/Ku, not mpeg2/4) does NOT require BY LAW professional installation. If I go and buy the dish I can install it myself. You CAN NOT go and buy a two-way DirecWay system and install it yourself unless you are licensed by the FCC. That is what would be required if every dish were two way.

And as far as "one or two open uplinks" for pooling all the customers..bandwidth aside, you can't have 15 million people uploading to one or two transponders. Bandwidth wouldn't be an issue..frequency allocation would be. There just isn't enough space in the spectrum they have allocated to handle that much traffic. Spaceway wasn't designed to have 15 million people using it. Hell, Bellsouth doesn't even have 15 million DSL users!

I'm not trying to say everything LonghornXP says is wrong, but you guys don't need to gulp down the kool-aid either. Several things LonghornXP has posted has been wrong (and alot of stuff has been right). I'm just saying this is very very pie in the sky and while it may be stuff talked about in meetings about concepts of where to go, I highly doubt there are any serious plans to do this anytime in the next 10 years.

 

[LonghornXP]

the two spaceway satellites are designed for two way internet service, but not for 15 million subscribers. There is no way that the two satellites could handle every single DirecTV customer current and future uploading all of their PPV data and sending VOD requests. Also, once you start doing two way stuff then you are going to use all of the downstream capacity for sending the stuff that customers request. What's the point of two-way data if you have to wait for your request to be filled on a single channel? To send a VOD movie so that is is really VOD and not just PPVon demand you need MORE bandwidth than a normal channel (because you need to send the entire show in a few seconds/minute instead of over the entire running time of the show). That would eliminate spaceway for HD LiL usage.

Also, the so-called mpeg4 dish (there's no such thing..mpeg4 is in the domain of the receiver, the dish has nothing to do with it..the dish is Ka/Ku, not mpeg2/4) does NOT require BY LAW professional installation. If I go and buy the dish I can install it myself. You CAN NOT go and buy a two-way DirecWay system and install it yourself unless you are licensed by the FCC. That is what would be required if every dish were two way.

And as far as "one or two open uplinks" for pooling all the customers..bandwidth aside, you can't have 15 million people uploading to one or two transponders. Bandwidth wouldn't be an issue..frequency allocation would be. There just isn't enough space in the spectrum they have allocated to handle that much traffic. Spaceway wasn't designed to have 15 million people using it. Hell, Bellsouth doesn't even have 15 million DSL users!

I'm not trying to say everything LonghornXP says is wrong, but you guys don't need to gulp down the kool-aid either. Several things LonghornXP has posted has been wrong (and alot of stuff has been right). I'm just saying this is very very pie in the sky and while it may be stuff talked about in meetings about concepts of where to go, I highly doubt there are any serious plans to do this anytime in the next 10 years.

Haven't I clearly said that in the future they would put up another new satellite for internet and VOD use. When I was told that DirecTV wasn't interested in offering high speed internet service because they switched over the spaceway satellites into video satellites by another poster I in turn answered the reason. Like I said in one of my earlier posts DirecTV at the time they started having these satellites being built the HSI market burst open with cheap DSL alternatives that made things much different. Now for all the money DirecTV spent expecting prices to say around 40 bucks a month they now have DSL companies offering high speed internet services for 25 bucks or less per month. Now they offer internet for 15 bucks a month with cable prices dropping and speeds increasing. Now they have fiber from telcos coming into play. This changed everything after the satellites have started to be built and they couldn't just cancel the order now. So D* looked at these satellites to see what could be done and it seems that HD LIL was one option that they also needed to compete now as well.

We must remember that all of this isn't as simple as some of you think and many months of planning must be done and things can change in the two years since a satellite is ordered and ready to launch. With all of that said because the telco companies are closing off their systems via fiber they know they will have zero chance of partnering with them now for internet because the telcos will bundle their internet service now with their TV service. Cable companies will do the same. DirecTV also knows they must at some point offer VOD services and true VOD. So as of now the long term project for DirecTV will be to launch new satellites in addition to the four total satellites being used for the new HDTV plans. These new satellites of course will offer both high speed internet service and VOD services for all DirecTV customers. DirecTV also has plans to offer phone service as well from these satellites using VOIP. They also see the need for the triple play bundle. They also will be putting an order in for the making of a new six LNB two-way DirectWay type dish that can be used for all DirecTV services including VOIP phone service, high speed internet service, TV service and VOD service offerings.

Now again this is a long term plan to might not occur until 2010 but DirecTV cannot do this any quicker than that and its better to have these offerings in 2010 than never at all. DirecTV just won't take the attitude that if they can't get this going before FIOS gets going than why bother. Things will be changing just as Verizon FIOS will change how customers view their current companies. Lets not forget that many many customers with Verizon might not see FIOS service of any kind until close to 2010 so DirecTV could still have plenty of time to get this going and take customers.

 

[JosephB]

You can't do VoIP over satellite, there's a 1 second lag, unless they plan to do LEO. If they do that THEN its all feasible, but then it will be extremely expensive. Its even going to be expensive if they do it using current technology. Also, a single 6 LNB dish won't be able to handle internet traffic for every single DirecTV user because there will NEVER be enough bandwidth at one slot, even with spotbeams, for DirecTV to offer a competitive internet service with VoIP. Just because DirecTV "wants" to do all this doesn't mean they can or will.

Where does all this information come from? Is it from product development meetings or strategy meetings or what? These are all grand visions of stuff that I'm sure they'd love to do, but just because they'd love to do it doesn't mean they will, or that they even expect to be able to. Heck, I'd love to marry a movie star and never have to work again in my life. Now, just because I said it doesn't mean I actually have a plan that will move me towards that goal, and doesn't mean I expect to be able to do that. If this is 2nd or 3rd hand information from some random meeting at DirecTV offices, I don't know if I'd take this literally or not.

I'd like to see someone chime in (like dan from dbsforums) who has some technical background who could say with SOME authority how feasible all this stuff is.

 

[k2ue]

I'd like to see someone chime in (like dan from dbsforums) who has some technical background who could say with SOME authority how feasible all this stuff is.

I've called him in the past on some of his fantasies, but many of the forum denizens love the "inside" yarns more than reality, so the truth gets a poorer reception than wild speculation. NFW anybody running a company would actually allow leakage of future competitive plans.

 

[LonghornXP]

I've called him in the past on some of his fantasies, but many of the forum denizens love the "inside" yarns more than reality, so the truth gets a poorer reception than wild speculation. NFW anybody running a company would actually allow leakage of future competitive plans.

You would be amazed at what the newest satellites can do when it comes to internet service. I'm not saying they will use the satellites that are planned now for HDTV but launching another one of these and using it for high speed internet is quite the solution. As with anything not all customers will order high speed internet but with another new satellite that like the spaceways can create tons and tons of spotbeams on the fly you would be shocked at how fast the speeds would be and how many customers just the one satellite could serve. But as with anything they can't spend 800 million on a new satellite just to offer internet service at no less than 40 bucks a month when both cable and telco companies can undercut you with ease and still make a profit. That was the problem before because they at that time had no other extra revenue they could get from that 800 million satellite that couldn't compete for customers when launched. Things have changed quite a bit in the two years these plans were drawn up.

From what I've heard is that only customers who order DirecTV TV services can get access to order the high speed internet service and the price would be a bundled price.

So if they can add 35 bucks a month to a customers TV bill for the internet service plus add another 7 bucks a month to that customers bill for VOD content from the premium channels that would be worth it to cover the cost within reason of the new satellite. It would also limit the amount of customers who would order the internet service plus it would greatly reduce churn because again they will have a bundled price plus VOD. For the most part this service offering would be catered for customers who are in more rural areas who won't be getting fiber anytime soon and also will never have decent cable service if they have it at all. They feel that most customers who have cable or telco fiber services available would pick them for the TV service only and would pick another provider for internet service. Now these customers would also get the new dish which would allow them to get true VOD offerings.

Now I don't expect you to always agree with me and yes things could change and I'm sure that somebody like Dan or KenH could give a thumbs up on the ability of the newer satellites available as far as what they can do today that could never be done four years ago. As you have said the system does have limits in how many customers it can serve but its quite a bit more than you might think. My guess from what I've been told is that the one satellite if used for 15Mbps down/1Mbps Up internet service can serve just around 50% of all of the DirecTV customers. The satellites can also cover all of the current customers with one or more premium channel plus quite a bit more as well. Now if they didn't do VOD at all they could cover about 75% of customers with high speed internet. If they gave every customer and every box full VOD access they could only cover around 30% of customers with high speed internet. They do have limits but they to conserve bandwidth will only offer premium channels on demand. PPV movies on demand will be stored on hard drives of their DVR products which will be required to get PPV VOD movies. So limit the VOD bandwidth to just premium movie channel customers who pay extra per month for VOD access and that would allow many more customers to be serviced for high speed internet service. If they have a big surge and demand they would have a very good incentive to launch another satellite to service these customers in the future but they just don't see that occuring at all.