Max. cable lengths...HDMI vs Component

Just pointing

Congratulations on posting a link to where a bunch of unqualified, uneducated (in regards to the technology) are disputing the validity of claims made by many cable manufacturers.

1080i, while much larger than 480p in the volume of data sent from component to TV, it's certainly not going to stop there. Even HD content is still shot at 24FPS. However, for gamers, a video game can be put out in higher resolutions than 1080P with a refresh rate of 120hz and 16 bit color. The average HDMI cable would not be able to handle that much throughput without collisions, reflections and other losses/corruption of data. That is where the GBPS rating comes into play. The more Gigabits of data a cable can pass per second, the better your end result (TV pic and audio) will be.

You can take 8-conductor bell wire and put RJ45 connectors on it, but that won't make it a cat5 or cat6 cable.

If you don't like Monster, then there are other certified cables out there. There's a few companies that certify HDMI cables, just look for the cables that have have been independently tested and you'll have less problems. Although there isn't any broadcast content that is pushing 1080x1920x120hz, cables that can push that level of data will have no problem passing a Dishnet or DirecTV receiver's signal.

I'm just pointing out that you are using a Monster promo as fact. I don't buy Monster for the reason I stated: It's mark up is 300%. If someone wants to pay that kind of mark up that is up to them. You are correct that taking 8 conductor bell & put RJ45 connectors on it and it isn't cat 5. The reason is that bell wire isn't twisted pairs that cancels out noise. That's why I would never suggest one do that. That has nothing to do with the fact that 2 cables w/ the same AWG are going to do the same thing: that's engineering 101.
 
I'm just pointing out that you are using a Monster promo as fact. I don't buy Monster for the reason I stated: It's mark up is 300%. If someone wants to pay that kind of mark up that is up to them. You are correct that taking 8 conductor bell & put RJ45 connectors on it and it isn't cat 5. The reason is that bell wire isn't twisted pairs that cancels out noise. That's why I would never suggest one do that. That has nothing to do with the fact that 2 cables w/ the same AWG are going to do the same thing: that's engineering 101.

You assume that all copper is the same. Some of those cheaper cables use weaker grades of copper that has other particles such as other metals, oxygen, etc. that change the signal properties of the conductor. An air bubble only a few atoms wide can impact signal characteristics. So can a small piece of slag somewhere in the copper.

Consider two gold ingots. Both appear to be the same size and weight and therefore one might assume they are equal. However, a .999 fine ingot would be worth more than a .99 fine ingot. The difference is the amount of other undesirable elements and copper is subject to the same characteristics.

The other thing that makes a huge difference is the termination of the conductors. A cheaply made cable could have poor terminations that damage the signal. Once a signal is put off the correct wavelength it can reflect all over the place and collide with other signals and in the worst cases, degrade the signal so much that the picture and sound is rendered useless.

As far as HDMI cable goes, 1080i really doesn't pose much load in terms of actual throughput on the cable. However, once you start running more data-intense applications like 1080P, higher refresh rates like 120hz, 12bit color instead of 8bit color, the volume of data pushed through that cable goes up and the error counts go up with it. Errors have a more catastrophic effect as data rates increase. Imagine a crash on a fast-moving busy freeway versus a crash on a side street. Which one ends up taking out the most cars?

The volume of lost data on a cheap HDMI on a typical 1080i application probably isn't enough for most people to notice. That doesn't mean the lost data isn't occurring. Dish and Direct both do plenty to reduce the quality of the HD picture, no need to let cabling help them with that.
 
However, once you start running more data-intense applications like 1080P, higher refresh rates like 120hz, 12bit color instead of 8bit color, the volume of data pushed through that cable goes up and the error counts go up with it.

But 1080p, 120hz and 12bit color is well beyond the bandwidth for anything HD these days. If you buy a cable with these specs you are paying for something you will not use. Over engineered.
 
Interesting comments. It appears those who bought Monster cables are trying to justify the expense to at least themselves.
I've yet to find anything from outside research that says the really expensive cables are better or necessary.
 
Interesting comments. It appears those who bought Monster cables are trying to justify the expense to at least themselves.
I've yet to find anything from outside research that says the really expensive cables are better or necessary.

Nope, I just sell them. No HD in this house.
 
I sell the $9 ones too. I just show them the picture on both cables and explain the speed ratings. Some buy, some don't. Most agree that the Monster cables have better picture. Most of the ones I install though don't get hooked up to satellite receivers, they get hooked to the PS3 or B-Ray. Dish and DirecTV's HD is inherently crappy enough to begin with. That's why places like UE will use alternative sources like a looped B-Ray or HD-DVD for their displays.
 
I sell the $9 ones too. I just show them the picture on both cables and explain the speed ratings. Some buy, some don't. Most agree that the Monster cables have better picture. Most of the ones I install though don't get hooked up to satellite receivers, they get hooked to the PS3 or B-Ray. Dish and DirecTV's HD is inherently crappy enough to begin with. That's why places like UE will use alternative sources like a looped B-Ray or HD-DVD for their displays.

Show them the picture without getting into the "speed ratings" and see which one is better. The brain is easily influenced. :)

We are obviously on opposite sides to this matter, but I have an open mind and if you can provide links to any data or studies showing the $100 cable is better than the $10 I'd gladly read it.
 
Monster cables may perform better than cheap little thin throw away cables because they are a much heavier gauge wire and use quality interconnects. They just aren't worth 25 times what you would pay for an equivalent monoprice.com or bluejeanscable.com cable.
 
Show them the picture without getting into the "speed ratings" and see which one is better. The brain is easily influenced. :)

We are obviously on opposite sides to this matter, but I have an open mind and if you can provide links to any data or studies showing the $100 cable is better than the $10 I'd gladly read it.

There are independent labs that certify HDMI cables. I notice that Monoprice doesn't carry any branding from any independent testing laboratories. They mention Category 2 certification but they are not showing any branding by HDMI Licensing, LLC, the creators of the HDMI 1.3 certification. Funny thing is though, Monoprice's explanation of the Category 2 certification (Question: What is category 2?) is copied verbatim from HDMI Licensing's own Trademark and Logo Usage PDF document (bottom of page 2). I find it odd that they would plagiarize HDMI Licensing's document but don't have their trademark branding on their products. I see nothing on Monoprice's website to say they have license with HDMI Licensing. If their cables are certified by HDMI Licensing, why not advertise the endorsement?

I think I will contact monoprice and ask them for their compliance certificates, if they have any.

Blue Jeans advertises they have a compliance certificate under 1.3a for a 45 foot cable, so it would appear their cables ought to be good. They also discuss the "eye pattern" test that I linked with the Monster link.
 
There are independent labs that certify HDMI cables. I notice that Monoprice doesn't carry any branding from any independent testing laboratories. They mention Category 2 certification but they are not showing any branding by HDMI Licensing, LLC, the creators of the HDMI 1.3 certification. Funny thing is though, Monoprice's explanation of the Category 2 certification (Question: What is category 2?) is copied verbatim from HDMI Licensing's own Trademark and Logo Usage PDF document (bottom of page 2). I find it odd that they would plagiarize HDMI Licensing's document but don't have their trademark branding on their products. I see nothing on Monoprice's website to say they have license with HDMI Licensing. If their cables are certified by HDMI Licensing, why not advertise the endorsement?

I think I will contact monoprice and ask them for their compliance certificates, if they have any.

Blue Jeans advertises they have a compliance certificate under 1.3a for a 45 foot cable, so it would appear their cables ought to be good. They also discuss the "eye pattern" test that I linked with the Monster link.

You have to pay to use the logos, but those logos don't mean anything other than they approved of your certification method. Just like the ADA label on toothpaste.
 
You have to pay to use the logos, but those logos don't mean anything other than they approved of your certification method. Just like the ADA label on toothpaste.

Actually, HDMI licensing has labs that do the testing. You send the cable to the lab, if it passes, they issue you the certificate.

Prior to mass producing or distributing any Licensed Product or component that claims compliance with the HDMI Specification (or allowing someone else to do such activities), each Adopter must test a representative sample for HDMI compliance. First, the Adopter must self-test as specified in the then-current HDMI Compliance Test Specification. The HDMI Compliance Test Specification provides a suite of testing procedures, and establishes certain minimum requirements specifying how each HDMI Adopter should test Licensed Products for conformance to the HDMI Specification. Such compliance testing is limited to evaluation of a product’s compliance with the HDMI Specification and is not designed to test the overall performance of any Licensed Product.


Second, each Adopter must submit the first product of each Licensed Product type (i.e. source, sink, repeater, or cable) to an HDMI Authorized Testing Center (ATC) for testing. Once an Adopter product of each type has passed testing, it is not required to submit to the ATC subsequent products of that type. For example, once an Adopter’s television has passed ATC testing, it is not required to submit another television or other display for ATC testing. However, to help ensure HDMI interoperability, we encourage Adopters to use the ATCs.


The HDMI Compliance Test Specification represents the minimum compliance testing required for Licensed Products. Successful completion of the Compliance Test Specification or ATC Testing does not guarantee that any product will conform to the High-Definition Multimedia Interfaces, function correctly or interoperate with any other product. Each Adopter is solely responsible for ensuring that its products function correctly, fully comply with the HDMI Specification and Adopter Agreement, and interoperate with other products.
For more information, or to facilitate testing exercises, the following documents are available for download in .pdf format.

SOURCE
 
So sorry

You assume that all copper is the same. Some of those cheaper cables use weaker grades of copper that has other particles such as other metals, oxygen, etc. that change the signal properties of the conductor. An air bubble only a few atoms wide can impact signal characteristics. So can a small piece of slag somewhere in the copper.

Consider two gold ingots. Both appear to be the same size and weight and therefore one might assume they are equal. However, a .999 fine ingot would be worth more than a .99 fine ingot. The difference is the amount of other undesirable elements and copper is subject to the same characteristics.

The other thing that makes a huge difference is the termination of the conductors. A cheaply made cable could have poor terminations that damage the signal. Once a signal is put off the correct wavelength it can reflect all over the place and collide with other signals and in the worst cases, degrade the signal so much that the picture and sound is rendered useless.

As far as HDMI cable goes, 1080i really doesn't pose much load in terms of actual throughput on the cable. However, once you start running more data-intense applications like 1080P, higher refresh rates like 120hz, 12bit color instead of 8bit color, the volume of data pushed through that cable goes up and the error counts go up with it. Errors have a more catastrophic effect as data rates increase. Imagine a crash on a fast-moving busy freeway versus a crash on a side street. Which one ends up taking out the most cars?

The volume of lost data on a cheap HDMI on a typical 1080i application probably isn't enough for most people to notice. That doesn't mean the lost data isn't occurring. Dish and Direct both do plenty to reduce the quality of the HD picture, no need to let cabling help them with that.

I'm so sorry I disagreed with you since you must have a degree in SALES. I guess my degree in broadcast engineering doesn't count. Your statement above is sales pitch. Different quality of copper makes little difference since the signal travels on the skin of the cable so that is why AWG makes the difference. The only thing that can degrade the signal is corrosion on the outside of the copper which causes capacitance problems. An air void inside the copper makes no difference the signal never sees it. When you are saying termination of the cable I'm going to have to guess you mean connection quality of the wire to the connector. Termination is a different thing entirely than the build of the cable. Termination is the load that two devices are connected too. The build of the connection can only make a difference if they use low quality attachment points from cable to connector. Such as really cheap solder, lead solder that has very low amount of tin in it. Of course now we get into gold on the connectors. I borrowed the following from Wikipedia.

Electronics

Gold plating is often used in electronics, to provide a corrosion-resistant electrically conductive layer on copper, typically in electrical connectors and printed circuit boards.

With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms tend to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide and/or sulfide layer.

A layer of a suitable barrier metal, usually nickel, is usually deposited on the copper substrate before the gold plating. The layer of nickel provides mechanical backing for the gold layer, improving its wear resistance. It also reduces the impact of pores present in the gold layer.

Both the nickel and gold layers are usually deposited by electroplating. Electroless plating is used as well, however the deposited layer is unsuitable for long-term corrosion protection nor for wire bonding, as the resulting layer is typically only 97% pure and thin (0.5-0.75 µm). As the deposit is based on displacement of some of the copper, electroless nickel plating may be unsuitable for boards with very fine traces.

At higher frequencies, the skin effect may cause higher losses due to higher electrical resistance of nickel; a nickel-plated trace can have its useful length shortened three times in the 1 GHz band in comparison with the non-plated one. Selective plating is used, depositing the nickel and gold layers only on areas where it is required and does not cause the detrimental side effects.

Gold plating may lead to formation of gold whiskers.

Soldering issues

Soldering gold-plated parts can be tricky.

Gold is soluble in solder. Solder which contains more than 5% gold can become brittle. The joint surface is dull-looking.

Gold reacts with both tin and lead in their liquid state, forming brittle intermetallics. When eutectic 63% Sn - 37% Pb solder is used, no lead-gold compounds are formed, because gold preferentially reacts with tin, forming the AuSn4 compound. Particles of AuSn4 disperse in the solder matrix, forming preferential cleavage planes, significantly lowering the mechanical strength and therefore reliability of the resulting solder joints.

If the gold layer does not completely dissolve into the solder, then slow intermetallic reactions can proceed in the solid state as the tin and gold atoms cross-migrate. Intermetallics have poor electrical conductivity and low strength. The ongoing intermetallic reactions also cause Kirkendall voiding, leading to mechanical failure of the joint, similar to the degradation of gold-aluminum bonds known as purple plague.

A 2-3 µm layer of gold dissolves completely within one second during typical wave soldering conditions. Layers of gold thinner than 0.5 µm (20 microinches) also dissolve completely into the solder, exposing the underlying metal (usually nickel) to the solder. Impurities in the nickel layer can prevent the solder from bonding to it. Electroless nickel plating contains phosphorus. Nickel with more than 8% phosphorus is not solderable. Electrodeposited nickel may contain nickel hydroxide. An acid bath is required to remove the passivation layer before applying the gold layer; improper cleaning leads to a nickel surface difficult to solder. A stronger flux can help, as it aids dissolving the oxide deposits. Carbon is another nickel contaminant that hinders solderability

I hope this helps to enlighten the subject of cabling. If you can afford Monster and think it is worth 300% more then buy it , use it & be happy. If you are like most people go with work is working well at the lower price.
 
I'm so sorry I disagreed with you since you must have a degree in SALES. I guess my degree in broadcast engineering doesn't count. Your statement above is sales pitch. Different quality of copper makes little difference since the signal travels on the skin of the cable so that is why AWG makes the difference. The only thing that can degrade the signal is corrosion on the outside of the copper which causes capacitance problems. An air void inside the copper makes no difference the signal never sees it. When you are saying termination of the cable I'm going to have to guess you mean connection quality of the wire to the connector. Termination is a different thing entirely than the build of the cable. Termination is the load that two devices are connected too. The build of the connection can only make a difference if they use low quality attachment points from cable to connector. Such as really cheap solder, lead solder that has very low amount of tin in it. Of course now we get into gold on the connectors. I borrowed the following from Wikipedia.

Electronics

Gold plating is often used in electronics, to provide a corrosion-resistant electrically conductive layer on copper, typically in electrical connectors and printed circuit boards.

With direct gold-on-copper plating, the copper atoms tend to diffuse through the gold layer, causing tarnishing of its surface and formation of an oxide and/or sulfide layer.

A layer of a suitable barrier metal, usually nickel, is usually deposited on the copper substrate before the gold plating. The layer of nickel provides mechanical backing for the gold layer, improving its wear resistance. It also reduces the impact of pores present in the gold layer.

Both the nickel and gold layers are usually deposited by electroplating. Electroless plating is used as well, however the deposited layer is unsuitable for long-term corrosion protection nor for wire bonding, as the resulting layer is typically only 97% pure and thin (0.5-0.75 µm). As the deposit is based on displacement of some of the copper, electroless nickel plating may be unsuitable for boards with very fine traces.

At higher frequencies, the skin effect may cause higher losses due to higher electrical resistance of nickel; a nickel-plated trace can have its useful length shortened three times in the 1 GHz band in comparison with the non-plated one. Selective plating is used, depositing the nickel and gold layers only on areas where it is required and does not cause the detrimental side effects.

Gold plating may lead to formation of gold whiskers.

Soldering issues

Soldering gold-plated parts can be tricky.

Gold is soluble in solder. Solder which contains more than 5% gold can become brittle. The joint surface is dull-looking.

Gold reacts with both tin and lead in their liquid state, forming brittle intermetallics. When eutectic 63% Sn - 37% Pb solder is used, no lead-gold compounds are formed, because gold preferentially reacts with tin, forming the AuSn4 compound. Particles of AuSn4 disperse in the solder matrix, forming preferential cleavage planes, significantly lowering the mechanical strength and therefore reliability of the resulting solder joints.

If the gold layer does not completely dissolve into the solder, then slow intermetallic reactions can proceed in the solid state as the tin and gold atoms cross-migrate. Intermetallics have poor electrical conductivity and low strength. The ongoing intermetallic reactions also cause Kirkendall voiding, leading to mechanical failure of the joint, similar to the degradation of gold-aluminum bonds known as purple plague.

A 2-3 µm layer of gold dissolves completely within one second during typical wave soldering conditions. Layers of gold thinner than 0.5 µm (20 microinches) also dissolve completely into the solder, exposing the underlying metal (usually nickel) to the solder. Impurities in the nickel layer can prevent the solder from bonding to it. Electroless nickel plating contains phosphorus. Nickel with more than 8% phosphorus is not solderable. Electrodeposited nickel may contain nickel hydroxide. An acid bath is required to remove the passivation layer before applying the gold layer; improper cleaning leads to a nickel surface difficult to solder. A stronger flux can help, as it aids dissolving the oxide deposits. Carbon is another nickel contaminant that hinders solderability

I hope this helps to enlighten the subject of cabling. If you can afford Monster and think it is worth 300% more then buy it , use it & be happy. If you are like most people go with work is working well at the lower price.

And you think the cheap China cables can get that process right? You just laid out lots of the intricacies of the various metals and their relationships in the cable and connector manufacturing process. You might disregard air gaps, slag metals and such, but you do present probably an even more persuasive argument on why cable can differ so much in quality. There are companies out there trying to make the cheapest cable possible and so they aren't going to be giving as much attention to the details above.

I still have yet to see why Monoprice cables aren't certified by HDMI Licensing. If they perform just as well, should be no problem getting it. Even as a consumer, I look for independent certification of just about any product I buy. Think of it as looking for a "wet seal". ;)
 

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