First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter

[Anole]

how sharp is your PAL ?

A couple of times I've spotted a line of noise at the top of a letterboxed image, but it doesn't seem to be a frequent problem.

So is this the problem with VBI being displayed across the top of 4:3 content that's being displayed in 16:9 broadcasts?

Yea, that was my impression, too.
I deal with the VBI all the time when making DVDs and then playing them on HD TV sets.
Don't really consider it a fault, but if someone should fix it, I won't bitch. -
I cannot believe the people who get up at arms over it.

Great review by the way

I thought so , too.
Good to see what others have uncovered, focused on, and detected.
Well written, very comprehensive, and explored new ground. - :up
Hopefully more writers, regardless of their reporting skills, will come forward with their impressions, too.
Relative signal sensitivity and picture sharpness* are areas worth more discussion.

Here's a little something I wrote up yesterday, and forgot to post:


* How sharp is YOUR pal?

As for this whole BS about a soft picture...
Dish locals have gotten very soft over the last several years.!!
It's due to rolling out locals for every yocal out there!
I can see them making a concerted effort to not have the DTVpal provide a sharper local signal than their satellite.

Is the video roll-off just a simple component change in the box?
Perhaps a little fudging can restore a more peaky/jaggy/sharper look.
Or, would that require a programming change, if the video filtering is all electronic?

But at any rate, how the picture looks on an HD set is immaterial.
How it looks on a real (medium to old) analog set using RCA cables is what's important.
And while I don't generally recommend use of the modulator... it is probably worth testing any sharpness fix, to see if it applies to both RCA outputs and the Ch3 signal.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Timer does NOT work when DTVPal is turned off via remote

So is this the problem with VBI being displayed across the top of 4:3 content that's being displayed in 16:9 broadcasts?

If so then that problem was not fixed in the newer 101 software version

You did say that you had software version F101TCGH-N so I guess you are confirming that it will turn the box on with a timer but not in PassThru mode.

Great review by the way

Glad you liked the review.

Yes, what I saw is probably the VBI people are talking about, right at the top of the image, below the black band from letterboxing. Maybe I'm not seeing it much because I'm not using NORMAL mode much on 16:9 programs while testing on the HDTV. (FULL mode works better on a widescreen TV.) I'll keep looking.

Yes, I have the 101 software versions on both DTVPals.

NO, I did not confirm it will turn on with a timer.

I said it worked when I left the DTVPal ON (and DTVPal was left on a different channel than the one I wanted to record, but the timer switched to the correct channel).

You're correct that I said it did NOT work correctly when left in Analog Pass Through mode (but I only did one test -- got sound and no picture).

And I said I'd be testing it overnight, after turning the DTVPal off with the remote. I did, and it failed. I'll repeat the update I added to my review here:

UPDATE: The timer did NOT work overnight after I'd turned the DTVPal off via the remote. There's one hope left -- that it will turn back on after it turns itself off. But to test that takes over 4 hours for each test! Watch for more updates. . . eventually.

If you have to keep the DTVPal on for timers to work, and you only want to record one program, you can just set it to the channel you want to record in the first place, and skip setting a timer, just like any other coupon box. But the DTVPal timer will still be useful for the 2nd thru 6th recordings on different channels. And you could set the timer for the 1st recording just so you don't have to worry about remembering what channel the DTVPal should be left on at the time you leave it unattended. But regardless, you will still have to remember to leave it on and, if necessary, to deactivate the Inactivity Standby.

This is looking like a MAJOR MAJOR Bug, much bigger that the Major Search Bug I described [STRIKE]below[/STRIKE] in the review.

 

[pabeader]

it appears that there are two versions of the software. one that turns the Pal on and one that doesn"t.

 

[Smith P.]

Using a term VBI is not correct way to describe those 'dots' at upper lines of screen.

It is some DATA ( search for "Line 24"): time stamp or/and CC bits.

 

[Malouff]

A guy who read the manual,

I am getting confused here.
Both you and Rick have the F101TCGH-N software

He says his timer will turn the DTVPal on.
You said that yours doesn't

pabeader do you know anything more about this, and what does your system info have?

Here is Scott's system info for reference.

Model ID: DTVPal
Receiver ID: R1647315381-82
Software Version: F100TCGH-N
Boot Strap Version: 1812TCGH
Processor ID: 28393012

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Yes, I have 101 software and the timer won't turn DTVPal on

A guy who read the manual,

I am getting confused here.
Both you and Rick have the F101TCGH-N software

He says his timer will turn the DTVPal on.
You said that yours doesn't

pabeader do you know anything more about this, and what does your system info have?

Here is Scott's system info for reference.

Model ID: DTVPal
Receiver ID: R1647315381-82
Software Version: F100TCGH-N
Boot Strap Version: 1812TCGH
Processor ID: 28393012

I think you (and others) may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. I'm not convinced the difference is the software version at all. I'll give you the full System Info below, but it will probably take some work and cooperation to get to the bottom of this.

I was using a Mon-Fri timer. Maybe it's just that Mon-Fri timers don't work?!? Who knows at this point?

An interesting thing happened today. I had been doing my testing each night with the same Mon-Fri timer. When I turned the DTVPal on today, the timer page said "No Timers Set" -- the Mon-Fri timer is gone! It had been set for 6:29-7:01 AM Mon-Fri, at least through late last night. Did the DTVPal think it was "DONE" because it is now after 7:01 Friday? What about Mon-Fri in future weeks?!?!?

I think we have to take notes and report all this information to find out what combination makes the timer work:

Timer setting method (choose one):

Create From Scratch/Selection From Guide "As Is" (Once)/Guide - Change Frequency ONLY/Guide - Edit More (Time, Date, Duration, Channel)​

Timer Frequency (choose one):

Once/Daily/Weekly/Mon-Fri​

Inactivity Standby Setting (choose one):

Disable/4 hours/5 hours/6 hours/7 hours/8 hours​

Date & time that timer was last edited (or created, if never edited):

July xx, 2008 x:xx AM/PM​

Did other timers appear in the timer list? (choose one):

No/Yes, other timers had been set earlier/Yes, other timers were added afterward/Yes, both​

Date & time that timer was set for (if Daily, Weekly, or Mon-Fri, indicate first trigger):

July xx, 2008 x:xx AM/PM​

What was the timer duration?

xxx​

Was DTVPal turned off or put in Analog Pass Though using the remote? (choose one):

Left On/Turned Off/Put in Analog Pass Through​

If "Left On," at what date & time was DTVPal left to go "inactive"?

July xx, 2008 x:xx AM/PM​

Did the timer work? (choose one):

Yes, I saw it work/Yes, I recorded its output/No, it failed/*RATS*!, I wasn't there to see what happened!​

If it failed, please describe the failure:

< description here >​

Please provide your System Info (optional if you have posted it already):

< System Info here >​

==========

Now, here's my System Info for what it's worth. . .

First on the DTVPal in the kitchen (I haven't done much timer testing on this one):
Model ID: DTVPal
Receiver ID: R1647365327-45
Software Version: F101TCGH-N
Boot Strap Version: 1812TCGH
Processor ID: 28391124

Next, the one connected to the VCR & HDTV (all timer testing so far is being done on this one):
Model ID: DTVPal
Receiver ID: R1647368398-00
Software Version: F101TCGH-N
Boot Strap Version: 1812TCGH
Processor ID: 28388718

My Receiver IDs and Software Version are higher numbers than what you quoted from Scott, but my Processor IDs are LOWER numbers. It seems to me that this is all inconclusive so far.

UPDATE: I'm not following my own rules for complete reporting, but I just did a quick test. At about 3:12 I set a timer for 3:29, completely MANUALLY, NOT through the Guide. I turned the DTVPal off at 3:15. It worked; it turned on at 3:29. So there is hope. We just have to isolate what set-up conditions do work and which don't.

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Once again, the DTVPal proves that it IS the TR-40!

For anyone who has been convinced by DISH that the DTVPal is not THE TR-40, but is a "different" box. . .

For anyone who believes that what had been promised by Sling Media since January is "different" from the DTVPal, and will suddenly be unveiled and arrive in stores as early as August 8. . .

Have I got news for you!

Look at what I just noticed on the UPS shipping label that DISH (a.k.a. dtvpal.com) sticks on the DTVPal boxes they ship:

Right below the large bar code:

1st Line - ORD#: xxxxxxxx . . . DOC: xxxxxxx . . . |RA#| xxxxxxxx-001

2nd Line - PART#: 159365 :shocked :yikes

Yes, this is THE part number for the "Sling Media TR-40" that can be found listed (but not in stock) at many online stores: ( google link )

Secret Agent Box strikes again!
vid1 : They're giving back your number, and takin' away your name : vid3
Odds are you won't see store shelves tomorrow
^ lyrics at bottom of linked post ^
(. . .but maybe once they've sold all they can at $60+. . .)​

 

[Malouff]

Thank you for the timer update A guy who read the manual.

Strange about the Monday-Friday timer being deactivated.
It sounds STUPID to have to set every week.

About your update what type of manual timer did you set?
Was it a Monday-Friday?

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Hey, all of a sudden I'm Weird Al Yankovic or something. . .

Sung to the tune of "Jenny (867-5309)":

DTV-Pal, who can I turn to?
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive
You're the box that that I can hold on to
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive

Pal-lee, I've got your number
I'm gonna make you my-ine
Pal-lee, don't change that number
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive

I've seen your number, written on the net
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive
Your cousin TR-40's still delayed, I'll bet
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive

Pal-lee, I've got your number
I'm gonna make you my-ine
Pal-lee, don't change that number
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive
One Five Ny-ee-ine Three Six Fy-ee-i-ive

 

[A guy who read the manual]

"Once" upon a timer. . .

Thank you for the timer update A guy who read the manual.

Strange about the Monday-Friday timer being deactivated.
It sounds STUPID to have to set every week.

About your update what type of manual timer did you set?
Was it a Monday-Friday?

The timer that worked on a turned-off DTVPal was a Once timer, set manually (using the "Create" button at Menu>Setup>Timers).

I'll set two Mon-Fri timers for later today, one manually and one via the Guide.
Two things that will be interesting to watch for:
1) will they work?
2) will they disappear after their time passes (since this is Friday)?

I may post the results of the above tonight, but then I'm going to do a bunch of testing to see if I can figure out definitively what works and what doesn't before I post anything on this topic again. Please be patient over the weekend; it may take a couple of days or more to reach any conclusions.

 

[Corgan]

* How sharp is YOUR pal?

As for this whole BS about a soft picture...
Dish locals have gotten very soft over the last several years.!!
It's due to rolling out locals for every yocal out there!
I can see them making a concerted effort to not have the DTVpal provide a sharper local signal than their satellite.

Is the video roll-off just a simple component change in the box?
Perhaps a little fudging can restore a more peaky/jaggy/sharper look.
Or, would that require a programming change, if the video filtering is all electronic?

But at any rate, how the picture looks on an HD set is immaterial.
How it looks on a real (medium to old) analog set using RCA cables is what's important.
And while I don't generally recommend use of the modulator... it is probably worth testing any sharpness fix, to see if it applies to both RCA outputs and the Ch3 signal.

Inquiring minds want to know.

This is the smooth picture I've noted in my prior posts. I'm using the DTVPal with a JVC I'Art set from the early 2000s and composite cables, and the softness is rediculously noticable (and nervewracking).

While I love the audio quality and the guide on the DTVPal, the video is paling in comparison to the DTT900 I got with my first coupon. The DTT900 is just far more sharp.

Though I suspect it is the fault of software, if (as Anole asks) anyone knows how to fix this with a dirty hardware hack, let us know. I'd be willing to crack it open for a sharper picture.

Otherwise, I almost regret the purchase.

P.S. (I too can vouch for the noise [which someone noted was programming data] on the upper part of the screen)

 

[Smith P.]

<...>Though I suspect it is the fault of software, if (as Anole asks) anyone knows how to fix this with a dirty hardware hack, let us know. I'd be willing to crack it open for a sharper picture.

Otherwise, I almost regret the purchase.

Could you do that righ now ? And post pictures here ?

 

[Corgan]

Could you do that righ now ? And post pictures here ?

Haha. Should have seen that coming.

Since the family relies on this box, and I don't have the cash for a new DTT900 in case I do something stupid, no.

BUT...but...

If I ever do crack it open - maybe feeling adventurous or there's promise that there is a hardware hack - you have my word I'll post a whole string of DTVPal upskirts here.

 

[Smith P.]

Well, I have feeling I'll see that info long before your future brave move.

 

[Malouff]

Corgan, I don't know how to modify the DTVPal.
Looks like you will have to wait for someone who knows how to hack hardware to get one.

Not to give you false hope but maybe pictures would help others who know how to modify the hardware can get started with some suggestions.

Remember, if you do decide to take it appart it was Smith, P's idea.

By the way anyone know how to take it appart?
Looks like there are a few plastic tabs and maybe screws hidden under the black pads.

It would be nice if Steve (c0nsumer) from the AVS Forum would get one and do the same thing with it like he did for the Zenith DTT900.
Photo's of his Zenith teardown

 

[Corgan]

Malouff:

I know you're right on that. I may have to take one for the team. As soon as I can find time when the family won't need the box (maybe early next week) I might consider opening it and taking photos to give any hacks or analysis a head start.

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Hey, Youz TVGOS Guyz!

Unfortunately, at the top of page 24, the words
". . .then System Setup, TV Guide Setup, then TV Guide & Guide +"
are misleading, and (as far as I can tell) should actually say
". . .then System Setup, then TV Guide & Guide +. Then select Continue. Then confirm by selecting Yes. Your TV screen will go dark for 30 seconds or so while the DTVPal reboots. This completes the setup on the DTVPal. Put your DTVPal remote aside. The rest of the setup will be done through your Guide-enabled device."

Unfortunately, on Page 25 of the manual, there's a heading that says "Set Up Your DTVPal", but your DTVPal is ALREADY set up and EVERYTHING ON THIS PAGE IS ABOUT SETTING UP YOUR GUIDE DEVICE.

Forgive the yelling that follows, I'm trying to get the TVGOS people over at avsforum.com to hear me.

Hey! TRY THESE STEPS:

• If your DTVPal is off (no light), it is probably in normal mode, NOT TVGOS mode. Turn it on.
• Check if your DTVPal is in normal mode by pressing the Select button.
  • If you get either a message about lost signals OR are viewing a channel with info at the top of the screen, you are in normal mode, NOT TVGOS mode. STAY THERE for now.
  • If you get a "Confirmation" message, you are in TVGOS mode. You must temporarily go back into normal mode, so push RIGHT (or LEFT twice) to change from No to Yes, then press SELECT to select Yes. Be patient as the DTVPal reboots into normal mode, first with a few seconds of blank screen followed by a few seconds of collecting data for the Guide (or trying to).
• Go to Menu>Setup>System Setup>Installation>Zip Code Setup
• Enter your REAL zip code here, NOT the Substitute Zip Code from the User Guide (you can punch it in with the number buttons; using direction buttons is not required).
• Select Done, then select Cancel on-screen OR press the remote's CANCEL button to go back to the previous menu screen.
• Select TV Guide & Guide +.
• Select Continue.
• Select Yes.
• Wait patiently while the DTVPal reboots, initially with 30 seconds or so of blank screen.
• Put your DTVPal remote aside. You are finished with it for now. The rest will be done using your "Guide-enabled device."
• NOW continue by setting up the G-LINK cable and the Guide device as described on pages 24 through 27. Note that page 25 is NOT telling you to enter the Substitute Zip Code into the DTVPal, but ONLY into your Guide device.

I hope this works for you. If it doesn't, the CBS station in your area may not be carrying digital TVGOS data.

Update: Thanks to Tim Malouff for posting a partial quote from this post at avsforum. (I didn't ask him directly to do it, but I guess he took the "yelling" above as a hint.) Unfortunately, it didn't help oregonalex, but he may not be in a digital TVGOS market. I saw that list of markets once, too, but I couldn't recall where. Google to the rescue. I turned up this post, right here at satelliteguys.us: www.satelliteguys.us/1402619-post110.html

 

[Smith P.]

<...>By the way anyone know how to take it appart?
Looks like there are a few plastic tabs and maybe screws hidden under the black pads.

It would be nice if Steve (c0nsumer) from the AVS Forum would get one and do the same thing with it like he did for the Zenith DTT900.
Photo's of his Zenith teardown

Steve is little off of his knowledge - that EEPROM 24LC256 CAN'T hold bootstrap. Everything is in a flash chip (24LV160);
the EEPROM [NVRAM] holding current settings, channel's map.
The DTT900 main PCB practically same as in Venturer.

 

[A guy who read the manual]

Gradually figuring out the timer problem. . .

The timer that worked on a turned-off DTVPal was a Once timer, set manually (using the "Create" button at Menu>Setup>Timers).

I'll set two Mon-Fri timers for later today, one manually and one via the Guide.
Two things that will be interesting to watch for:
1) will they work?
2) will they disappear after their time passes (since this is Friday)?

I may post the results of the above tonight, but then I'm going to do a bunch of testing to see if I can figure out definitively what works and what doesn't before I post anything on this topic again. Please be patient over the weekend; it may take a couple of days or more to reach any conclusions.

Tonight's tests produced some interesting and unexpected results.

First, I set a Mon-Fri timer manually with a duration of 10 minutes and turned the DTVPal off. I set the VCR to start taping 4 minutes earlier than the timer was set, because for testing purposes, I wanted to record the countdown. It worked, but not perfectly. The DTVPal came on two minutes ahead, but the countdown timer didn't appear until 1:32. Then it didn't update until 1:25. It kept skipping a few seconds at a time. When it finally got down to 0, it said Now! (as usual), but the Now! icon stayed there for the full 10 minutes of taping. (Yeah, I know. More stupid, unpredictable behavior to sort out.)

Before doing the first test, I had been goofing around putting the DTVPal in and out of TVGOS mode several times (see previous post). I thought this might somehow be to blame for the odd behavior, but after the 2nd test I'm not so sure.

Unlike my experience with the 6:29-7:01 AM Mon-Fri timer this morning, tonight's first Mon-Fri timer setting did not disappear after the test; I've left it in the timer list to see how long it sticks around.

Anyway, I went ahead with the second test. I set another Mon-Fri timer, this time starting by selecting a future program from the Guide, then editing it, changing Frequency from Once to Mon-Fri and moving up the start time, and shortening duration to 10 minutes. Again, I turned the DTVPal off. Then, once again I set the VCR to start taping 4 minutes earlier. This time it worked perfectly. The DTVPal came on and the timer icon appeared at 2:00 and counted down EACH second, not skipping erratically. The Now! icon only appeared for about 3 seconds, followed by the top-of-screen info display for about 3 seconds, and then there was a normal, unobstructed picture for the rest of the tape.

And, once again, the Mon-Fri timer setting did not disappear. Both timer settings are still sitting in the timer event listings.

My latest guess for why the countdown was erratic the first time is that the DTVPal was trying to load Guide data right after it turned on. The second test may have been close enough after the first that Guide data did not have to be loaded again.

Here's a suggested procedure that might just work for people that aren't having luck with the timer:

• IMPORTANT: Unplug the DTVPal for about 30 seconds and plug it back in to give it a fresh start. This should not erase your set up. (At least it doesn't for me.) You will have to wait through a few seconds of blank-screen rebooting and a few more seconds of loading data for the guide, but all your previously located and/or renamed channels will still be there. (Even those two Mon-Fri timers I had set tonight are still there. I also noticed the Guide started working much faster after I did this.)
• Set up to 4 timer events however you want, manually or starting from the guide, but leaving one timer slot open.
• When you're done with the DTVPal and ready to turn it off, do the following two steps first. . .
• If at this point you've had the DTVPal turned on for a several hours since that last 30-second unplug, you may want to do another 30-second unplug here, just to be safe. After the DTVPal starts back up, check that all your timer settings are still there.
• Now manually set a "warm up" timer for about half an hour before your first "real" timer event. Set the duration to something under half an hour, say 10 minutes, so there's no conflict with your "real" timer events. If this warm up timer goes screwy, maybe your "real" timers will correct the problem.
• And now, turn off the DTVPal.

This procedure hasn't been tested thoroughly yet, but I think it's at least something worth trying.

I'll be doing a lot of testing, and I'll have an update by Monday or Tuesday. Happy 4th of July weekend to you all.

 

[Malouff]

A guy who read the manual,

I was thinking about the timer problem I wonder if the timer and guide update are happening around the same time and that is why you got some unexpected results.

I mean if it is turning the DTVPal on maybe the Guide update event fires first and there is a timeout for the timer event firing so it never happens or has unexpected results.

Looking forward to your more detailed results.

P.S. oregonalex at the AVS Forum said he had been following your directions and it never worked.