He was never a "clubhouse cancer" during his tenure with the Indians either.
Manny's Gone
- Thread starter grydlok
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He was never a "clubhouse cancer" during his tenure with the Indians either.
You've unsuccessfully tried that argument before. I don't think the postseason spots were determined yet at the trading deadline last year. There must be a pretty good psychic working in the Red Sox front office.
Many in the media, and some fans seemed resigned to the fact last year that the Sox wouldn't have enough offense to make the playoffs after unloading Manny. Seeing that they made it to within one game of the WS says a lot about the organization....
If you don't think Manny quit on the Sox last year then how do you explain the stark contrast in his 2008 numbers after going to the Dodgers?? Is this when he started juicing??
Code:
[B]Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+[/B]
BOS 100 365 66 109 22 1 20 68 52 86 .299 .398 .529 .926 136
LAD 53 187 36 74 14 0 17 53 35 38 .396 .489 .743 1.232 219
Interesting.....seeing everything that has happened with Manny lately, could his surge in numbers be due his juicing late last year and then being caught AFTER juicing in the off season? And since we are talking about this so called quitting, look at Big Pappi's numbers since your are flying off the hook with stats of low production....is Big Pappi quitting.....?
My issue has always been....they were willing to overlook "Manny being Manny" when they won World Series and let all that crap go quietly into the night....last year....they started moaning and bitching to anyone that would listen.....they needed someone to blame....
Really??!!! The 70s Oakland A's had supposedly TERRIBLE team chemistry....the won 3 World Series in a row. The LATE 70s Cincinnati Reds didn't have the best chemistry...won 2 World Series in a row. The late 70s early 80s New York Yankees had terrible chemistry...they won a couple of World Series in a 5 year span. The early 90s Oakland A's also were not known to have good chemistry....they made a few World Series. Oakland Raiders had little chemistry in the late 70s and won a Super Bowl...as well as the 1983 team. The last 2 NBA championships by the Chicago Bulls had Dennis Rodman and had fights in practice all the time....ironically NONE involving The Worm....
....I have plenty of proof with my statement and I have stood by them all the time. When a team is winning, the popular catch phrase of "team chemistry" and "lockerroom cancer" are "a none issue" or my favorite, "we are handling it internally"....LOL! Chemistry can be a crutch by many teams when they cannot find an excuse of why the team is not winning when they should be.
Could be a difference in leagues and/or just a simple change in atmosphere. Even Bay produced better after being traded to the Sox. I wouldn't accuse Bay of quitting on the Pirates.
And yet....they STILL WON! That is what I am trying to say. You bring up Reggie Jackson, NOTORIOUSLY know to be a "bad clubhouse guy".....but he produced at just about ANYWHERE he went....and his teams won. Hell, he committed just about the ultimate sin in fighting with the manager ON NATIONAL TV!!! And they still won....
The numbers don't reflect that though, they look pretty consistent to me:
Code:
[B]Tm G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+[/B]
PIT 106 393 72 111 23 2 22 64 59 86 .282 .375 .519 .894 137
BOS 49 184 39 54 12 2 9 37 22 51 .293 .370 .527 .897 128
Calm down and go back and that post again. I wasn't referring to team chemistry, it was your contention that "last year because the Red Sox brass and some fans NEEDED SOMEONE to blame for a last place team winning the AL East and the American League pennant." How the hell could the Sox FO know in July of 2008 that they weren't going to win the AL East or the AL pennant?
Show me something that quotes someone in the Sox organization blaming Manny for the end results of the 2008 season. You won't find any because after the crap he pulled last year they were glad to get rid of him.
No, you don't find any because Manny was pulling a Manny just about every year, to a lesser degree. They had to justify trading one of the most prolific run produces in the last 25 years.....so using the excuse of "were tired of his BS" was there excuse to both trade him and not being in 1st place....just about EVERYTHING he did last year, he has done in the past. A little more so than on some years....but he has done it just about every year.
In the end, it's the typical parent moaning and bitching about HOW spoiled the child is when it was the parents that spoiled him the most. Every single Red Sox fan knows this when they put up with his crap....but they were in denial of admitting it.
It was more of "going from one baseball polar opposite to the other." He went from one of the worst baseball teams to one of the best.
Average this year and the end of last year (his whole time with the Sox) with his whole time with the Pirates. He has been more productive since switching. It could be that he performs better in a bigger market; it could be that he is better suited for the AL; it could be that the pitchers are not familiar with him yet; it could be that he may have done even better if he stayed with the Pirates.
The point being, is that there are too many factors to determine why someone performed better at a certain time. In Manny's case it could be a change in environment, a change in leagues, or a good September (some players just have good months), or that he quit on the team.
Again, I am no Manny supporter. Manny has quit on the team in the past as well. Last year was not unique.
Could very well be as well. Better hitters around him make him a better hitter as well.
I agree. Bad club house guy or not, Manny did help the Sox win two WS and helped the Dodgers in the playoffs last year.
Doesn't change the fact that his bad attitude and poor decisions can sometimes hurt more than help.
I can only speak for myself, but the Red Sox record had NOTHING to do with my disdain for Manny last July.
The Sox could have been the '27 Yankees reincarnated or clones of the 1988 Orioles, it didn't matter to me.
What DID matter was Manny pushing down a 64 year old traveling secretary, refusing to pinch hit in a big game, flopping around the field in Anaheim laughing, taking three straight pitches right down the pike in a pinch hitting role against Mo Rivera, slapping a teammate in the dugout, etc., etc., etc.
I was on record here last July, saying I DID'NT CARE if the Red Sox finished in LAST PLACE. Just get this bum out of town. This is not revisionist history.
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