Ciel 2 Tracking

[Jim5506]

Does Echostar have any say in the testing of this satellite, it is not owned by them, only leasing transponders.

It's not Charlie's bird! He may be elbowing Ciel to get 'er done, but in the end it's a Canadian satellite, not an Echostar satellite.

 

[Fitzie]

Does Echostar have any say in the testing of this satellite, it is not owned by them, only leasing transponders.

It's not Charlie's bird! He may be elbowing Ciel to get 'er done, but in the end it's a Canadian satellite, not an Echostar satellite.

Sure Echostar will have a big voice. I noticed on the launch show that the announcer commented (or perhaps one of the guests) that Echo had worked closely with the designers of the satellite as it would be, in effect, the "homeboy." Echo was also on the ground right up to the launch. Why wouldn't they be sitting next to the test guys in Saskatoon, coordinating every bit of the testing? That's certainly what I would expect, and hopefully what Dish (and Echostar) are doing.

I believe another comment was that Echostar has contracted for the capacity of the satellite for its full useful life. That being so, why didn't Echostar simply build and put up the satellite itself? Two reasons, at least: first, 129W is a Canadian assigned location; second, it's probably more cost effective for Dish (Echo*) to do it this way, since there are some obvious advantages for tax purposes in renting rather than owning, especially when the owner is Canadian.

Regards,
Fitzie

 

[digiblur]

I am sure Ciel wants to get into place quicker than Charlie does so they can start billing for the lease.

 

[Fitzie]

Makes you wonder what the terms of the lease actually are; it may be that Dish has begun paying lease payments from the time testing actually started. If Dish doesn't start paying until there is carriage to subscribers, there might be reason to delay until after some undetermined point in time, such as Jan. 1 or Feb. 1, 2009.

If anyone knows the answer to that (and can legitimately post it) it would be a tasty tidbit for discussion. For purposes of speculation, one might assume $60 million annual in leasing fees, or $5M per month. I don't really think Dish would delay initiation of services for a month to save $5M, even if it could.

At the time of the E-11 launch and now for the launch of Ciel-2, Dish has received high marks from the commentators as a valued partner. Part of what that means is that Dish pays its bills on time and doesn't try to short-sheet its partners. Hanging back on activation to avoid a monthly lease fee would be, in my estimation, short-sheeting the partners.

In doing a little research to try to determine the terms of the lease, I looked at Ciel-2's ownership. The blurb says that the Borealis Group of Canada is "majority" Canadian owner, O'Neill of Canada is "minority" Canadian owner, and that SES Americom is "part" owner. So how much does SES Americom own? Apparently, 70%. Now that was a surprise. Majority owner, and a substantial majority at that. [If everyone else knew this, please excuse my naivete.] And SES Americom itself is a subsidiary of SES as part of the SES Group. Wow. At least they're rolling in "dough."

Regards.
Fitzie

 

[Fitzie]

I just looked at Ciel-2 at ny2o to see where it is: answer: 134.97W, chugging along in an easterly direction at 0.02km per second. Height: 22,100 miles.

Can Dish/Ciel Partners test while moving? Is Dish rushing Ciel-2 over to 129W to get in position before E5 runs out of fuel? Does Dish have authority to test at 129W if they want to?

 

[HDRoberts]

I just looked at Ciel-2 at ny2o to see where it is: answer: 134.97W, chugging along in an easterly direction at 0.02km per second. Height: 22,100 miles.

Can Dish/Ciel Partners test while moving? Is Dish rushing Ciel-2 over to 129W to get in position before E5 runs out of fuel? Does Dish have authority to test at 129W if they want to?

Still on the old TLE. Wit until the second to last digit in line 2 is higher than 7.

 

[Smith P.]

Regardless TLE status, there are no Ku signals between 129W and 148W..

 

[Fitzie]

Regardless TLE status, there are no Ku signals between 129W and 148W..

PSmith, thanks for letting us know. Now we can just continue wondering, "what's up?"

Fitzie

 

[mike123abc]

It is possible they are testing, just doing spot beams. Or, they could just be waiting for Monday...

 

[kstuart]

Makes you wonder what the terms of the lease actually are; it may be that Dish has begun paying lease payments from the time testing actually started. If Dish doesn't start paying until there is carriage to subscribers, there might be reason to delay until after some undetermined point in time, such as Jan. 1 or Feb. 1, 2009.

I think you are going off the deep end here.

The lease for an object costing hundreds of millions of dollars is certainly pro-rated.

And, the lease certainly does not begin until the satellite arrives at 129. There is no 100% guarantee that it will arrive there, even though it seem 99% likely.

You don't start paying your rental car lease while the car is still on a container ship from Japan.

Ciel-2 will arrive at 129 and then they will say to Dish "here is the key and your first bill".

The testing at 138 is necessary for Ciel's insurance - if something does not work at 138, then the insurance company will pay off on the policy.

Also, I seem to remember that even though it is reported that, due to the failure of Canadian broadcasters expressing interest in using any space on Ciel-2, Dish can now use all 32 transponders, nevertheless the Canadian government can ask for one transponder's use in the future, so that clarifies that Dish Network is not leasing a satellite they can move (cf AMC-14), but rather are leasing transponders at 129.

PS With all due respect to Smith's technical skills, I doubt that anyone can be sure that there is no signal, especially since the testers may be on an entirely different daily schedule than Smith.

 

[Smith P.]

I just looked at Ciel-2 at ny2o to see where it is: answer: 134.97W, chugging along in an easterly direction at 0.02km per second. Height: 22,100 miles.

Can Dish/Ciel Partners test while moving? Is Dish rushing Ciel-2 over to 129W to get in position before E5 runs out of fuel? Does Dish have authority to test at 129W if they want to?

I would doubt - solar panels are fragile and couldn't survive in case of high trust.

 

[kstuart]

Does Dish have authority to test at 129W if they want to?

Both Ciel and Dish have authority to broadcast from 129. "Testing" is just broadcasting termporarily to see if the various parts of the satellite work.

So, the FCC gives authority to temporarily broadcast from locations where there is otherwise not a permanent license (such as 138) for the purpose of testing.

 

[nelson61]

Both Ciel and Dish have authority to broadcast from 129. "Testing" is just broadcasting termporarily to see if the various parts of the satellite work.

So, the FCC gives authority to temporarily broadcast from locations where there is otherwise not a permanent license (such as 138) for the purpose of testing.

Much of testing involves command and control and uplink tests which we would never see. Applications are specific that downlink transmissions will not occur while in transit.

 

[Fitzie]

Thanks to kstuart for an entertaining post, and which calls for a response.

"..going off the deep end..." No, just speculating.

"..the lease...is ... prorated." Without knowing the facts, I simply assumed a satellite cost of $600M, and with an annual lease fee of 10% of the capital cost of $600M. Either of those figures could be different, but I think they're in the ballpark. (I don't know what is meant by "prorated" in this circumstance.)

"the lease..." [would not begin until the sat. reaches 129] : yes, I think so too.

...when the sat. reaches 129, it willl be turned over to Dish, with the bill....Yes again.

"...testing at 138 is necessary for the insurance..." Very likely, unless an alternate test site is agreed upon between the parties.

"...Dish Network is not leasing a satellite they can move..." I agree totally with that, although I have not separately (independently) read of Canada's right to reserve use of one transponder. As the granting authority, Canada may actually have a right to several, if a need is shown. I think if Dish ultimately wanted to move Ciel-2 to 77W (and have 129W occupied by a newer Ciel-2 Partners satellite) that could be made to happen by agreement between Dish, Ciel-2 Partners, and the holders of the 77W slot. If that happened within the next 2 or 3 years, E-8 then could presumably be moved on over to 72.7 or 61.5.

"...I doubt that anyone can be sure that there is no signal..." True. But the simplest explanation for PSmith's failure to find a signal is that...there is no signal. The testing that has been on-going to this point in time could be totally control oriented, assuring all communicative functions, with redundancy, are alive and well, that the sat. is responsive to all commands, etc. The actual testing of spot beams may be days away.

Best regards, and happy holidays.

Fitzie

 

[navychop]

I thought there's been comments on other DBS satellites projecting costs in the $200M range. Are they really keeping costs out of the public arena?

 

[Fitzie]

Thanks PSmith for the comment re: fragility of solar panels. But using battery power?

Thanks kstuart for the comment re: testing sites. If I understand your response, some testing could be done at 129 so long as broadcasting from the site is not interrupted. (I'm extrapolating from what is said and what is unsaid.)

Much of testing involves command and control and uplink tests which we would never see. Applications are specific that downlink transmissions will not occur while in transit.

Good comment, I think that is what's going on. I did not realize that downlink transmissions while in transit could not occur, and that's another good fact to know.

navy chop also said: "I thought there's been comments on other DBS satellites projecting costs in the $200M range. Are they really keeping costs out of the public arena?"

My understanding of the AMC 14 satellite is that it cost about $450 million. Based on comments that Ciel-2 is "the biggest space bus ever built" I increased the projected cost to $600M. I didn't search for the actual cost, maybe it is in the public arena, I was simply looking for the lease fee (which I didn't find). I think all this information probably is actually in the public domain, and Dish or Echostar will ultimately have to report the cost in some of their SEC filings as a publicly traded company. I don't know what the reporting requirements are for Ciel-2, SES Americom, or SES.

Best regards,
Fitzie

 

[nelson61]

I've misplaced my link to the Cofetel permit for Quetzsat, but they published the lease rate for 77 there. It was somewhere between 180,000 and 250,000 per transponder per month if I remember correctly. So, 32 x 180,000 x 12 = 69,120,000 per satellite per year.

 

[rad]

I've misplaced my link to the Cofetel permit for Quetzsat, but they published the lease rate for 77 there. It was somewhere between 180,000 and 250,000 per transponder per month if I remember correctly. So, 32 x 180,000 = 5,760,00 per satellite per year.

Is it 32 transponders or something higher since a bunch of spot beams, which are seperate transponders, will be used?

 

[Smith P.]

It's still debating if Dish will use spot-beams.

 

[Fitzie]

I've misplaced my link to the Cofetel permit for Quetzsat, but they published the lease rate for 77 there. It was somewhere between 180,000 and 250,000 per transponder per month if I remember correctly. So, 32 x 180,000 x 12 = 69,120,000 per satellite per year.

Thanks, that would be consistent with my previous estimate although it looks as though I was underestimating a bit.

32 transponders using 145 spot beams would be like 4 and a half spot beams per transponder. What is the upper limit in number of spot beams for a transponder? 5 or 6?

Doing some elementary math of my own, I figured out that if Ciel-2 continues at its current pace it will reach 129 on Christmas day, some 91 hours from now. It would be irritating if Ciel-2 takes the same amount of time to go active as E11 did, because that would be on...you guessed it, Feb. 1.

Regards,
Fitzie