Long distance antenna 60 - 100 miles?

[Dish Sub 2015]

Yes I don't understand all this wave length stuff
My line of thinking is that: in places with good signal any random piece of cable in the antenna input will get you a good TV signal.
Sat dishes gets signal from thousands of miles = good amplification or very good piece of metallurgy inside of LNB.
The question was can i pull this golden or whatever pieces from few old LNBs and use them for something like DIY bi-quad LNB of some sort?
And if this going to be more effective than regular TV antenna?

 

[comfortably_numb]

No, it isn't true that "any random piece of cable in the antenna input will get you a good TV signal." Maybe back in the analog days, if you lived next to the broadcast tower, you might have been able to pick up a TV station with the screws on the back of your TV. But after the digital transition, it's totally different now

 

[Radioguy41]

First, there's no such thing as a digital TV antenna. An antenna is an antenna, a 20 year old one in good shape will work as well as any. For that distance under those circumstances you're going to need something a bit more serious than the little gizmos that have been posted so far. I live a little more than 60 miles north of Philadelphia and am located in the northside shadow of the Blue Mountain. With my rig I have locked 73 channels. Don't be concerned with rejection. An anomaly with digital TV signals is that an antenna will pull in nearly as well from the backside as frontwards. My antenna is situated so it pulls Phila in front and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre in back.

Now, here's the setup:
Radio Shack VU-190-XR Antenna. 160" boom, 57 elements VHF/UHF.
Channel Master 7777 mast mounted Pre-Amp.
Channel Master 9521 Rotor.

Because I split the line once it's in the house I use a powered low DB distribution amp to make up for the DBs lost when splitting the signal.

Bottom line, put up the biggest antenna you can as high as you can, coupled with a really good mast-mounted pre-amp and, given the spread of towers you're trying to lock, install a rotor.

Here's mine up on the shed.

 

[harshness]

Yes I don't understand all this wave length stuff

It isn't that mind-boggling and it is key to figuring out what you need.

What you have with a TV antenna is usually an array of elements that either "tune" or reflect various frequencies based on the wavelength. What you see in your pictured feed horn is a couple of antennas that are approximately 1/4 of the wavelength that they are designed to catch (half a dipole). ? = frequency (Hz)/C (speed of light). Element length = ?/4. Something close to the prescribed length will pick up the frequency so you don't need a set of elements for each channel.

In C-band terms, ?<5" and in Ku band ?<1" (hence the short element).

My line of thinking is that: in places with good signal any random piece of cable in the antenna input will get you a good TV signal.

Once on the cable, you're golden. The problem is getting it onto the cable and that requires an antenna that is coarsely "tuned" to the frequencies you're seeking. TV band covers a lot of territory.

Sat dishes gets signal from thousands of miles = good amplification or very good piece of metallurgy inside of LNB.

It has a whole lot less to do with the metallurgy than it does with the fact that you've got an antenna that is pointed directly at the source (the satellite) and it is "tuned" to a rather narrow range of wavelengths. Two other major factors are that you have an unobstructed view of the satellite and no interference from other signal sources. Your OTA antenna situation isn't so endowed as you have both edges and probably a good amount of interference.

The question was can i pull this golden or whatever pieces from few old LNBs and use them for something like DIY bi-quad LNB of some sort?

What is required isn't a fancy metal but an antenna that is both "tuned" for the frequencies (there are up to three different ranges in play) and is pointed in the right direction (problematic since your surrounded by towers).

And if this going to be more effective than regular TV antenna?

Not in an measurable way. You're welcome to gold plate a conventional antenna if you don't believe me. What you'll end up with is an antenna that won't oxidize but the performance will probably be very near the same.

 

[comfortably_numb]

Save your money on the gold plating, but be sure to spend $4 on some silicone RTV sealant to goop up your connections if your antenna is outside.


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[Tampa8]

First, there's no such thing as a digital TV antenna.

Oh how many people just assume there must be. There are reputable sellers online who even tout they have the best "Digital" antennas. I give them a break because no doubt there are so many who think that is what they are looking for. I also wonder just how many wasted money on the "Key" behind the set antenna or the many other nearly worthless items.

 

[comfortably_numb]

Oh how many people just assume there must be. There are reputable sellers online who even tout they have the best "Digital" antennas. I give them a break because no doubt there are so many who think that is what they are looking for. I also wonder just how many wasted money on the "Key" behind the set antenna or the many other nearly worthless items.

Just like these sellers claiming their antenna will pick up 1080p OTA broadcasts


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[. Raine]

Simply put, the length of antenna elements directly correspond to the frequencies you are trying to receive. The pieces in lnbs that you asked about are for microwave frequencies, too short for OTA and different frequencies.

Here, I have one station that will come in with a small antenna, piece of wire, etc. With just my 8200u antenna on the roof, I pull in about 4 stations, with the pre-amp on it, about thirty eight. My Tvfool report looks much better than yours, reception in your area looks like it would be tough.

 

[harshness]

Save your money on the gold plating, but be sure to spend $4 on some silicone RTV sealant to goop up your connections if your antenna is outside.

Using what is effectively a permanent glue to put your connectors together is asking for trouble. Dielectric grease is the preferred chemical for displacing water.

 

[comfortably_numb]

Using what is effectively a permanent glue to put your connectors together is asking for trouble. Dielectric grease is the preferred chemical for displacing water.

Not what I've been told by electrical engineers with Masters Degrees, one of whom is my father who has been an EE for 37 years. What are your credentials, exactly?


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[harshness]

Not what I've been told by electrical engineers with Masters Degrees, one of whom is my father who has been an EE for 37 years. What are your credentials, exactly?

Undergraduate coursework in Electrical and Computer Engineering along with practical experience in aerial and direct burial coax and network cabling.

Tell me how your associates get such a connection apart without serious effort (including have to remove all goo off the center conductor before reassembly). Most who are serious about sealing F connectors use external coverings (Scotch 130C for example) that cover from jacket to jacket.

Do they recommend thread locking compound too?

What engineers fancy and what practitioners use are two entirely different schools of thought. You won't find RTV on DIRECTV or DISH's approved materials list as a way of sealing anything other than through-holes:

SG3-P1
Perfect Vision Silicone Sealant 3 Oz, Clear
This is a “RTV” (Room Temperature Vulcanization) product which is typically used to seal voids where moisture or insects could enter dwellings or structures. It sets up to form a semi-clear pliable filler. DIRECTV™ approved.

Here's another viewpoint (makes note of the importance of maintaining dielectric constant in impedance matching).

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?thr...lectric-grease-for-weather-protection.420978/

 

[comfortably_numb]

Undergraduate coursework in Electrical and Computer Engineering along with practical experience in aerial and direct burial coax and network cabling.

Tell me how your associates get such a connection apart without serious effort (including have to remove all goo off the center conductor before reassembly). Most who are serious about sealing F connectors use external coverings (Scotch 130C for example) that cover from jacket to jacket.

Do they recommend thread locking compound too?

What engineers fancy and what practitioners use are two entirely different schools of thought. You won't find RTV on DIRECTV or DISH's approved materials list as a way of sealing anything other than through-holes:

Here's another viewpoint (makes note of the importance of maintaining dielectric constant in impedance matching).

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?thr...lectric-grease-for-weather-protection.420978/

For what it's worth, none of the "professional" installations Dish Network have done for me have ever used any kind of sealant on their connections. Maybe they're supposed to, but they don't.

With regards to sealing the joints permanately- that's what I wanted. We're sealing the outside of the coax, not the center connector. Trying to keep snow and rain out.


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[harshness]

Trying to keep snow and rain out.

Along with any test gear that you might want/need to use.

Over-taping is the preferred method as it doesn't mess with the mechanics of the connection and it makes a jacket-to-jacket connection. It is notable that dielectric grease is still recommended when over-taping.

 

[Dish Sub 2015]

It isn't that mind-boggling and it is key to figuring out what you need.

What you have with a TV antenna is usually an array of elements that either "tune" or reflect various frequencies based on the wavelength. What you see in your pictured feed horn is a couple of antennas that are approximately 1/4 of the wavelength that they are designed to catch (half a dipole). ? = frequency (Hz)/C (speed of light). Element length = ?/4. Something close to the prescribed length will pick up the frequency so you don't need a set of elements for each channel.
.

Thanks harshness,
if the wave is reflected by parabolic antenna does the length of the wave remain the same?
I understand that if I use sat dish, the dish need to be pointed directly towards the tower and probably will catch only one tower.
That what I thinking is that a sat dish is 200 - 400 square inches which is more than the reception area of regular antenna?
Also the cheap indoor antennas are two triangle pieces foil inside square plastic?
If i made 2 bi-triangles from coper and put them where the LNB use to be, does it going to work and how big those triangles need to be?

For what it's worth, none of the "professional" installations Dish Network have done for me have ever used any kind of sealant on their connections. Maybe they're supposed to, but they don't.

The only connectors with water i have seen are those withe cracked cables above them. All approved compressed connectors are water resistant.

 

[Titanium]

The cheap flat antennas are PCB traces. The performance is not much different than an old school bow-tie or rabbit ears.

Please review the first 9 posts of this thread. Placing a single driven element of any shape in front of a DirecTV or Dish Network dish will have very little gain. You will have much higher gain with a traditional flat or yagi antenna.

Here is a simple UHF folded dipole that could be mounted in the focal point of a reflector.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Quick-Makeshift-HDTV-Antenna/

 

[harshness]

if the wave is reflected by parabolic antenna does the length of the wave remain the same?

The issue with using pizza dishes is that the dish isn't nearly large enough to reflect the frequencies involved; not even the enormous Slimline comes close at the wavelengths involved. Those who offer dish-inspired OTA TV antennas are trying to cash in on the techie look as opposed to providing something that actually works. Radio Shack used to offer a rabbit ears setup that had a small plastic dish on the base. It wasn't functional, but it looked kinda Buck Rogers.

 

[raoul5788]

The issue with using pizza dishes is that the dish isn't nearly large enough to reflect the frequencies involved; not even the enormous Slimline comes close at the wavelengths involved. Those who offer dish-inspired OTA TV antennas are trying to cash in on the techie look as opposed to providing something that actually works. Radio Shack used to offer a rabbit ears setup that had a small plastic dish on the base. It wasn't functional, but it looked kinda Buck Rogers.

I see you haven't changed your tune regarding the size of the Slimline. You do realize the Dish Superdish is virtually the same size, yes?

 

[harshness]

I see you haven't changed your tune regarding the size of the Slimline.

Why would I? The Slimline is the largest basic dish used in CONUS DBS TV installs.

You do realize the Dish Superdish is virtually the same size, yes?

Yes, but the Superdish is no longer used in residential installations (that ended in 2008 as I recall). The basic DISH HD install uses the 1000.2 that has a sail area 40% smaller than the Slimline.

 

[comfortably_numb]

I thought Dish only installed 1000.4 now?


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[raoul5788]

Why would I? The Slimline is the largest basic dish used in CONUS DBS TV installs.Yes, but the Superdish is no longer used in residential installations (that ended in 2008 as I recall). The basic DISH HD install uses the 1000.2 that has a sail area 40% smaller than the Slimline.

Yes, but you have been whining about the size of the Slimline since it came out, when Dish used a similarly sized dish.