Installer charging for in ground installation.

[Sauk Valley Sat]

Hey all you CUSTOMERS!

See how we act when we have been crapped on and have to make a second trip?

Ok, seriously now, reality is reality.

Everybody (and I mean EVERYBODY) that is in this business has walked up to a brand new house where the homeowner has expected us to do a custom install from scratch after the home has been finished because they saw a commercial on tv or received a flyer touting a FREE INSTALL. Or maybe we showed up at a 100 yr old farm house that has been watching rabbit ears and they think we can use that "new invisible" cable to keep the original look of the house.

BOTTOM LINE IS

Before you call us think things through, look at everything that has to be done, and estimate what it would cost you to hire an electrical contractor to bring your home up to the current standards. Think things through. Nothing is impossible, contractors can put an outlet anywhere. But just realize that just because you know someone that had it done doesn't mean that it didn't involve holes in the walls , drywallers, and painters to get it done. If you want something like that done to your house the 800 number guys are never going to do it. That takes a level of planning and communication that they are just not set up for. Look for a local retailer and even then make sure it is a retailer that offers a full service Home Theater type service, not just a store selling tv and cell phones. If you are remodeling or building new talk to those guys BEFORE you hang the drywall. If your square with them they will cut you a deal on the prewire if they know they will get a new activation out of it. You will probably get some good advice/service on a whole range of other stuff like tv locations, surround sound, networking, intercoms, survelance cameras, etc. This is a new century, low voltage is low voltage, this stuff is all interconnected now, don't let your knowledge limit you. Pennies will save you dollars more often than not.

Remember a free install is exactly what it is. Almost all of the complaints I have seen about installers on this board havn't been about an install not functioning after it's done, they are from customers that heard free and ran with it.

 

[sunoff58]

pole mount = $100 if its ka/ku

 

[Claude Greiner]

I know some of you installers are going to disagree with me here, but the ground mount should have been Free and included as part of the installation.

Heres why...

#1 Many years ago Dish and Directv used to make it mandatory that you pay for the pole mount when it was required to complete your installation. Many installers where abusing this and telling customers they needed a pole mount to get out of the installation because they know dam well that most customers will cancel and installation completely than pay the extra charges. Because Dish and Directv where loosing too many new installations over this, they made the pole mounts free to the customer if they are needed.

#2 How many customers who get pole mounts actually pay for them? Not very many! Your either going to charge everyone for a pole mount or not charge anyone at all.

The installer actually got luckey here and got the customer to pay for the additional labor, but what really concerns me is that the check was made out to the installer and not the company he works for.

And for those installers out there who disagree with me, I used to do installation several years ago and I ask the question what is so dam hard about doing a pole mount anyways that requires a $75 charge to the customer?

You got a $7 1 5/8 chain link fence post from home depot and about $8 in Cement for a total of $15. If the installer is not going to get the company he works for to cover the additional matterials, than I can see billing the customer for matterials only, but the $75 is beyond me.

There is really nothing to it, you dig the hole, mix the cement, set the pole and your done! To trench the wires you get a shovel, peel back the sod and bury the cable down 3-4 inches and your done. If I got the stuff on my truck, I can probably do a pole mount in the same amount of time it takes me to get my ladder off my truck and do a roof mount.

As far as burying the cable, 3-4 inches is all you really need! I have never seen anybody actually trench down the full 18 inches as required for electrical,

 

[Claude Greiner]

Only time a pole mount should be charged to the customer is when the customer requests it and there is a line of site on the roof.

Wall Fishes get charged as additional labor in addition to surround sound hookups.

Phone lines are also part of the basic install eventhough nobody bothers to hook them up.

 

[rbrt67]

Charging for pole mount

I will not do a pole mount if requested for free. As for taking the same amount of time....u are either superman or it takes you way too damn lond to do a roof mount. I can have the dish up aligned and cables dropped to the ground block or multi in a matter of 10 minutes. Takes at least an hour to properly do a pole mount and with the Ka/Ku dishes you need to let the cement set for a while to prevent the wind from blowing the dish 10 minutes after you leave or the pole spinning while aligning the dish. I dont know what ur pay is but, we get $75 per standard 1 or 2 box install. $100 for HD. I can do a 1 box HD install in 30 minutes vs 1 1/2 hrs. to set pole and bury wires. Thats $150/hr standard install, $50/hr for setting a free pole?? DONT THINK SO!!

 

[sunoff58]

from my warehouse pole= $18 2 bags cement =$12 total = $30 my ass digging a hole through roots n shite=$100 done done noodle

 

[sunoff58]

and.... $1 a foot to bury lines. I'm not a ditch digger. period.

 

[Jimbo]

I know some of you installers are going to disagree with me here, but the ground mount should have been Free and included as part of the installation.

Heres why...

#1 Many years ago Dish and Directv used to make it mandatory that you pay for the pole mount when it was required to complete your installation. Many installers where abusing this and telling customers they needed a pole mount to get out of the installation because they know dam well that most customers will cancel and installation completely than pay the extra charges. Because Dish and Directv where loosing too many new installations over this, they made the pole mounts free to the customer if they are needed.

#2 How many customers who get pole mounts actually pay for them? Not very many! Your either going to charge everyone for a pole mount or not charge anyone at all.

The installer actually got luckey here and got the customer to pay for the additional labor, but what really concerns me is that the check was made out to the installer and not the company he works for.

And for those installers out there who disagree with me, I used to do installation several years ago and I ask the question what is so dam hard about doing a pole mount anyways that requires a $75 charge to the customer?

You got a $7 1 5/8 chain link fence post from home depot and about $8 in Cement for a total of $15. If the installer is not going to get the company he works for to cover the additional matterials, than I can see billing the customer for matterials only, but the $75 is beyond me.

There is really nothing to it, you dig the hole, mix the cement, set the pole and your done! To trench the wires you get a shovel, peel back the sod and bury the cable down 3-4 inches and your done. If I got the stuff on my truck, I can probably do a pole mount in the same amount of time it takes me to get my ladder off my truck and do a roof mount.

As far as burying the cable, 3-4 inches is all you really need! I have never seen anybody actually trench down the full 18 inches as required for electrical,

I don't see D* buried too often here, but the local cable company is lucky to get under the sod, let alone the 12-18 " that is actually req.

Jimbo

 

[Jimbo]

Only time a pole mount should be charged to the customer is when the customer requests it and there is a line of site on the roof.

Wall Fishes get charged as additional labor in addition to surround sound hookups.

Phone lines are also part of the basic install eventhough nobody bothers to hook them up.

So if it's convenient for the installer, it's free, but if the sub suggests it , it's not ?

You get concrete to set up in 10 minutes ?
When I did my post install I waited till the next day to mount, but that's at MY place and it was a 16' pole.

Jimbo

 

[Jimbo]

I will not do a pole mount if requested for free. As for taking the same amount of time....u are either superman or it takes you way too damn lond to do a roof mount. I can have the dish up aligned and cables dropped to the ground block or multi in a matter of 10 minutes. Takes at least an hour to properly do a pole mount and with the Ka/Ku dishes you need to let the cement set for a while to prevent the wind from blowing the dish 10 minutes after you leave or the pole spinning while aligning the dish. I dont know what ur pay is but, we get $75 per standard 1 or 2 box install. $100 for HD. I can do a 1 box HD install in 30 minutes vs 1 1/2 hrs. to set pole and bury wires. Thats $150/hr standard install, $50/hr for setting a free pole?? DONT THINK SO!!

Are you sealing the holes in the roof that I would have to be calling D* about when my roof leaks .....

I would prefer a pole mount any day of the week.
Try putting a dish on my roof and you'll be out of here.
particularlly if I am not aware that, thats what your doing ahead of time.
IF thats the ONLY way to get a signal, thats one thing, but that would be MY LAST resort.

Jimbo

 

[rbrt67]

Ummmmmm.....yep I have to seal the holes in the roof to keep it from leaking, we are not idiots. D* guarantees the work form a damage standpoint for 1 year, after that it is your problem if it leaks, which I find is fair. If the sat will work on the house anywhere, not just the roof, and you require a pole mount, you pay. You pay, or I walk.

 

[Joe Diamond]

Only time a pole mount should be charged to the customer is when the customer requests it and there is a line of site on the roof.

Wall Fishes get charged as additional labor in addition to surround sound hookups.

Phone lines are also part of the basic install eventhough nobody bothers to hook them up.

Claude,

What you said about the poles is pretty accurate. IF the tech is being paid by the hour and the HSP is providing the materials than, by all means, have a free pole mount. And the phones can be run for the same reason.

But what happens..........and this is illegal anyway.........is the HSPs somehow get the techs to working for piece work . Time becomes money again. The tech may or may not be paid for the extra work & time required for that item, He may be fired (sometimes a good thing) for not producing enough installations because he screwed around with too many pole installations.

It also happens that these poles go in in the wrong place or cut underground utilities. Then the word FREE takes on a whole new meaning.

You are not wrong but....it's complicated.

Joe

 

[Liquidforce88]

Yes the poles don't cost $75 for materials. They do cost a significant amount when you consider what companies want to pay for an install these days. If it is a single install it is close to 50% of the pay for the job. That is the pole, concrete, and a plate to stop the pole from spining. They cost in problems and time. No way can a pole be done in less time than a roof mount unless it is the perfect situation, right next to the POE with little or no trenching.

These freaking KA/KU dishes are monsters on poles. It does not help that the poles we have to buy from D* are only like 5' tall. Even if you put them 3' in the ground they can pull it over when the ground is super wet like it has been. With all the rain we have been getting in our area I had to fix 3 pole mounts today.(I did not install them and these were more crap install than anything)

Customers run into the dang things with the lawn mower, kids run into them playing around, utilities/customers dig through the lines, gofers think the buried lines taste good, tree limbs fall on them, snow plow blasts the things, pranksters think it's funny to mess with them. I hate pole mounts, as they do nothing but cause problems!

Then you have to take the risk of hitting an under ground utility when you install. These HSP and RSP don't want to hear reschedual. They want the job in the ground that day. If these companys want poles done for free then they better start providing all the materials for it. It is just getting to the point that installers can't eat all these costs any longer.

 

[rbrt67]

the hsp i work for does supply the material for contractors as well as employees for pole mounts. I strictly charge for the time. I once had a customer get angry at my price and drives to the store to bring me back a pole. He says "there you go, 6 bucks!! far cry from 75". I looked at him and said "I could have given you a post if u wanted one, i dont pay for them anyway", " and by the way it is still 75 dollars to put it in the ground for you" Needless to say it resulted in a call to D*, in which I was surprised to be backed up fully by D* as well a my HSP. You gotta be firm with people or they drag you through the mud and squeeze everyhing they can out of you. Another classic is they read 150Ft. per reciever and think you should just spool off what you dont use and give it to them. In this case you have them show you where they read this and point out that it says "UP TO 150ft AS NEEDED"

 

[Claude Greiner]

You also got to look at things from my point of view. Im the sales partner, I make the sales so the installers have work that morning to install the customers I sold the other day.

I spend thousands upon thousands upon dollars for advertising to get these customers to call me, I spent thousands of dollars to pay my employees to sit on the phones all day long to talk to these customers to sell them service.

When im finished with the customer and find one that is actually credit qualified and meets all the new customer requirements, I put it everything together in this nice little package called a work order and send it off to an installer to get the customer installed and watching TV.

The installer aint got nothing invested in this whole game, besides his truck and his tools and he is fully dependant on the work me and other retailers might send him. when I send over a job to get installed, I expect it to go in

I don't want to hear your running late if you are, then call my customer and let them know what time they can expect you.

I don't want my Job cancelled because you decided the customer needs a pole mount and decided that you want to charge my customer to make a little extra money on the side and the customer refuses to pay.

When there is not enough work, I get installers crying to me that there is no work and they got to put food on their Table to feed their family. When we get slammed with work and I have to ask a few of my technicians to work 2 jobs per day and 7 days a week, they complain we are giving them too much to do and want to charge me more to put in each job. Yet the following week they will not be busy again and might only work 3 days...

I just got into it with one of my installers today over a hotel that needs to be wired. Its a cheap $30 per night hotel with 57 rooms. Very simple drill through the cinder block wall at the back of the room and run the cable to the TV and string it along the back of the building. No wall fishing, no Bullsh!t...

I need the entire Job done for $1500 with me supplying the cable. Figure it will take him about a week to get the place wired, and Im arguing with my technician because he says he needs $2500.

Customer is only going to pay $1500, or im going to loose the Job. With the economy this bad, I finally told him do you want to work this week or not?

 

[Jared Twomey]

The installer aint got nothing invested in this whole game, besides his truck and his tools and he is fully dependant on the work me and other retailers might send him. when I send over a job to get installed, I expect it to go in

I don't want to hear your running late if you are, then call my customer and let them know what time they can expect you.

I don't want my Job cancelled because you decided the customer needs a pole mount and decided that you want to charge my customer to make a little extra money on the side and the customer refuses to pay.

The installer does have an investment in his truck, tools, fuel, insurance, small parts, wire, ect. He may not have thousands invested as you do, but his return on each job is also much smaller than what you make.

And if there is additional labor or work involved to do the job, and no one is willing to pay for it, why should the installer foot the bill for the extra material and waste his own time not to get paid for it? As an installer, if there is something that is not included in a basic install, and if neither the customer nor the retailer is willing to pay for it, then i'm walking away from the job... I don't care if the retailer is pissed. I'm not going to make next to nothing, or take a loss on a job just so the retailer can make his money.

Most of the problems with customers refusing to pay for needed services, that the retailer is not willing to pay for, is that the sales person sold them on "free, free, free". Then the customer expects the installer to re-wire their home theater, walk the dog, wash the car, and mop the floors before he leaves... f*** that. If the sales people would just be HONEST with the customer and tell them what is included, AND WHAT ISN'T, and explain that for a non-standard install there will be additional charges, then the customer isn't going to think they were bait and switched, and they won't get as pissed off.

When I first started installing I would do whatever it took to take care of the customer... and I lost money doing that. Now, I do my job and that is all. When a customer starts telling me all the things the sales person told them I would do for free, I pull out a print out of what is included in a basic install, and explain what I can and can't do. Then I let them know that if they were lied to by the sales person they needed to call them back up and let them know they don't appreciate being lied to. Almost every customer ends up on my side, and understands that the sales person will tell them any lie they need to, to get the sale.

Am I throwing the lying salesperson under the bus... you better believe it. If the salesperson would have done their job properly from the start, all of our jobs would be much easier.

 

[Zynergi]

No offense Claude Greiner it sounds like you have become completely out of touch with what your techs have to do... thats all I really have to say any more and I will get banned..

 

[mental1]

I own and operate a small Home Theater business in Pennsylvania. I agree almost 100% with the Techs here. I also have to pay the advertising, make the sales and pay the Techs, but I also do installations. I will tell the customer everything they want to hear to make a sale, but I also let them know what is free and what is not before I even complete the sales order. Why blow smoke up the customers ass by saying it's free, just so me or one of my Techs can roll to the home and have the customer cancel as soon as we say they have to pay for something? To me it makes NO sense. All you wind up with is customers calling up bitching that they were lied to. You have a pissed off customer, a pissed off Tech and a cancelled sale. Also do you think that lying to customers makes for good "word of mouth" customers?

 

[thetech2009]

this will always be an ongoing battle because customers are LIED to

 

[Liquidforce88]

Gees Claude you make it sound like techs don't have to do anything...

Let's not forget how often techs have to, resell a job, waste his time getting the provider to get the order correct, deal with customers calling at 11 PM because their system is not working (the dish symbol is bouncing on the screen), roll to a customers house that forgot about the install and don't get a penny for the gas or time, not getting paid for NLOS's, not getting paid to fix defective equipment, and on and on and on.

Claude please don't take my responce as some sort of jab. I totally understand what a retailer has to deal with as well.