GOES 16 GRB downlink vs GVAR

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

I can think of 2 possible explanations of why CSPP Geo GRB requires CADU frames:
1) They wanted to reduce the processing load in their program.
2) They wanted to make it so that only select, specialized and very expensive receivers would work with their software.

1.Good point, 2. Ya, that was one of my thoughts too.

Nonetheless, I managed to adapt GRBStreamer to give the option of streaming CADU frames. It turned out to be much more difficult than I expected.

Thanks, thanks, thanks. You're doing great work Brett.

I was able to use GRBStreamer and GRBDump to capture a few GRB images.

Does GRBstreamer or GRBDump output the Netcdf files, or does it output only what you posted?

Looks like meso sectors, That's all I can tell about those images.

With a homemade septum feed and streaming software that I wrote myself, I'm certain that I now have by far the least expensive GRB receiving system in the world.

I agree, You have made it possible to receive this data quite cheaply compared to what we started with. Great job on your part.

Well...
Did some more testing here and with the new choke ring I don't see any meaningful gains from what I was using before. C/N remains at 9 dB above noise. Peaked at 9.2 C/N.
So I have gotten every bit I can out of what I built.
I did do a check on the signal's error rate decoding details and like your case there in CA. at about 6 6.5 dB C/N the DVBS-2 signal becomes unreadable, though my receiver remains locked well below that.
At around 7 dB it could consistently read the error rate info.
I am curious to know what weather01089 C/N is showing there in Boston.
It's time to figure and decide what generic receiver I want here.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

Today, @weather01089 was able to run two instances of my GRBStreamer program simultaneously streaming CADU frames, one for RHCP and the other for LHCP. He streamed both signals to CSPP-GEO software and was able to process all 16 channels of the GRB data simultaneously!

Wow impressive. That's a data load. Can't read the signal info though.

How's it working on Linux, I thought you made it for MS windows ?

 

[N6BY]

1.Good point, 2. Ya, that was one of my thoughts too.

Thanks, thanks, thanks. You're doing great work Brett.

Does GRBstreamer or GRBDump output the Netcdf files, or does it output only what you posted?

Neither one. CSPP-GEO is the one that creates Netcdf.

Looks like meso sectors, That's all I can tell about those images. ...

Yes, they are meso sectors. But I don't know where they are either. I wanted to get full disc images, but every time GRBDump was ready to create one, it crashed trying to create a 10,800 x 10,800 bitmap image.

I agree, You have made it possible to receive this data quite cheaply compared to what we started with. Great job on your part.

Thanks. Wish I could get a better signal here and make some full disc color images.

Well...
Did some more testing here and with the new choke ring I don't see any meaningful gains from what I was using before. C/N remains at 9 dB above noise. Peaked at 9.2 C/N.
So I have gotten every bit I can out of what I built.
I did do a check on the signal's error rate decoding details and like your case there in CA. at about 6 6.5 dB C/N the DVBS-2 signal becomes unreadable, though my receiver remains locked well below that.
At around 7 dB it could consistently read the error rate info.
I am curious to know what weather01089 C/N is showing there in Boston.
It's time to figure and decide what generic receiver I want here.

He reported 6.8 and 7.3 dB (using the TBS card). The DD card doesn't report C/N, but it does very well with weak signals.

 

[N6BY]

Wow impressive. That's a data load. Can't read the signal info though.

How's it working on Linux, I thought you made it for MS windows ?

He was using CSPP-GEO software running on 64-bit Linux. GRBStreamer was running on Windows streaming to his Linux box.

I think I'm going to try to get CSPP-GEO on Linux running here too.

 

[N6BY]

...
I did do a check on the signal's error rate decoding details and like your case there in CA. at about 6 6.5 dB C/N the DVBS-2 signal becomes unreadable, though my receiver remains locked well below that....

I think with the addition of a Nooelec 'Sawbird LNA/Filter' and a Digital Devices card you would be able to receive GRB.

 

[KWX]

Hi guys, being working on setting up a GRB receiving station and came across your posts. So hopefully you guys can help me out some.

I'm currently (attempting) using a 2.4m dish and I get between 6 to 6.5 C/N on my Ayecka (which unfortunately is not the GSE version of it). I do have a TBS5925 but don't see any indications it woulds support GSE (not that I've tested it).

Was thinking on upgrading the Ayecka to support GSE but from what I've been reading it appears the DD DVBS2 receiver might be better suited for it, but if I do go with something outside Ayecka then I'll need a forwarding tool since the DD doesn't appear to forward packets to GRBDump.... right?

 

[weather01089]

1.Good point, 2. Ya, that was one of my thoughts too.

I get up to 11 CN here in Western Massachusetts. Right now the dish is off aim and im testing the DD card with 6.8 and 7.6. Its doing really well. Ingesting both streams on the 2 ports.

Thanks, thanks, thanks. You're doing great work Brett.



Does GRBstreamer or GRBDump output the Netcdf files, or does it output only what you posted?

Looks like meso sectors, That's all I can tell about those images.



I agree, You have made it possible to receive this data quite cheaply compared to what we started with. Great job on your part.

Well...
Did some more testing here and with the new choke ring I don't see any meaningful gains from what I was using before. C/N remains at 9 dB above noise. Peaked at 9.2 C/N.
So I have gotten every bit I can out of what I built.
I did do a check on the signal's error rate decoding details and like your case there in CA. at about 6 6.5 dB C/N the DVBS-2 signal becomes unreadable, though my receiver remains locked well below that.
At around 7 dB it could consistently read the error rate info.
I am curious to know what weather01089 C/N is showing there in Boston.
It's time to figure and decide what generic receiver I want here.

 

[weather01089]

Today, @weather01089 was able to run two instances of my GRBStreamer program simultaneously streaming CADU frames, one for RHCP and the other for LHCP. He streamed both signals to CSPP-GEO software and was able to process all 16 channels of the GRB data simultaneously!

View attachment 130947

As for me, I'm waiting for delivery of my Digital devices card and hoping it cures my problem with marginal reception. If not, I'll have to wait for GOES WEST this summer. With reception of all channels it is possible to combine them and generate natural color images. I really look forward to doing that here soon.

Indeed, has been running for a day. Data overload lol. Ill post some jmages working on scripts.

 

[weather01089]

Hi guys, being working on setting up a GRB receiving station and came across your posts. So hopefully you guys can help me out some.

I'm currently (attempting) using a 2.4m dish and I get between 6 to 6.5 C/N on my Ayecka (which unfortunately is not the GSE version of it). I do have a TBS5925 but don't see any indications it woulds support GSE (not that I've tested it).

Was thinking on upgrading the Ayecka to support GSE but from what I've been reading it appears the DD DVBS2 receiver might be better suited for it, but if I do go with something outside Ayecka then I'll need a forwarding tool since the DD doesn't appear to forward packets to GRBDump.... right?

The Ayecka sometimes takes an hour to lock, its inferior to the DD vard.

 

[weather01089]

I have been looking/thinking about the septum feed and due to it's design I'm thinking that it's splitting the signal between both probes (as it should) all the time. The same that when you breathe in/out your nose (when it not plugged up) and the air is divided between the septum.
My original thought was that there wouldn't be a signal reduction unless both probes were used.
This is what have experienced in the past with splitting coax, The signal didn't change until both receivers were put on as a load.
Due to the septum feed waveguide already by design divides the signal (My theory). If this is indeed the case that feed is dividing the 10' dish signal by 2 plus any losses that come with it.
With what I have tested there's not enough signal on a 10' dish to do that. The result is lowering the signal level right to the noise floor.Which would explain the signal reduction from 9 dB C/N (2 probe feed) to no lock condition with that septum feed I tested. That's at least a 2-3 dB in signal reduction.
6-6.5 dB C/N is as low as you can go which you are at Brett. Any slight change in path loss, atmospheric conditions or noise level could cause you to lose lock.
The septum may work good enough in Boston but in your area it's at threshold.
I will recommend that you make yourself a combined 2 probe feed. If my theory is correct you should have a signal level of around 8 dB or better C/N with it which will get you a solid lock on one side.
Unless you know of anybody that is using a 10' dish to get both polarization's, I have never expected to do that with a 10' dish as it would require two 10' dishes or a 12' dish to overcome the C/N factor with GRB.
Again the septum is dividing it weather you are using the other side or not.
That's why I'm sticking with my combined 2 probe feed here as I move forward with this project.



Considering that you are right at the noise floor I would consider it to be doing pretty good overall. Though as I stated before another card could help that issue but you are playing a close call with the carrier so close to the noise floor. Could be worse too with another card.



It don't show the C/N level? Wow. How do you know what your signal quality is. Ya, not all support blind scan.
Before you spend that much money on another card try building the 2 probe feed.

Im using a septum feed, works great with a 10ft recycled tvro dish.

 

[KWX]

The Ayecka sometimes takes an hour to lock, its inferior to the DD vard.

Thanks for the info. I'll order a DD card instead of using that money to upgrade the Ayecka. In regards the app, N6BY would it be possible to get a copy of the executable since you have a working copy that is proven to work?

 

[N6BY]

Thanks for the info. I'll order a DD card instead of using that money to upgrade the Ayecka. In regards the app, N6BY would it be possible to get a copy of the executable since you have a working copy that is proven to work?

Certainly, the latest version is here: http://naturalgfx.com/GRBStreamer.zip It should work with your TBS5925, but that has not been confirmed yet. Only the TBS6983, TBS6903, and the Digital Devices Cine S2 V7A card have been tried and known to work. But the Digital Devices card does much better than TBS at not losing frames

You will also need 'streamreader.dll'. Please see the 'instructions.txt' file for information on where to find it and how to install it. And be sure to use the 'streamreader.ini' file that accompanies GRBStreamer, not the one that comes with streamreader.dll.

Also you may need some of the Microsoft redistributable libraries.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

I'm glad to see weather01089 on here.

Weather01089 what Linux system are you running there with hardware details if you would detail please?
I know of no one that's using CSPP-GEO software other then Gov, or Universities.
I posted a while back the hardware needed to make such a required computer and it wasn't cheap. High end gaming computer.
I am most curious to know what it's running on as the sys. requirements are quite impressive.

2 dB C/N difference from there to here. Interesting.
Thanks for all your info and coming on here, welcome.

I think I'm going to try to get CSPP-GEO on Linux running here too.

CSPP-GEO is a very nice piece of software.
Again Thanks for the info.

I think with the addition of a Nooelec 'Sawbird LNA/Filter' and a Digital Devices card you would be able to receive GRB.

Mabie but I have one serious problem at the moment. I have no computer that has card slots for such.
I have been using a laptop for all the work so far as I take it to the dish to get the info.
One of my preferred requirements is that the receiver is to be a separate item of the computer. I had no plan of using the card version, but that could change.

I did find another card that's fair to the CC line card
that does have blind search, there a a couple of choices. Don't know how that they would work, but fully support generic stream.
PRO OMICOM S2 PCI V.# card
A cheaper one, OMICOM S2 PCI

So hopefully you guys can help me out some.

I'm currently (attempting) using a 2.4m dish and I get between 6 to 6.5 C/N on my Ayecka (which unfortunately is not the GSE version of it). I do have a TBS5925 but don't see any indications it woulds support GSE (not that I've tested it).

Was thinking on upgrading the Ayecka to support GSE but from what I've been reading it appears the DD DVBS2 receiver might be better suited for it,

Welcome to the discussion. Your right in the middle of us setting up such. So stay tuned to the forum.
That dish might work on the East COUNUS but I don't know. I do know that your at signal threshold there with a 6-6.5 C/N. That's what Brett is getting there in CA and it's touch and go.
The TBS5925 is the usb version of the cards that some of the guys have been using. I was kinda looking at the TBS5927. The 5925 will do the generic stream so I'd give it a try. As Brett said no has tried it yet so let us know.
Ayecka is wearing me thin as I had communication with them and after they wanted to know how many receivers I was going to buy (I told them 1) they seem not to want to talk to me anymore. From what I have been reading and getting from others and them as well they have been eliminated from my choices. They seem not to want to answer questions about their products, so I figure the support is just as equal. I don't spend that kind of $$ to be stuck with no support. I recommend you move on from them. Anybody else as well.

Weather 01089 said- I get up to 11 CN here in Western Massachusetts. Right now the dish is off aim and im testing the DD card with 6.8 and 7.6. Its doing really well. Ingesting both streams on the 2 ports

Excellent!

Indeed, has been running for a day. Data overload lol.

I don't know how you're keeping up with viewing all the products as it's just a lot. Ya, data overload is right.
You can watch your storage drive fill...

its inferior to the DD card.

So is their customer service.

Im using a septum feed, works great with a 10ft recycled tvro dish.

Same here with the 10' used dish, bought it for $25. Had to do some work on it but it's doing the job.
Well, the septum feed does work from what I'm reading here so I take back what I claimed earlier. But I'm going to stick with my combined 2 probe feed anyway. I only want to get the LHCP side anyway as the RHCP don't have much that I'm too interested in.

Brett, would there be any chance that the GRBStreamer code you made could be compiled on a Linux box?
Your thoughts...

 

[N6BY]

...
I know of no one that's using CSPP-GEO software other then Gov, or Universities....

I think its because its complex and it requires specialized (expensive) DVB receivers that create CADU streams. Free software to accomplish that on a low cost card is one of the benefits of belonging to Satellite Guys University.

...
Brett, would there be any chance that the GRBStreamer code you made could be compiled on a Linux box?
Your thoughts...

It will need a rewrite because Linux uses the V4L (Video for Linux) interface. The windows version uses streamreader.dll which has different function calls. But the code to process the raw data once it has been received from the card should be the same.

So I will have to learn the V4L interface and familiarize myself with Linux, which I have not yet programmed.

 

[KWX]

...

Thanks!!!. As expected from a 6 to 6.5 signal, I'm getting some sync errors. ~2% with BBFrames selected and when CADU is selected then is ~0.5%.

There's an interesting behavior though, on the same machine I'm testing the TBS5925 on, which also has a "Hauppauge 723x BDA ATSC/QAM Tuner" PCIe card installed. GRBStreamer won't lock using the TBS5925 selection from the list box, but instead it will lock if I choose the "Hauppauge 723x BDA ATSC/QAM Tuner"... crazy. Of course, this won't be the intended "server" I'll be running it from but interesting behavior.

Tomorrow, I'll try a 3m dish I have for my AWIPSII setup which uses the NOAAPORT feed and see how it goes when I point it GOES16. I guess worst case scenario, in the event that I can't squeeze any more CN out of the 2.4m to just have them swap roles.

 

[N6BY]

...
There's an interesting behavior though, on the same machine I'm testing the TBS5925 on, which also has a "Hauppauge 723x BDA ATSC/QAM Tuner" PCIe card installed. GRBStreamer won't lock using the TBS5925 selection from the list box, but instead it will lock if I choose the "Hauppauge 723x BDA ATSC/QAM Tuner"... crazy. Of course, this won't be the intended "server" I'll be running it from but interesting behavior...

Do you think its locking the ATSC signal using the Hauppauge card or is GRBStreamer getting its devices confused?

Also was wondering if you are using a septum feed on your dish or something else.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

I think its because its complex and it requires specialized (expensive) DVB receivers that create CADU streams. Free software to accomplish that on a low cost card is one of the benefits of belonging to Satellite Guys University.

The reality of it's that when most purchase a GRB station they get the whole thing so they don't need to worry about compatibility or anything else. And they pay for it too $$.
The CSPP-GEO software is quite a bit of code that is available at no price to use. So in our case we use it and make it work.
That software was made with us (personal user) not in their mind and they made it for their use.
Satellite Guys University bridges that gap, The users have knowledge and the tools/resources to do so.
I completely agree with your statement Brett.

So I will have to learn the V4L interface and familiarize myself with Linux, which I have not yet programmed.

Sounds like a task. I figured that it wasn't a direct crossover. Well I'd thought I'd would ask.
That'd be great if you decide to take it on.

I was surprised to see such a signal difference between Weather01089 and me. That antenna on GOES 16 must be more directional then the one that was on GOES 13. That would also explain why it's harder to get it out there in CA. Assuming that there's another Min. 2 db C/N drop between Brett and me that would take the signal level to 7 dB C/N. Wayy too close to signal threshold.

Regarding KNX and his TBS5925. The one issue I've read about with that unit is over time (use) it does have a possible stability problem due to it getting hot.
That's why the TBS5927 has a case fan.
See link: Best digital satellite TV receiver picture
A small fan blowing on the unit should easily solve that problem.
I'd like to know how I works for GRB. Seems to work fine for EUMETCast service.

Tomorrow, I'll try a 3m dish I have for my AWIPSII setup which uses the NOAAPORT feed and see how it goes when I point it GOES16. I guess worst case scenario, in the event that I can't squeeze any more CN out of the 2.4m to just have them swap roles.

I would recommend that you go to the 10' dish for GRB as it's been the best choice for use. Since NOAAPORT has moved to Galaxy it's about 2 dB stronger.
I (think) NOAAPORT will work on the smaller dish there on the ECOUNUS.

 

[N6BY]

...
I was surprised to see such a signal difference between Weather01089 and me. That antenna on GOES 16 must be more directional then the one that was on GOES 13. That would also explain why it's harder to get it out there in CA. Assuming that there's another Min. 2 db C/N drop between Brett and me that would take the signal level to 7 dB C/N. Wayy too close to signal threshold.....

Yes, I agree that location really matters for GOES 16 reception. Probably most of the loss is due to my west longitude. But some of the loss could be that part of my septum feed is less than optimal. Weather's septum feed was professionally built by RF Ham designs, and they know what they are doing. It uses inverted cones as probes, but mine is 1/4" aluminum rods. My septum probably has some design flaws, and the only way to improve it is trial and error. I may go back to the Quaker cantenna idea, but with 2 probes and a 1/4 wavelength longer cable on one of them.

Another possibility is QRM here. Probably why I have very poor signal quality during the day. Have to wait till night when people get off their cellphones, and all the solar panels in my neighborhood are off. But images of the earth at night are very dull -- not what I was hoping for. Might have to wait for GOES WEST.

 

[GOES 12 GVAR user]

In the info sheets on GOES 16 they didn't talk much about the TX antenna for GRB. They only showed the coverage area. The COUNS was in that area.
So, I figured that the CONUS should be fairly uniform in coverage, as the way it's been. With a 4 dB min. between East and West boy was I wrong!
Makes you think, there are stations in Canada receiving this as well. Wonder how big their antenna's are up there?
Don't discount yourself there Brett, dish feeds ARE trail and error. Waveguides are funny things and can operate strangely. Their theory is complex and there are still things being learned about their behavior.
I can tell you this for sure that the higher the performance of the feed the pickier it is about everything. Precision is hard to get. Lots of compromise.
As for Weather's he is in a much stronger signal area and that could have a major difference over yours and mine in terms of performance.
I don't think that the (lack of) cone antennas are causing any issues. I have seen many pictures of just rod used. So I think your good there.
But I'm not sure that length of the feed it's self could be a major issue. I do think that there is something important about that. I see that some of the feeds have tuning Caps (threaded rods with disks) at the closed end of the feed for tuning, could that help, maybe, but again I don't know. Trial and error is right.
Mine was made from two different designs, the septum was from 1 and the feed from the other.
As they say, "back to the drawing board"
Though I think yours is closer than mine, I like to know how it preforms when GOES West is replaced with the new type satellite.
That's fine to make your own combiner, just remember to calculate the velocity factor of the coax in to the measurements.
Funny, I have left that part out of my measurement at times and it don't work.

Another possibility is QRM here. Probably why I have very poor signal quality during the day. Have to wait till night when people get off their cellphones, and all the solar panels in my neighborhood are off.

One way to determine such, is look at the spectrum on your SDR with the dish off the bird but still at elevation. Look at it with no signal and see if the noise floor changes between day and night.

But images of the earth at night are very dull -- not what I was hoping for.

What do you mean by dull? Do you mean B/W?
Also depends on what channels you are receiving.
The 11.2 um (14) is the best for night.
Seconded best is the 10.35 um channel (13).

 

[N6BY]

.. I see that some of the feeds have tuning Caps (threaded rods with disks) at the closed end of the feed for tuning, could that help, maybe, but again I don't know. Trial and error is right.
Mine was made from two different designs, the septum was from 1 and the feed from the other.
As they say, "back to the drawing board"
Though I think yours is closer than mine, I like to know how it preforms when GOES West is replaced with the new type satellite.
That's fine to make your own combiner, just remember to calculate the velocity factor of the coax in to the measurements.
Funny, I have left that part out of my measurement at times and it don't work.

Thanks for reminding me about the velocity factor. I had completely forgotten about it. Just looked it up and its about 80% for RG6. So the wavelength is 0.8 * wavelength in space.

Also, as you probably already know, the wavelength in the wave guide is longer than in free space.

...What do you mean by dull? Do you mean B/W?
Also depends on what channels you are receiving.
The 11.2 um (14) is the best for night.
Seconded best is the 10.35 um channel (13).

By dull I meant that there is no visible earth surface and dark, grey images.

Also, I haven't gotten a full disc image because the Windows version of GRBDump crashes when it tries to save them.

My goal is full disc color images in daylight. I know it will require combining channels.