Court Orders Dish to Drop ALL Distant Networks

[Greg Bimson]

I live in a non O&O CBS area but I can not get any CBS OTA but my neighbor, 500 yards further up the hill can get the analog CBS OTA out of Burlington. I have always received the CBS-HD feed out of NY from Dish but NOT the distant analog feed.

Maybe I'm one of the reasons Dish got sued or maybe WCAX gave Dish an HD only waiver on my behalf OR..... maybe CBS gave Dish blanket permission to retran to me (and anyone else) because the L-R prediction model shows my address as "unserved" by analog and they can do that because all their contacts (with Dish, affiliates and everyone else) are written such that all parties agreed they can do that.....but clearly only in "white areas".

How did you get CBS HD? Did you:

1) have it automatically turned on, or;
2) request it?

If you requested it, did you:
1) have to wait some period of time before it was turned on, or;
2) have it turned on immediately?

And did you ever try to get distant analog locals?

 

[Greg Bimson]

And again, wouldn't it be likely that the network, when they contract with the owners of these programs (new or syndicated), be able to have stipulations that might govern retransmission rights to potential carriers (like satellite) such that distribution would be allowed into "white areas".

If the networks had done this for white areas, the distant network provision in the SHVA would not be needed.

Exactly! and it actually gives the network back some of the control that SHVA took away in exchange for putting more fairness into signal distribution which SHVA tried to do but was flawed because of the corruption of some in congress and the NAB.

But this implies that the contracting for syndicated fare has changed over the years. It hasn't.

Just like Tony, you and I can continue to go round-and-round on this issue. This is what I know network television distribution:

1) you can get the primary transmission of a network station if you're antenna can pick up the signal;
2) you can get local networks through cable, which has a defacto copyright exemption, but is governed by syndex and network non-duplication rules; or,
3) you can get local networks through satellite, which has either a local-into-local license copyright exemption, or you can get distant network service, which has a copyright exemption if you are in a "white area" for a network's signal.

Of course, for point 3, there is a waiver process, which can allow this signal.

It is much easier for CBS to give Dish Network a contract that is a blanket waiver with the stroke of a pen, than it is for CBS to clear the copyrights on their syndicated fare and the NFL. This one to me is Occam's razor as it is the simplest explanation.

 

[waltinvt]

How did you get CBS HD? Did you:

1) have it automatically turned on, or;
2) request it?

If you requested it, did you:
1) have to wait some period of time before it was turned on, or;
2) have it turned on immediately?

And did you ever try to get distant analog locals?

The catylist that got me into HDTV was when CBS was covering the Patriots in the SuperBowl in Feb '04. I bought the Dish HD in A Box deal and they installed it the day before the SB along with a 61.5 dish.

Getting CBS-HD was the main part of the deal, so yes, I guess I requested it and yes it was turned on immediatly.

As for distant analog locals, hmmmmm...taxing my memory now. I got Dish somewhere around '97 and I'm pretty sure I had all the distants from Boston right from the start.

Then I think they were reducing the distants down to just NY & LA and I had to loose Boston in exchange for NY. That was all before Vt locals were launched because when I did get Vt locals I dropped some of the NY distants (all but Fox I think) for a while but picked them back up again when I realized how poor the PQ was on the Vt locals.

Then last year had to choose between keeping the NY distants or Vt locals and kept the 3 NY distants which I still have.

Since Dish included the Vt HD LiLs in the group of 50 they plan to put up this year, I'll probably go with them and give up the NY analog distants.

 

[Greg Bimson]

I have always received the CBS-HD feed out of NY from Dish but NOT the distant analog feed.

That was all before Vt locals were launched because when I did get Vt locals I dropped some of the NY distants (all but Fox I think) for a while but picked them back up again when I realized how poor the PQ was on the Vt locals.

I believe you are in a white area. That means no contract is required, as everything contained in the distant network provisioning in the SHVA and its successors would allow you to receive the distant CBS HD.

Think about this one...

The amount of people in white areas that can receive a CBS distant, either analog or digital, are the same. We can say that maybe 5 percent of the nation's households can receive the distant analog CBS. But only a smaller subset of those 5 percent can receive it in HD, as households with HD sets are few and far between. So, would you, as Dish Network, uplink CBS HD for white area subs, when it may be only 1 percent of your total subscriber base? That is why the deal was done for the O&O markets; so that the CBS HD feed would be available to more people.

Like I've said, since I haven't read the agreement either, it is my belief that CBS HD is being provided to O&O only reception areas by contract with CBS, and to me the contract is a blanket waiver under the distant network laws. I know I could be wrong.

 

[waltinvt]

I believe you are in a white area. That means no contract is required, as everything contained in the distant network provisioning in the SHVA and its successors would allow you to receive the distant CBS HD.

Think about this one...

The amount of people in white areas that can receive a CBS distant, either analog or digital, are the same. We can say that maybe 5 percent of the nation's households can receive the distant analog CBS. But only a smaller subset of those 5 percent can receive it in HD, as households with HD sets are few and far between. So, would you, as Dish Network, uplink CBS HD for white area subs, when it may be only 1 percent of your total subscriber base? That is why the deal was done for the O&O markets; so that the CBS HD feed would be available to more people.

Like I've said, since I haven't read the agreement either, it is my belief that CBS HD is being provided to O&O only reception areas by contract with CBS, and to me the contract is a blanket waiver under the distant network laws. I know I could be wrong.

It's late Friday afternoon and I guess I'm pretty thick but it sounds like you're basically saying that my getting CBS-HD has nothing to do with the CBS-Dish contract - other maybe than it provides a "blanket waiver" which enables Dish to give it to me under SHVERA because I'm in a white area? But you also seem to say Dish probably wouldn't bother with white areas for HD subs because it's such a small percentage.

Does that mean it's kind of a fluke that I even have it?

 

[Greg Bimson]

But you also seem to say Dish probably wouldn't bother with white areas for HD subs because it's such a small percentage.

Which is why NBC, ABC and FOX aren't available as a distant in HD.

And yes, I'd need to look over the press release again, but I believe that the "white area" subs weren't mentioned in the press release. It doesn't make much sense to uplink the HD feeds if only the white area subs had access. Those take up quite a bit of transponder space, for the fraction of rural subs that have HD.

 

[odbrv]

Just received a response to my initial e-mail to my Senator(see 30 pages ago). It has a letter from the FCC and the complete ruling of the Court of Appeals. On page 6 of the rulings it defines 5 categories to be an 'unserved household" under SHVIA. I satisfy 2,3,and 5. Only one is needed to qualify. On page 20 the court takes all grandfathering based on October , 1999 away. You need to use current strength of signal. It does not take waivers away, yet it still says to shut down all E* distants and if a subscriber has waivers they can go to another satellite provider( see footnote 21). I have asked my senator to intercede again. The move to D* would cost thousands of dollars. I should be subsidized by E* to do this. Yet the court found E* was now doing a good job in qualifying customers and should not be found engaged in a " pattern of practice" of violations. Again, the big corporation get by free of charge and the little guy gets screwed. The ruling also talked about shutting down the distants that were part of the suit. However, the FCC letter said ABC and NBC had dropped out of the suit and E* has an agreement with CBS. Does this mean the only distants to be shut down is FOX. UPN, WB and PBS were not part of the suit either. Did we just go through 40 pages of discussion to not get Fox distants???

 

[waltinvt]

Just received a response to my initial e-mail to my Senator(see 30 pages ago). It has a letter from the FCC and the complete ruling of the Court of Appeals. On page 6 of the rulings it defines 5 categories to be an 'unserved household" under SHVIA. I satisfy 2,3,and 5. Only one is needed to qualify. On page 20 the court takes all grandfathering based on October , 1999 away. You need to use current strength of signal. It does not take waivers away, yet it still says to shut down all E* distants and if a subscriber has waivers they can go to another satellite provider( see footnote 21). I have asked my senator to intercede again. The move to D* would cost thousands of dollars. I should be subsidized by E* to do this. Yet the court found E* was now doing a good job in qualifying customers and should not be found engaged in a " pattern of practice" of violations. Again, the big corporation get by free of charge and the little guy gets screwed. The ruling also talked about shutting down the distants that were part of the suit. However, the FCC letter said ABC and NBC had dropped out of the suit and E* has an agreement with CBS. Does this mean the only distants to be shut down is FOX. UPN, WB and PBS were not part of the suit either. Did we just go through 40 pages of discussion to not get Fox distants???

No. As it stands, I believe Dish must stop broadcasting "all" distant networks as soon as the district court issues the order. Where what "all" means might possibly still be up for debate is whether CBS-HD will be included in the shut off. Greg thinks it will and Tony thinks it won't. They both make excellent cases for their opinions.

CBS-HD aside, the only chance any of this might change or be delayed (that I see) is if the "full" circut court of appeals accepts Dish's request to re-hear the appeal that was ruled on by the 3 judge panel.

I have no idea as to the current status of Dish's request nor if the court does accept, whether that could delay implementation of any shut down action by the circut court. I'm not smart enough to speculate a time frame, so maybe someone else can offer that.

 

[odbrv]

Thanks for your input. I hope you are all wrong. The FCC letter specifically mentioned the withdrawal from the suit by ABC and NBC. It hinted that when the final ruling comes down only Fox and CBS could be involved. It also hinted that the E* contract with CBS might also influence the final injunction. It also mentioned the appeal.
Let's hope it takes as long to rule on the appeal. The original civil action was filed in 2000. The ruling was 6-10-2003. The appeal was filed prior to the 9-22-2003 deadline for shutting off ineligible subscribers. The next ruling was 5-23-2006. Given this time frame , it will be 2009 before the next ruling. By that time E* should have up all locals in HD.

 

[waltinvt]

Thanks for your input. I hope you are all wrong. The FCC letter specifically mentioned the withdrawal from the suit by ABC and NBC. It hinted that when the final ruling comes down only Fox and CBS could be involved. It also hinted that the E* contract with CBS might also influence the final injunction. It also mentioned the appeal.
Let's hope it takes as long to rule on the appeal. The original civil action was filed in 2000. The ruling was 6-10-2003. The appeal was filed prior to the 9-22-2003 deadline for shutting off ineligible subscribers. The next ruling was 5-23-2006. Given this time frame , it will be 2009 before the next ruling. By that time E* should have up all locals in HD.

One would hope, except some are implying that Dish may be done with HD LiLs for the year, which I think is a huge mistake. Having all networks available at the local level is about the only thing that might minimize the CHURN if they do have to shut down distants.

Unless they're delaying adding more HD feeds to the existing LiLs in favor of getting ALL the remaining LiLs up in one form or another, which would make sense.

Personally (as I said in another thread) I think Dish must do whatever it takes to get ALL LiLs up (and as many in digital as possible) asap - even if it means dropping some niche special interest, international and shopping channels. If they don't and they do actually shut off all distants, he could loose every inch he's gained on the competition in one fell swoop.

 

[uhlesses]

Don't worry folks, there will be no change. In fact I see Locals getting better with the addition of SV channels coming to most markets. Would gladly trade my NY CBS HD channel for the SV Oklahoma City channels. Couple of posters here keep crying wolf all the time and say that the end of Dish network is near. Charlie has the situation under control and expect some good news coming from Dish around October regarding this thread about Distant Locals.

 

[waltinvt]

Don't worry folks, there will be no change. In fact I see Locals getting better with the addition of SV channels coming to most markets. Would gladly trade my NY CBS HD channel for the SV Oklahoma City channels. Couple of posters here keep crying wolf all the time and say that the end of Dish network is near. Charlie has the situation under control and expect some good news coming from Dish around October regarding this thread about Distant Locals.

If you want to have any credability here you'll have to do a whole lot better than that.

You could start by qualifing your information a little, like are you related to Charles or on "E"s VP short list.

Maybe an "E" CSR or techie told you and you haven't yet learned to take that with a grain of salt.

I'm just riding you a little but seriously, nobody but Scott gets away with comments like that and we even question him sometimes

 

[rdinkel]

Don't worry folks, there will be no change. In fact I see Locals getting better with the addition of SV channels coming to most markets. Would gladly trade my NY CBS HD channel for the SV Oklahoma City channels. Couple of posters here keep crying wolf all the time and say that the end of Dish network is near. Charlie has the situation under control and expect some good news coming from Dish around October regarding this thread about Distant Locals.

Do you think SV will be available in HD into markets that do not have HD LILs?? Like Denver stations that will be added as SV for my Colorado Springs DMA?

 

[rdinkel]

Walt, Dish seems to consider the CBS-HD as a "distant network signal" rather than a special-case delivery of CBS product, based on the following statement from the the Dish web site: "As with any distant network signal, subscribers must qualify to receive these High Definition services. This qualification is mainly a function of federal laws relating to delivery of local channels.

 

[waltinvt]

Walt, Dish seems to consider the CBS-HD as a "distant network signal" rather than a special-case delivery of CBS product, based on the following statement from the the Dish web site: "As with any distant network signal, subscribers must qualify to receive these High Definition services. This qualification is mainly a function of federal laws relating to delivery of local channels.

Yea I've read that too Bob and tend to agree with you.

I think it's always read that way though and may not necessarily be an indication of what the deal actually is. It would however seem to confirm Greg's position but Tony usually knows what he's talking about too (even though I don't always agree with him on certain other issues ) and of course I do hope he's right on this one.

It will be interresting to see how this plays out. I still think that if you could look behind the curtain on this one, you'd see 'ol Murdoch himself pulling the strings.

 

[uhlesses]

{Do you think SV will be available in HD into markets that do not have HD LILs?? } Yes. If Denver is HD, you will recieve the HD feed. You will recieve the Denver feeds if they are now on your local cable. and based on the county and zip code. For Instance I live near Lawton in Comanche County. The local cable company in Lawton and the small towns that get cable offer the Oklahoma City networks. Under SV I qualify for the OK City locals. This is easy for Dish to do at no extra cost and will probably add more customers. This is going to happen folks, whats the time frame? This fall I hope.

 

[JerseyGuy]

Are you sure Commanche County gets OK City?

Have they updated the Significantly viewed list? Because according to list on the FCC's website (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-187A2.pdf) Commanche County is page 313

There are no channels out of Oklahoma City for Comanche County.

Comanche County
KFDX Wichita Falls
KAUZ Wichita Falls
KSWO Lawton
KJTL Wichita Falls (only for parts of the county)

Its the same for my area. While cable in Monmouth county, NJ has some Philadelphia stations. Significantly viewed station list only has New York.

If cable gets them so should we.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Sorry, Bob I haven't seen or heard anything yet that would indicate we're gonna get HD coverage, even though for 3 nets, we ARE on the FCC SV list

Teller
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
KKTV, 11, Colorado Springs, CO
KRDO-TV, 13, Colorado Springs, CO

 

[rdinkel]

Sorry, Bob I haven't seen or heard anything yet that would indicate we're gonna get HD coverage, even though for 3 nets, we ARE on the FCC SV list

Also, the fine print says the SV stations must be provided at equal bandwidth as the corresponding networks in your DMA. So since Dish does not provide Colorado Springs HD, then they cannot give us Denver SV in HD, either!

 

[tnsprin]

Regarding NFL blackouts on CBSHD, JohnH has reported seeing blackouts on CBSHD East. He is located in the Phila. PA DMA, a CBS O&O market. On the other hand, I live in the Wilkes Barre, PA DMA (I have a waiver) and have never seen an NFL blackout on CBSHD. There seems to illustrate the point being discussed.

I have and I live in NY DMA. Different programs sometimes show on the OTA notably for sports events.