Choosing an OTA Antenna

[gbg108]

Hi guys, I've been reading through a lot of posts here and I think I'm on information overload. I need help choosing the right antenna for my setup and I've having trouble figuring it all out.

First off, I don't know much about OTA antennas as I've always had cable until recently. I just switched to Dish (Vip622) and now I need to get my locals in HD. The only channels I am interested in are FOX/CBS/NBC. From antennaweb.org, for my zip code (17601) I got that:

FOX is at 270° (Yellow) 15.2 miles away
NBC is at 272° (Yellow) 16.1 miles away
CBS is at 314° (Blue) 34.7 miles away

I am not opposed to installing 2 antennas if needed to get the best signal on these 3 as possible. Also, I would *really* like to keep the antenna(s) in the attic if possible, however if I can't I would like them to be as small as possible.

On a side note, can I split the cable coming from the antenna and run it to the back of my receiver as an AM/FM antenna? This is less important but would be a nice benefit if it were to work.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[navychop]

I'll leave the first part to people more knowledgeable than I.

But for the FM reception- yes, an antenna that receives VHf will receive the FM band, which is located between TV channels 6 & 7. I use a splitter to feed my FM & HDTV from my CM3010. AM is different- your receiver coax connection is for FM.

 

[bhelms]

First, Welcome! You should also check-in in the Chit Chat forum and introduce yourself!

Others will weigh-in on this. You have quite a few stations to chose from in your location; at least 5 digital channels are shown in less than 40 miles. I'm not sure why you only mentioned those 3 channels in your post. WHP (TV21, CBS) has its digital signal on channel 4 according to their website - can someone else confirm that? WPMT (43 Fox) is digital on actual ch 47 and WGAL (8 NBC) is digital on ch 58. (Note that your 622 will not receive the older analog signals so you need to focus on only the digitals.) Thus you have a wide range of frequencies to cover! That will require a VHF/UHF antenna with a minimum range of about 50 miles to get WHP reliably (I'm assuming their digital VHF antenna is co-located with their analog UHF antenna at 35 miles away, but that is not necessarily the case.) or separate VHF and UHF antennas. I suggest you look at the Winegard, Channel Master, and Antennas Direct websites and do some shopping. For the close channels you might get away with an indoor (attic) UHF antenna, but that is not really your best choice from the best reception reliability standpoint. A CM4228 (UHF) in the attic facing about 270° would probably work well for FOX and NBC (might actually be more than you need) but it won't help you with CBS if that one is indeed on ch 4, and at that 35-mile range probably nothing mounted in the attic will work well at all. You really should consider an all-band medium-range antenna with a rotator mounted outside (and you would also get other channels by swinging it around), or you could have two antennas, a short- to medium-range UHF pointed to 270° and a medium- to long- range VHF pointed to 314°. These can be combined reasonably well onto a single downlead with just a "combiner". You probably won't need a preamp.

Regarding AM/FM, none of these antennas will do much for AM. Instead use just use the loop antenna that came with your receiver for AM, or else string a "longwire" from the AM jack. (It will be very directional and subject to a lot of interference, so you'll have to play with the postion and routing.) For FM, you can split-off from your down lead as navychop mentioned or else use a separate indoor dipole, which is probably all you need for your location. The FM signal is just above ch 6 on the spectrum, so your VHF antenna will be the one receiving those signals, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the UHF only antennas give you some reception of strong local FM signals as well!

Good luck with this - Let's see what specific recommendations others will have for you and do report back...!

 

[gbg108]

Thanks for the input guys!

I only mentioned those three because those are the only three I really need. Other channels are bonus. I don't really care if I get PBS or UPN in HD, but I HAVE to get the Eagles games . Anyway...

If I mount the antenna on the roof will I be able to use the same cable as my dish satellite? Currently I have 2 Dish 500s up there. I saw some antennas that look like they can be mounted directly on the dish...I'm not sure how that works. Is there an antenna input up there already? Will they pick up a strong enough signal? Basically, if I'm going to put an antenna on the roof I want it to look as nice as possible and I don't want it to be extremely obvious.

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[bhelms]

combine OTA with sat.

The dish LNBs do not have an OTA signal input, but you can send OTA and sat. signals on a single coax if you have to by using two diplexers, one to combine the signals at the top, and the other to split them again at the switch or receivers. It's all around better to run a separate coax if you can. If you do use diplexers, get some good ones. I wouldn't buy them at RS or any cheap outlet.

Get the best antenna for your reception needs. Appearance should be a secondary concern. You could use a small OTA antenna (indeed some can even mount on the same post as a dish as you noted) for the close stations, but such an antenna would not likely work for the more distant station(s).

BRgds...

 

[gbg108]

"Appearance should be a secondary concern"

Well we disagree here. But thats OK.

You say "it's all around better" to run a new line of coax...why is that? Are there signla loss issues associated with using the diplexers? If this is the case, what kind of signal loss would I have if I got good diplxers? Or is there another issue I'm not thinking of?

Thanks for all your info bhelms, you've been a big help. I'll probably start the shopping later today.

 

[bhelms]

I forgot, maybe you have neighbors to complain. Where I live that's a non-issue. If it's the S.O., tell her/him that it's the TV (s)he should be watching, not the antenna...!

Anyway - yes, there is some signal loss in the diplexers, at least 1dB each, (3dB = 1/2 power loss) plus you have added connections, just more stuff to corrode or go wrong. And if you do decide you need a preamp for the OTA system, having the signals combined severely limits your options. (There is at least 1 preamp on the market that will share the LNB power source, but that one may not be best for your antenna(s) or stations.) Good quality RG-6 cable is fairly cheap and may even be less expensive than the diplexers and extra connectors.

Here are a couple of diplexers but I'm not sure what their loss is. Make some calls or google the topic.

http://www.dishstore.net/index.php?cPath=57

Good luck with it and report back with your results!

 

[gbg108]

Well, some things came up and I had to put the OTA antenna on hold for a few months, but now I would like to finish it.

bhelms, I'm going to take your advice and at least put the UHF antenna outside. I bought a Lacrosse antenna, and while I haven't tried it on my roof yet, I was able to get pretty good reception with it sitting beside me on my couch

So my question now is how to best get VHF channels. The channels I need are CBS on channel 4 (313 degrees) and ABC channel 10 (308 degrees). I'm in zip code 17601.

My current plan is to put the VHF antenna in my attic, however I don't know which antenna would be best for getting these two channels inside. Also, I am planning to combine the VHF and UHF antenna with a Channel Master 0549, since I think the UHF stations are too close to use a channel Master 7777. Should I plan on amplifying just the VHF lead? What should I use to do this?

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[mserrano]

I think you are going to need an outdoor VHF antenna for reliable reception of WHP-DT 4 (CBS). Antennas in the attic don't work well for VHF-lo (channels 2-6). You could try it in the attic first (antenna needs to be 7-ft away from any metal or foil, like HVAC ducts). Warren Electronics has a VHF-only antenna for $22 (close-price: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/cl_ant.htm)

If you are concerned about pre-amp overload, try the Winegard HDP-269 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hdp269.htm).

 

[Tower Guy]

Well, some things came up and I had to put the OTA antenna on hold for a few months, but now I would like to finish it.

bhelms, I'm going to take your advice and at least put the UHF antenna outside. I bought a Lacrosse antenna, and while I haven't tried it on my roof yet, I was able to get pretty good reception with it sitting beside me on my couch

So my question now is how to best get VHF channels. The channels I need are CBS on channel 4 (313 degrees) and ABC channel 10 (308 degrees). I'm in zip code 17601.

My current plan is to put the VHF antenna in my attic, however I don't know which antenna would be best for getting these two channels inside. Also, I am planning to combine the VHF and UHF antenna with a Channel Master 0549, since I think the UHF stations are too close to use a channel Master 7777. Should I plan on amplifying just the VHF lead? What should I use to do this?

Thanks for the help guys.

You will need a large attic to hold an antenna that will get channel 4. One such VHF only antenna is the Antennacraft CS9000. It's not as robust as some others, but it's perfect for an attic and the price is right. The Channel Master 0549 is the proper coupler. A suitable preamp is the Winegard HDP-269. It shouldn't overload with your stronger UHF stations.

 

[gbg108]

Thanks for the info guys.

First, my attic is huge and empty, so putting an antenna in there should not be a problem. Also my house was built in the 40s so there are no ducts to worry about. I think I'm going to get the CS900, HDP-269, and CM0549. Hopefully that will be everything I need.

Also, is it better to join the two antennas right away or can I do it by the receiver?

Thanks to everyone who offered feedback on this.

 

[gbg108]

Why not just install a winegard hd8200P and the hdp269 preamp and not 2 antennas. That is what I have here and am very happy. The hd822p is only a few feet longer than the vhf you are interested in plus the cm 4228 with a vhf is going to present alot of wind load.

Tried the cm4228 combined with the hd8200p for vhf and the cm4228 did not turn me on....thought the cm 4228 would improve uhf...but did not...did not handle multipath well, etc.

The reason I'm planning on doing separate antennas is because I didn't want to put a huge antenna on my roof. The Lacrosse antenna I have seems like it will do a fine job for the UHF stations and it looks more like a satellite dish than an antenna. So my plan was to put the Lacrosse on the roof and put the giant VHF antenna in my attic.

I prefer separate fm antennas if you are serious about fm reception....have a 10 footer (wade qfm-9) mounted below the hd8200p (see picture).

Why separate? This allows you to filter out the fm on the tv antenna, amplify tv to your hearts content and not run the risk of fm interference. The fm on most vhf antennas is only adequate and if you are seriously interested interested in fm reception separate is best.

The winegard hd6065P fm antenna would be my choce. I currently own the wade and it is on its last leg after only 8 years and would not suggest it.

So are you saying the problems with signal over amplification are due to FM interference? And if I filter it out, a CM 7777 would work well in my situation? What type of filter do you use?

if this is the case and filtering the FM on the TV line helps, then another antenna for FM would be fine, as long as it will work inside my attic. I imagine it will for closer stations, an that would be OK. I will have to around at some FM antennas today. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[jenec2000]

I thought all HD channels were UHF.
I receive El Paso CBS, ABC, NBC, and FOX HD.
They say channel 4, 7, 9, 14 but there actually UHF freq 15,16, 17, and 18.
What I don't understand is why you need a big VHF antenna unless you want non HD.

 

[TommyTDFVC]

HO-LI-sh*t!!!

This is way overcomplicated. At that range and compass direction, a simple Winegard amplified antenna would supply great reception with minimal signal loss for the satellite. That antenna uses a standard diplexer at the receiver and a dual power-pass diplexer at the antenna. Aim the sucker towards the towers (which are near eachother) for best reception. Under $80 bucks for the antenna, no rotors to mess with, and call me if you have any questions. By the way, even a coathanger is a HD antenna; HD rides piggyback on a standard off-air signal, so don't buy a "HD" antenna!!! If you can get even a crappy analog signal, the HD tuner will give you the "all or nothing" digital signal. Good Luck!!! -Tom.

 

[Tower Guy]

Thanks for the info guys.

Also, is it better to join the two antennas right away or can I do it by the receiver?

You want the preamp as close to the antennas as possible. You also want the preamp to amplify the antennas after they are combined. This means that the combiner and preamp should be outdoors or in the attic.

 

[navychop]

"...I thought all HD channels were UHF...."
Would that it were so. The entire world (except the U.S.) has set up all digital TV to be in the UHF band, returning VHF for other purposes. Congress decided there was more money to be made selling parts of the UHF band, and so kept VHF as an option.

Some DTV stations broadcast in VHF today. After the transition, some DTV stations currently using UHF will move back to their VHF assignments.