Compression/bandwidth on 118.7 sat

[andyg]

some of the channels look good but some of the channels the originating feed does look like crap.

Also when Dish moved from 148 to 118.7 they went from a DBS sat to a KU Band sat. KU can't have as many channels on a TP as DBS can but Dish crammed the same amount of channels on the KU sat

so 10 gallons of crap in a 10 gallon bucket.....ok
cram that same 10 gallons in a 7 gallon bucket and well......you get the drift

that makes sense. I wonder if Dish plans on "resolving" this issue somewhat, e.g. moving it to DBS again or decresing the number of channels on TPs for current ku band? All in all, they should know that the quality is pretty unacceptable...if they care

 

[DishSubLA]

Keep in mind my friends that many of the internationals were not crap PQ at 148. Some of the Indian channels did have among the worst film prints of movies, but no really bad PQ itself. Italian, Japanese, French, are just some of the channels that were not "crap" in terms of PQ. They looked really good. And this is not the 1970's, the conversion from PAL to NTSC is handled differently today and can look like no conversion took place. BBC World News comes over just fine and can look great, better quality at you local PBS station than Dish with BBCA. The internationals being sent to Dish being sent over quite well, and looked good at 148, but not at 118. Boy did I see the big difference after they installed my free upgrade for internationals: NOW the channels are crap because of Dish. I don't think the crap in crap out whatever gallon whatever is a fair analogy.

I think the OP has a problem with his TV.

 

[andyg]

Keep in mind my friends that many of the internationals were not crap PQ at 148. Some of the Indian channels did have among the worst film prints of movies, but no really bad PQ itself. Italian, Japanese, French, are just some of the channels that were not "crap" in terms of PQ. They looked really good. And this is not the 1970's, the conversion from PAL to NTSC is handled differently today and can look like no conversion took place. BBC World News comes over just fine and can look great, better quality at you local PBS station than Dish with BBCA. The internationals being sent to Dish being sent over quite well, and looked good at 148, but not at 118. Boy did I see the big difference after they installed my free upgrade for internationals: NOW the channels are crap because of Dish. I don't think the crap in crap out whatever gallon whatever is a fair analogy.

I think the OP has a problem with his TV.

what do you think about this. On 1-2 russian channels I have wiered vertical lines visible (something that looks like fish bones, exzcept they are straight)...I checked with other TV, etc and other receiver..same thing. So, I also cheched a different channel on the SAME transponder...and it was FINE. So what do yuo think might be the problem?

 

[Mr Tony]

NOW the channels are crap because of Dish. I don't think the crap in crap out whatever gallon whatever is a fair analogy.

how is it not fair? on a DBS transponder (like 148) the rule of thumb was up to 12 channels per TP. On KU Band its usually 8 or 9. So if they cram the same 12 channels on a TP that has a capacity of 8-9 channels to still "look good" and now it looks like crap how is that not a fair comparison? Also the FEC on DBS was usually either 5/6 or 7/8. On 118.7 its 3/4 so they cant put that many channels on it

148 was known to not have a lot of channels per transponder on it. For fun I checked some info back a year or so ago when 148 was still up. Here is the number of channels per TP (Int'l only...there were locals on some TP's...info taken from Lyngsat 5/30/08)

1-12
3-5
4-5 (1 INt'l...4 locals)
7-8
9-12
11-10
15-2 (one was the "148" screen)
19-5 (6 including the EPG)
24-9 (2 PI channels included in that 9)
25-8
26-6 (1 int'l..the rest were business channels)
27-7
29-11

now here is how many channels on 118.7 per TP (per thelist)
1-9
2-11
3-10
6-8
7-9
17-13
19-11
20-9
22-10
23-9
24-12
25-10
26-10
27-10
28-9
29-9
30-10

as you can see, on 118.7 they are putting an average of 10 chanenls per TP. Some of these have 2-3 audio channels too that I didnt include. They have one TP that isnt "full capacity" of 9 and most are over that

That is why the picture looks like mush.

 

[highdefjeff]

sounds good..I mean frustrating..but nothing can do about it. So, you don't think that blurring is my LNBF or singnal strength/quality of the dish.

There isn't a problem with the OP's tv because he sees this on all tvs and PC.

The green color may be indicative of a receiver problem because it is not a typical response for low signal quality (and since it is seen on all tvs).

The blurriness however, could easily be due to the 50 signal strength that is reported. Get it to 66 or higher and the blurriness will likely go away.

When signal quality is too low, the bitrate suffers. It is called slow data. Two causes are poor cable terminations and low signal strength. That is why Dish increased the buffer size (length of time between channels when changing) when they changed the signal meter. They understand that many of their customers have poorly installed systems and to compensate have increased the buffer size.

When there is not enough data/time available to render the proper picture, the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension used in all MPEG 2 and 4 devices allows for the picture to be scaled down. This is called fidelity or quality scaling. The receiver will do the best it can with what there is to work with and the result is a lower quality picture of the same size. This is where blurring comes from.

Either a small increase in signal strength or a reduction in the noise influences are needed. Reduce noise by checking cable quality, terminations, and grounding. Increase signal strength by peaking the dish.

There is enough (barely) signal available with the current dish sizes, but there is little room for error when peaking the dish.

 

[andyg]

how is it not fair? on a DBS transponder (like 148) the rule of thumb was up to 12 channels per TP. On KU Band its usually 8 or 9. So if they cram the same 12 channels on a TP that has a capacity of 8-9 channels to still "look good" and now it looks like crap how is that not a fair comparison? Also the FEC on DBS was usually either 5/6 or 7/8. On 118.7 its 3/4 so they cant put that many channels on it

148 was known to not have a lot of channels per transponder on it. For fun I checked some info back a year or so ago when 148 was still up. Here is the number of channels per TP (Int'l only...there were locals on some TP's...info taken from Lyngsat 5/30/08)

1-12
3-5
4-5 (1 INt'l...4 locals)
7-8
9-12
11-10
15-2 (one was the "148" screen)
19-5 (6 including the EPG)
24-9 (2 PI channels included in that 9)
25-8
26-6 (1 int'l..the rest were business channels)
27-7
29-11

now here is how many channels on 118.7 per TP (per thelist)
1-9
2-11
3-10
6-8
7-9
17-13
19-11
20-9
22-10
23-9
24-12
25-10
26-10
27-10
28-9
29-9
30-10

as you can see, on 118.7 they are putting an average of 10 chanenls per TP. Some of these have 2-3 audio channels too that I didnt include. They have one TP that isnt "full capacity" of 9 and most are over that

That is why the picture looks like mush.

I wonder how long Dish can get away with doing this? Maybe until enough people complain? Is it fair that they ask us to pay the same price for those international packages when the quality was good on 148, but now it is much worse on 118, but same price?

 

[Mr Tony]

The blurriness however, could easily be due to the 50 signal strength that is reported. Get it to 66 or higher and the blurriness will likely go away.

When signal quality is too low, the bitrate suffers. It is called slow data. Two causes are poor cable terminations and low signal strength. That is why Dish increased the buffer size (length of time between channels when changing) when they changed the signal meter. They understand that many of their customers have poorly installed systems and to compensate have increased the buffer size.

When there is not enough data/time available to render the proper picture, the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension used in all MPEG 2 and 4 devices allows for the picture to be scaled down. This is called fidelity or quality scaling. The receiver will do the best it can with what there is to work with and the result is a lower quality picture of the same size. This is where blurring comes from.

Either a small increase in signal strength or a reduction in the noise influences are needed. Reduce noise by checking cable quality, terminations, and grounding. Increase signal strength by peaking the dish.

There is enough (barely) signal available with the current dish sizes, but there is little room for error when peaking the dish.

BUZZ! WRONG ANSWER!

Still spewing the same thing huh Jeff? 118.7 has a 3/4 FEC rate so anything above 30-35 is fine. Blurriness due to signal? Nope

Its due to two things
-too many channels on one TP with not enough FEC.
-Bad source signal

Has nothing to do with "oh his signal is too low"....and that 118.7 is KU Band so the signal WILL be lower. I work with KU Band all the time and if I have a 30 signal or a 75 signal quality its the same picture. Blurriness is due to garbage in garbage out and transponder overload.

 

[Mr Tony]

I wonder how long Dish can get away with doing this? Maybe until enough people complain? Is it fair that they ask us to pay the same price for those international packages when the quality was good on 148, but now it is much worse on 118, but same price?

Hopefully once they move the HD locals off 118.7 they can use that satellite for only Internationals then spread it out.

If Dish was smart, they'd start removing the HD locals on there. These HD locals are on 118.7 and another sat
Detroit
Charlotte, NC
Pittsburgh
St Louis

Remove those and you free up 11 transponders (they can only get 2 channels per TP and most of those markets have 4 locals...some 5 that are spread along 2-3 transponders)

 

[DishSubLA]

what do you think about this. On 1-2 russian channels I have wiered vertical lines visible (something that looks like fish bones, exzcept they are straight)...I checked with other TV, etc and other receiver..same thing. So, I also cheched a different channel on the SAME transponder...and it was FINE. So what do yuo think might be the problem?

That, again, is most likely the quality of the content: how it was recorded, etc. not the PQ being sent to Dish. In other words some Internationals will air the most horrid film prints using really bad telecine, but when they switch to video for ads or promos, BOOM it can look great. Then back to the crappy film print using poor telecine to air the movie. This is quite common on many of the Internationals.

I can tell you that on free preview, the Russian channels looked good, when it was decent video or sports looked really good, but film: lousy print with really poor telecine. Again, it is most likely how the international itself is receiving the feed they send out, not the actual potential quality of the feed to Dish. Perhaps the garbage in does make some sense, but it is garbage CONTENT in garbage out.
It is more the content than the feed to Dish.

TV5 has standards that would never allow it to air poorly telecined film. Everything looks great on TV5--or it used to at 148. Now at 118, it is blurrsville.

 

[Mr Tony]

TV5 is on TP3 with 9 other channels per thelist

checking old info when it was on 148 it was on a TP with 5 other channels (so 6 total)

thats part of the issue

 

[DishSubLA]

BTW Icebeg is right about the Ku FSS capaicity issue. He is trying to tell us that is the reason the internationals look so bad. Dish does have to cram them in there. I do think that Dish does feel that the international subs won't notice or care as much about the PQ, and that is how they can "get away" with blurriness at 118. I can tell you that in L.A. many of the same internationals on Dish are available on countless digital sub-channels here and the PQ is quite superior to what we get at 118. In fact, the L.A. OTA sub-channel internationals are sharp by comparison to 118.

Once again, thanks to Iceberg for taking the time to explain this to those on this thread. I think we have all agreed that it is a Dish compression matter, along with a few other things, but one we have to live with, at least for now.

 

[Mr Tony]

BTW Icebeg is right about the Ku FSS capaicity issue. He is trying to tell us that is the reason the internationals look so bad. Dish does have to cram them in there.

if DIsh removes those HD locals they can free up eleven TP's and scatter the INt'l chanels across those too which should help.

I do think that Dish does feel that the international subs won't notice or care as much about the PQ, and that is how they can "get away" with blurriness at 118.

I know on 97W (free to air) there are tons of international channels and some look real bad. Like a youtube movie blown up to full screen (honestly some might be). But I know I installed a dish for someone who wanted "her homeland" channels. And a couple of them look horrible but she was happy to hear (and I guess "See") stuff from her homeland

Once again, thanks to Iceberg for taking the time to explain this to those on this thread. I think we have all agreed that it is a Dish compression matter, along with a few other things, but one we have to live with, at least for now.

no problem. Glad to help out

 

[whatchel1]

Just shut up

There isn't a problem with the OP's tv because he sees this on all tvs and PC.

The green color may be indicative of a receiver problem because it is not a typical response for low signal quality (and since it is seen on all tvs).

The blurriness however, could easily be due to the 50 signal strength that is reported. Get it to 66 or higher and the blurriness will likely go away.

When signal quality is too low, the bitrate suffers. It is called slow data. Two causes are poor cable terminations and low signal strength. That is why Dish increased the buffer size (length of time between channels when changing) when they changed the signal meter. They understand that many of their customers have poorly installed systems and to compensate have increased the buffer size.

When there is not enough data/time available to render the proper picture, the Scalable Video Coding (SVC) extension used in all MPEG 2 and 4 devices allows for the picture to be scaled down. This is called fidelity or quality scaling. The receiver will do the best it can with what there is to work with and the result is a lower quality picture of the same size. This is where blurring comes from.

Either a small increase in signal strength or a reduction in the noise influences are needed. Reduce noise by checking cable quality, terminations, and grounding. Increase signal strength by peaking the dish. If anyone thinks this is rude sorry but I'm just so tired of the one note flute.

There is enough (barely) signal available with the current dish sizes, but there is little room for error when peaking the dish.

We are so tried of this line highdefjeff. The answer to every question is not too little signal strength. It is your only answer so stop using it for everything.

 

[andyg]

if DIsh removes those HD locals they can free up eleven TP's and scatter the INt'l chanels across those too which should help.


I know on 97W (free to air) there are tons of international channels and some look real bad. Like a youtube movie blown up to full screen (honestly some might be). But I know I installed a dish for someone who wanted "her homeland" channels. And a couple of them look horrible but she was happy to hear (and I guess "See") stuff from her homeland



no problem. Glad to help out

yes, thanks man for explaining it so thoroughly

 

[andyg]

That, again, is most likely the quality of the content: how it was recorded, etc. not the PQ being sent to Dish. In other words some Internationals will air the most horrid film prints using really bad telecine, but when they switch to video for ads or promos, BOOM it can look great. Then back to the crappy film print using poor telecine to air the movie. This is quite common on many of the Internationals.

I can tell you that on free preview, the Russian channels looked good, when it was decent video or sports looked really good, but film: lousy print with really poor telecine. Again, it is most likely how the international itself is receiving the feed they send out, not the actual potential quality of the feed to Dish. Perhaps the garbage in does make some sense, but it is garbage CONTENT in garbage out.
It is more the content than the feed to Dish.

TV5 has standards that would never allow it to air poorly telecined film. Everything looks great on TV5--or it used to at 148. Now at 118, it is blurrsville.

the prolem I am seeing has spread to 2 russian channels now, TVCI and RTVI (probably broadcast by the same guys). Unfortunately, it is not dependent on type of content: movies or talk shows...those tiny vertical lines of the color of the feed are visible no matter what..just sometimes more than other times.
One guy on here mentioned that if I get analog like distortions on the digital feed, then it must be broadcast/feed issue assuming that all receivers work the same and it does not happen on all the channels.
So, I assume wha Iceberg was saying all true plus there is some feed issue on the way it is being passed to dish I guess. I have read in some forums that TVCI channel had technical problems before sometime in January when they moved it to 118 (not the problems I am having now, but some other technical issues where the picture was freezing up constantly, etc.).
So, I guess I will try to contact channel admin and dish and see if they are aware of any complaints. The problem with contactin dish will be the usual BS like reset your receiver, etc..which I have done it all already including testing the switch by plugging cables into different ports, trying different receivers and TVs, etc. The only other thing I did not try is try a new 118 LNB or maybe there is a grounding problem (I know they did not ground my dish right). Maybe LNB is bad. However, I have heard somebody say that if the picture is not braking up..no sonstant pixelation, then it is not LNB problem. About the grounding I do not know if this can cause problems I am experiencing.