HBO Max/Discovery+ Merger

I didn't understand why they got rid of HBO. It is indeed the premium channel. Since its inception, all the way to about the end of Game of Thrones. To just toss that image away seems silly. Granted, I'm getting older and younger people were way to young to watch The Sopranos, The Wire or weren't even alive when Arli$$ or Kids in the Hall was on. Thirty Helens agree, there still has to be a brand value to HBO.
As I wrote before, name should have been HBO+, or HBOMAX+.

You just do not toss away a name like that, for example, from 2022-
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The big problem is Warner Brothers has DC. And they didn't use it well at all. Disney cruised with Marvel, and finished up a remarkable Infinity War story arc of the likes never produced before, even the bad movies were okay. It helps with the heroes being a bit fallible which doesn't require ridiculous (for comic book movies) storylines. Warner Brothers doesn't have Star Wars, a franchise that has proven you can make awful movies, slap that title on it, and people will still show up.
Warner actually has a tremendous catalog beyond DC, many older shows/movies’ concepts that can be used towards an update, much like how Universal treated Battlestar.


Warner/Discovery does not have the $$$ to do so or the want to since it leans into the cheaper reality programming already paid for to pad MAX with content.

I think of Peacock the same way, NBC Universal has a massive back catalog, many shows that can be remade in today’s world.

 
You can put up as many GIFs as you wish, since taking over Warner from AT&T, they have made it worse ( which is amazing since AT&T basically destroyed it).

Losses continue (negative $966,000,000 in Q1 2024), a bunch of flop movies or barely breaking even, because of way to high budgets, losing more then 2 Million per sub fees every quarter for all their basic cable channels, lost the NBA, etc.

Has lost the Prestige TV Series marker to other streaming services, specially Apple TV, what does HBO have, 1 right now, will be back in 2 years.

And a market cap of $17 Billion, but current debt of $42 Billion.
Um...why exactly did you think I posted the GIF? If it wasn't clear, it was about another name change for what should have always just been HBO.
 
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Um...why exactly did you think I posted the GIF? If it wasn't clear, it was about another name change for what should have always just been HBO.
The GIF could of been taken many ways.

My apologies.

But I will post this again, Discovery has no idea how to run Warner, still amazed they are doing a worse job then AT&T.

Seems like they reset every 6 months, mostly because they are in desperate needs of cash.

But to keep cutting the programming that subscribers of HBO expect is the wrong move, will cause more to leave.

I received the $139 yearly special for the 4K Package a few months ago, but I am finding it is not worth that.

After the year is over, if things are not better, going to drop and subscribe for a month once a year to catch up, that is how I sub to AMC+.

The only services worth yearly are Hulu, Disney, Paramount with Showtime and Netflix because they are constantly adding new content.
 
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I watch Amazon as much as Netflix. They have more classic movies and shows, not to mention Reacher, Boyz, Wheel of Tme, Gen V, etc. And a perk of Prime.
I just do not consider Amazon a streaming service, more of an add on to the free shipping.

If it was just a streaming service, like AMC+, I would subscribe for a month, catch up, cancel, repeat the following year.

I think of Apple TV+ the same way, but a couple of years ago, Costco had Apple TV+ gift cards on sale for 1 year/$30, I bought 6, so have it all year ( and a few more).
 
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Allmost six months ago, I went to cancel the premium tier (4K, DV)) and go an offer to stay and pay $8 for the ad free tier. I went cancel that this morning, and they came back with an $8.50 offer. So, I accepted. They sure don't want to lose "a statistic".
 
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Allmost six months ago, I went to cancel the premium tier (4K, DV)) and go an offer to stay and pay $8 for the ad free tier. I went cancel that this morning, and they came back with an $8.50 offer. So, I accepted. They sure don't want to lose "a statistic".
I'd rather have you pay me $8.50 a month than $0 a month too.
 
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Again, just throwing things at the wall to see what will stick-

One of the companies that has expressed a desire to reach a deal is Warner Bros. Discovery, according to people familiar with the matter. Combining Max and Paramount+ could strengthen both services by allowing them to better compete with Netflix and Disney’s suite of platforms (Disney+, Hulu and ESPN) for eyeballs and future content.

Moar debt! That will solve the problem. ;)
 
not only is paramount trying to do this, but the skydance merger is back on (again). what a mess.
 
Warner is continuing to show how bad it is-


Plus the long term debt of $40 Billion, total liabilities of $76 Billion, I see a Chapter 11 coming soon with no clear turn around to prevent a filing.

So many complained about Disney, said it was the end, now look at it, Bob Iger takes over less then 2 years ago, makes some changes, now, will be the big winner at the Box Office this year, Disney+ just had their first profitable quarter and has received increases in per sub fees from Traditional Paid Live TV .

Do we see any turn around like that from Warner?
 
Warner is continuing to show how bad it is-


Plus the long term debt of $40 Billion, total liabilities of $76 Billion, I see a Chapter 11 coming soon with no clear turn around to prevent a filing.

So many complained about Disney, said it was the end, now look at it, Bob Iger takes over less then 2 years ago, makes some changes, now, will be the big winner at the Box Office this year, Disney+ just had their first profitable quarter and has received increases in per sub fees from Traditional Paid Live TV .
Again, the streaming/profitability thing... that is a lot of voodoo accounting.
Do we see any turn around like that from Warner?
I ponder Warner's future success laying in the hands of James Gunn.
 
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There's a growing recognition that WBD's strategy, largely centered on Max, isn't working. Some of you say that the HBO name should never have been taken from their DTC streamer's branding. But I now think the problem is more fundamental than that: it simply shouldn't include HBO at all. Max is an unwieldy combo: lots of premium stuff (HBO), lots of cheap reality stuff (Discovery), plus the third-most-popular national news network (CNN). But there's just not enough new/recent scripted series serving those mainstream (non-HBO) viewers. Who exactly is Max supposed to be for? It's a weird grab-bag of content and that makes for a very muddled marketing proposition.

These traditional studios have to look at what has made them rich in the first place -- the traditional cable bundle -- and try to replicate that the best they can for the DTC streaming era. The problem with the big cable bundle (starting at $73) is that, relative to Netflix ($7 w/ ads; $15.50 - $23 ad-free) and Disney+Hulu ($10 w/ ads, $20 ad-free), it's just too expensive. There's only value in the bundle if you watch a broad array of the content it offers -- mainly sports, plus local and national news, entertainment shows here and there -- and want it all put together in one convenient UI. There will continue to be a decent chunk of US households for whom that's true, but it will soon be (or maybe is as of this summer) less than 50% of them.

To sell their content to the rest of us, these traditional studios have to pool their content together -- as they've always done via the cable bundle -- but this time without MVPD middlemen (e.g. Comcast, DirecTV) and in the form of mini-bundles that appeal to specific groups of viewers.

The cost of sports is largely what has driven up the cost of the big cable bundle. So it makes sense, when putting these new mini-bundles together, to mostly segregate sports off into its own service/app. (Note that this is what Disney plans to do with the forthcoming standalone ESPN DTC launching in fall 2025.)

Second, it makes sense to segregate your premium content off into its own service/app too, because that content fetches a higher profit margin -- affluent consumers are always willing to pay a premium for perceived quality. This kind of content may never appeal to a majority of US households -- Succession and The Righteous Gemstones are not the same as Young Sheldon and NCIS -- but that's OK. Most households do not want to be forced to pay extra for this kind of content that they won't watch. Keep in mind that premium services like HBO and Showtime were always sold as optional add-ons to the basic cable bundle, not as unavoidable parts of the bundle itself. Let history be your guide. Stick with what works.

That leaves us with the third mini-bundle: everything else, i.e. basic broadcast/cable entertainment and news. This is the mainstream service that offers a variety of content appealing to a solid majority of households: accessible/broad scripted shows, kids shows, reality/game shows, national and local news, documentaries, old favorite shows and movies. I would also add the most popular sport in the US: NFL. That would be the only sport appearing in this service and it would, of course, also air on the sports-only mini-bundle service.

This is the way forward for WBD, Paramount and NBCUniversal. Max, Paramount+ and Peacock are all broken objects that can't be tweaked into profitability on their own. One way or another, they're going to have to consolidate. It would be better for them to do it voluntarily, via agreed-upon negotiated terms, rather than long painful deaths in the market followed by fire sales.
 
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Again, the streaming/profitability thing... that is a lot of voodoo accounting.

I ponder Warner's future success laying in the hands of James Gunn.
Keep in mind that Warner's "streaming" division includes all that revenue from those tens of millions of households that subscribe to HBO via their pay TV provider, some of whom never even use the Max app. Imagine how bad the numbers would be if that traditional HBO revenue wasn't included!

And the only reason why their streaming division posted a small profit for the first time in 2022 is because of Warner's increased licensing of their content out to third-party streamers like Amazon, Tubi, etc. (If you're wondering where the HBO Original fantasy series The Nevers went to, it disappeared from Max and has been streaming on a WB FAST channel on Tubi.)
 
There's only value in the bundle if you watch a broad array of the content it offers -- mainly sports, plus local and national news, entertainment shows here and there -- and want it all put together in one convenient UI. There will continue to be a decent chunk of US households for whom that's true, but it will soon be (or maybe is as of this summer) less than 50% of them.
This is pretty true. I also think maybe that we are all missing something else - maybe society has evolved past "channels" entirely. Once upon a time, we all bought albums (and artists released albums regularly) because that's how we consumed music. 8-14 songs straight through by one artist. Start and then end when done. Today, artists have no qualms about releasing their work one song at a time to 10 different platforms.

Maybe the studio to channel model is broken beyond what we think. Instead of D+, Max, Peacock all trying to serve up their in-house content or license content, they just move toward an aggregator model where they defacto serve up their "Spotify" or "Apple Music" or "Tidal" platform/ad tech and all the content creators just dump their content across all of them and get paid based on views. The viewing platform just becomes a way of allowing consumers to choose their preferred interface to view the thing they want to see. Netflix is successful because it's probably halfway to this already.
 
This is pretty true. I also think maybe that we are all missing something else - maybe society has evolved past "channels" entirely. Once upon a time, we all bought albums (and artists released albums regularly) because that's how we consumed music. 8-14 songs straight through by one artist. Start and then end when done. Today, artists have no qualms about releasing their work one song at a time to 10 different platforms.

Maybe the studio to channel model is broken beyond what we think. Instead of D+, Max, Peacock all trying to serve up their in-house content or license content, they just move toward an aggregator model where they defacto serve up their "Spotify" or "Apple Music" or "Tidal" platform/ad tech and all the content creators just dump their content across all of them and get paid based on views. The viewing platform just becomes a way of allowing consumers to choose their preferred interface to view the thing they want to see. Netflix is successful because it's probably halfway to this already.

Jason Kilar, former head of WarnerMedia back when HBO Max launched, is saying something similar: a Spotify model for all streaming TV and movies.


Although I don't know if he's even thinking that there would be competitors in the way that Spotify competes against Apple Music, YouTube Music and Amazon Music, with all of them having basically the same library of songs.

I frankly don't understand how his concept would work, though. With those music services, it's one price for *everything* in the music catalog. What would be the cost of a similar TV and movies service powered by all the traditional Hollywood studios (plus, I guess, Netflix, Amazon and Apple too)?

I don't really understand how this concept is different from, say, DirecTV's Premier package (the one with every channel they offer, including all the premiums). That has a regular price of $208/mo including fees (and comes with a 2-yr contract when you sign up). But, of course, it does not include the content from Netflix, Prime Video or Apple TV+, so I guess we'd need to tack on another $26/mo for those services (with ads on Netflix and Prime). That comes to a total of $234. Oh wait, that package would still lack original/exclusive content from Disney+, Hulu, and Peacock so add another $18 for a total of $252.

Now, sure, there would be some kind of super-bundle discount for all that and probably lower middle-man commissions. But still, it seems hard to see how it could possibly be less than $150/mo, even assuming you could get all those competing studios to cooperate (and assuming the feds wouldn't file to shut this thing down in a heartbeat).

One of the main appeals of DTC streaming -- and the reason Netflix became so popular in the first place -- is because these services act as more affordable "mini-bundles" of content as opposed to the much more expensive traditional cable bundle that makes you pay for a lot of stuff you don't want to watch. For non-sports viewers, especially, the old bundle just isn't worth it. I can't see how the answer is to try to force everyone back to an even bigger "everything bundle".
 
I don't really understand how this concept is different from, say, DirecTV's Premier package (the one with every channel they offer, including all the premiums). That has a regular price of $208/mo including fees (and comes with a 2-yr contract when you sign up).
I think the point is that because the content is not exclusive, they don't pay a premium for the content. It's like, if you want Joe Rogan to be exclusive to Spotify, you gotta pay $250M. If you don't care about exclusivity, you just pay the content provider based on streams/views/ads generated. Just like how music is paid for. So ultimately, your costs are not as high because you're not trying to "own" any content. In the same vein, if you want the Mandalorian to be exclusive to your service, you pay $100M for it. If you don't care that others also can have it, you just pay per stream or whatever. That's how Spotify gets away with $20/mo and can deliver every song** ever made + every podcast** out there

The issues is that movies/tv are way more complicated to license than a single song, which is why this all feels very much like a pipe dream, but it's fun to think about about

**obviously not every, but you know what I'm getting at.
 
An interesting idea that the BofA analyst floated in their research note (discussed in the article above) is that WBD might make a play for Fox. Zaslav is clearly interested in another M&A deal for WBD. He kicked the tires on Paramount last December. I suspect he was most interested in CBS, given that a broadcast network (with NFL!) is the main thing lacking from the WBD portfolio. An attempt to merge the whole of WBD and Paramount would never pass government muster but if WBD just tried to buy a broadcast network (plus maybe a few cable nets), yeah, I think that would be allowed.

If he can't get CBS -- and with the Skydance deal now happening, it looks like the door has shut on that possibility, as Skydance has made clear that they see CBS as a cornerstone of Paramount -- then he should look at buying the other broadcast net with lots of NFL games: Fox.

Line up financing for a deal with Rupert Murdoch to buy all of Fox Corporation except for its Fox News Media division. (That's the part Murdoch cherishes the most anyway; he could lump it into his News Corp. which owns the WSJ and various other right-wing newspapers around the world, plus the Foxtel TV business in Australia.) This would give WBD the Fox broadcast network, its O&O locals, Fox Sports (cable's FS1, FS2, and Big 10 Network), plus the leading FAST streamer Tubi.

Maybe Warner would shake things up by renaming the broadcast network from Fox to The WB! After the network's two hours of primetime content, followed by the half-hour local newscast at 10 (9 Central), they could run a nightly hourlong "CNN Tonight" national news show, then air a late night talker starting at 11:30 (10:30 Central).

Imagine a joint venture between a Fox-fortified WBD and Paramount. They could mount a service with all of the local Sunday afternoon NFL games carried by Fox and CBS. And although Fox did renew their deal with Hulu last year to stream their current-season primetime shows there next-day, that deal is non-exclusive, so those shows could also stream on Max or whatever joint venture replaces it.
 
The issues is that movies/tv are way more complicated to license than a single song, which is why this all feels very much like a pipe dream, but it's fun to think about about
Thanks for the explanation. Yeah, I think that concept would be so fundamentally transformative to the industry that none of the existing players would risk trying it. And as a viewer, I'm afraid it would create a sort of uncurated race-to-the-bottom in terms of content quality, with *all* video entertainment essentially operating on the algorithms and economic incentives of YouTube.
 

Quick Netflix question

Paramount +

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