Change in HD RSNs and College Sports?

[king3pj]

It looks like Dish is changing the way they handle the HD RSNs. Certain events, like college sports, are often carried on multiple RSNs throughout the country. This is necessary because for everyone besides D* or E* customers with the sports pack the RSNs truly are only regionally available. In the past Dish would just pick one of the RSNs carrying the event and put it on one of the HD ALT channels for everyone who should be getting that game. Even though my local RSN, FS Detroit, is carrying the same game I would have to watch FS Arizona on the ALT channel to see it in HD.

I noticed that this was different last night. Several RSNs were carrying the Boston College vs. Miami basketball game and all of them had it in HD. I checked them out and they had the correct branding so it wasn't just the same feed mirrored to all of them. FS Detroit HD had their logo in the top right, NESN HD had their logo in the top right, etc.... This was also true of other games that were on multiple RSNs. They were the same syndicated games with the same announcers but different branding and commercials.

I always wondered why Dish was allowed to do that in the past. FS Detroit or NESN and their local advertisers couldn't have been happy that Dish was making people watch the game they were carrying on FS Arizona or whoever Dish picked for HD that night. I'm wondering if someone told them to stop that practice because they don't appear to be doing it anymore. If you want to check it out for yourself, the women's basketball game between North Carolina State and Maryland is available in HD on 7 different RSNs tonight.

When I looked through the guide last night I saw that practically every HD RSN was live at the same time. Between college basketball, NBA, and NHL scrimmages there were very few HD RSNs that weren't lit up. This makes me think we might be a step closer to full time HD. If they can turn practically all of them on at once like that why not just leave them on 24 hours a day?

 

[jrbdmb]

I noticed that as well. I can only guess that Fox and the local RSNs didn't like viewers tuning to an HD feed without the local commercials.

I'm also looking forward to full-time HD RSNs, because I can't always watch or DVR the live events and watching reruns in SD just doesn't seem like an option anymore.

 

[zippyfrog]

When I looked through the guide last night I saw that practically every HD RSN was live at the same time. Between college basketball, NBA, and NHL scrimmages there were very few HD RSNs that weren't lit up. This makes me think we might be a step closer to full time HD. If they can turn practically all of them on at once like that why not just leave them on 24 hours a day?

If I remember right, there are 24 HD feeds set aside for RSN's. And, looking at a list of RSN's on Dish, it appears there are 26 on ConUS beams (CSN Cal, Altitude, Prime, PAC12, Root Rocky Mountina, FS Ariz, FS SW, FS West, FS MidWest, CSN Bay, FS South, Sunsports, FS Florida, CSN Mid Atl, FS Ohio, FS Cincy, Root Northwest, Root Pitt, CSN Chi, FS Det, STO, Masn, NESN, CSN NE, FS North, SportSouth). If it was just adding 2 or 3 more feeds, I am sure Dish would do that. What that doesn't take into account is when there are all the Alternate channels in place, such as all the PAC12, Big 10 alternates with games simultaneously, NFL Redzone, MLB Strikezone, or when RSN's, such as here in Chicago, we get CSN+ when 2 teams are playing at the same time - all those alternates are pulling from the same 24 HD feeds. I remember being told by someone that if there were to be enough HD feeds to keep the main RSN's on 24/7 and still keep all the alternates as "game time only", there are over 40 HD feeds necessary.

I personally would like to see Dish have the RSN's on HD more than game time. Basically up the amount of feeds to 26 so that the main RSN's are in HD full time, then, in the evenings when all the games are going on, maybe from 7pm eastern till midnight, you then go into "Live Game Only" RSN's where during that block of time your RSN is in HD only if there is a game on your channel and if there isn't, that HD feed could be used for another RSN that is running their alternate feed as well. If you had that setup, you can see the replays on your RSN's in HD during the day, catch the shows in HD during the day, etc. Even during the summer when there are afternoon baseball games, I don't think that they are short on space for showing games in HD.

 

[king3pj]

If it was just adding 2 or 3 more feeds, I am sure Dish would do that. What that doesn't take into account is when there are all the Alternate channels in place, such as all the PAC12, Big 10 alternates with games simultaneously, NFL Redzone, MLB Strikezone, or when RSN's, such as here in Chicago, we get CSN+ when 2 teams are playing at the same time - all those alternates are pulling from the same 24 HD feeds. I remember being told by someone that if there were to be enough HD feeds to keep the main RSN's on 24/7 and still keep all the alternates as "game time only", there are over 40 HD feeds necessary.

That makes sense. It doesn't seem like the real number would be anywhere near 40 though. That would assume that all of these alternate feeds have to be active at the same time. The BTN alternates are really only used on Saturdays during college football season and usually they only need 1 alternate even though Dish lists it as 10 channels. RedZone is only on Sundays during football season from 1:00 to about 7:00. StrikeZone is only Tuesdays and Fridays during baseball. I'm not a fan of any PAC 12 teams but I do think Dish messed up with them. They have to turn it on practically every night. It would have made more sense just to make it full time like BTN.

FS Detroit+ is only used when there are 2 simultaneous games between the Tigers, Redwings, and Pistons. It gets a lot of action during April but the rest of the year it doesn't happen much. I would assume most of the other RSNs with + channels are similar to this. Chicago might use theirs more than most since they have both the White Sox and the Cubs. I would be willing to take some of the games on FS Detroit+ in SD if it meant full time HD for the main channel.

 

[king3pj]

Also, Who says it has to be all or nothing? These HD RSNs didn't all get picked up at once. If they don't have room for all of the RSNs to go HD full time why not start with the biggest markets or most watched RSNs? If they really have 24 HD slots with 26 full time RSNs that need them (not including ALTs) it seems like it wouldn't be that hard. They could make the 15 most watched RSNs full time now without allocating any more HD to RSNs. Then they would still have 9 HD slots available for the other 11 RSNs plus ALTs.

Something like that would allow them to start phasing in full time HD to the most popular RSNs and still keep game time HD for the rest of them. Then they could gradually move the rest to full time HD if more bandwidth becomes available.

 

[zippyfrog]

I agree - I wish we had full time RSN's. I feel that the PAC12 main channel should be in HD full time just like Big 10 is, and was shocked when it wasn't treated the same way.

I can see it from Dish's perspective that the sports fans want to have their games in HD, and given the limited bandwidth they are juggling, they have to make choices. I have been thrilled that ever since Dish upped the number of feeds to 24, I have had every Bulls, Cubs, and Hawks game in HD, and there were only 2 White Sox games that were Joined in Progress (West Coast games in April). And this year's NBA League Pass has had more games in HD than I ever remember - almost every game, even those that are feeds that aren't normally on dish, have been in HD.

But yes, I would much rather have my CSNChicago in HD 24/7.

 

[Teehar]

I just wonder if it has anything to do with the added b/width capacity.Now that they have new sats at 61.5 and 77,they feel more comfortable opening up more room on the western arc as well.Just a hypothesis I have.They could have held some b/width in reserve on the western arc in case things didn't go so well with the new sats.

 

[Tampa8]

With the change at 61.5 the SD NESN feed is the HD feed, on both arcs.

 

[king3pj]

With the change at 61.5 the SD NESN feed is the HD feed, on both arcs.

I guess I don't understand what your saying. Do you mean that NESN is full time HD in the slot that is normally used for SD? If so that is great news for us sports fans.

 

[Tampa8]

No, the same as ESPN is doing, it's SD but the feed is the HD feed.

 

[king3pj]

No, the same as ESPN is doing, it's SD but the feed is the HD feed.

Oh ok that's not quite as exciting.

 

[The Fat Man]

More bull crap. I get wacked every time for this statement, but if that is what SD is reduced to, it's time to slowly fade it out. I wish I can say that I'm sorry for all the SD subscribers, but I'm not. It's getting old and tiring to hear that space is limited, SD channels are just down converted HD feeds, and that SD only subs feel the need to keep a dying format alive because they don't want to upgrade their receiver to one that gets HD and will do the same thing with HD channels to their TV with composite cables hooked in.

 

[dishfan82]

More bull crap. I get wacked every time for this statement, but if that is what SD is reduced to, it's time to slowly fade it out. I wish I can say that I'm sorry for all the SD subscribers, but I'm not. It's getting old and tiring to hear that space is limited, SD channels are just down converted HD feeds, and that SD only subs feel the need to keep a dying format alive because they don't want to upgrade their receiver to one that gets HD and will do the same thing with HD channels to their TV with composite cables hooked in.

I agree, when I complained to the rep about it they made this long explanation of how dish is limited on space and would be going to full time hd sports as soon as they work on getting more bandwidth. Hdtv's are quite affordable compared to when they first came out. When we got ours in 2008 that 120z motion rate was the new thing and we paid over 1000 but now you can get a good set for under that. Sd is terrible to watch especially with sports. My biggest gripe is after the tigers game is over instead of showing the post game show it will cut off the feed and then I have no choice but to watch the sd version.

 

[cosmo_kramer]

Can you even buy a non-HD capable set any more??

 

[The Fat Man]

Here's my take on the situation. I have a 1990s 20 inch Sony in my bedroom. It's SD. Yet, my Joey is hooked to it via composite cables. What that Joey does to the HD channels on that TV is the same thing Dish is using up bandwidth to do with down converting HD ESPN for the SD holdout customers. Again, it's time to tell them welcome to 21st century. The requirement for many is repointing the dish and a new receiver. Heck, even the VIP receivers will give them two tuners.

 

[goaliebob99]

That makes sense. It doesn't seem like the real number would be anywhere near 40 though. That would assume that all of these alternate feeds have to be active at the same time. The BTN alternates are really only used on Saturdays during college football season and usually they only need 1 alternate even though Dish lists it as 10 channels. RedZone is only on Sundays during football season from 1:00 to about 7:00. StrikeZone is only Tuesdays and Fridays during baseball. I'm not a fan of any PAC 12 teams but I do think Dish messed up with them. They have to turn it on practically every night. It would have made more sense just to make it full time like BTN.

FS Detroit+ is only used when there are 2 simultaneous games between the Tigers, Redwings, and Pistons. It gets a lot of action during April but the rest of the year it doesn't happen much. I would assume most of the other RSNs with + channels are similar to this. Chicago might use theirs more than most since they have both the White Sox and the Cubs. I would be willing to take some of the games on FS Detroit+ in SD if it meant full time HD for the main channel.

I am glad that a real discussion about this is finally happening. This has been the number one reason why I haven't remained a dish subscriber. I remember personally asking charlie about this on a charlie chat, and he said they would be coming and that was 3 years ago. What dish also fails to realize that launching HDRSNS full time opens them up to not only home consumers, but now you add sports bars and production accounts. The Production accounts are huge because that now gets you into the thousands of TV trucks that will use your feed as a confidence return and on air use. I know of several sports networks that uses directv feeds for replay's for on air syndication during its sports show's like sportscenter. I can also confirm that the only time that we use our alternates at BTN is on Saturdays for football. Outside of that I don't remember us using that in the past couple of years that I have worked at BTN. Any other feeds that we do use is usally for our BTN 2 go stuff over our BTN digital platform. There is some really good stuff up there so dont be afraid to check it out. Alot of people put their blood sweat and tears into the BTN 2 go product, and there is alot of pride there to bring those games to you and the familys of Big Ten Athletes. Also, "disclosure" I don't officially speak for BTN! Nor would I want to! LOL From seeing all of the sports feeds that come from Gal 17 Cband, I can tell you there are no SD masters and that when a provider takes in a feed from an RSN or network, that the programming is natively produced in HD from the trucks down to the distribution platform. The majority of feeds are fed out to Dish, Comcast, Directv at around 14-18 Mbps in MPEG2 depending on transponder load. FX and Speed looks stunning when coming directly from the bird.

 

[Tampa8]

Isn't the figure somewhere around 35% of homes do not have an HD set?

 

[The Fat Man]

All they need is an HD receiver. There is no excuse as of 2013 as to why you still have an SD receiver. When I signed up for Dish in 08 I originally ordered SD only. They gave me a VIP 722. I didn't have to pay any HD fee. I simply had the receiver with SD programming. Once everyone has a receiver and their dish aimed at the right bird. We could begin the transition. It would be seamless for them, they wouldn't even know.

 

[Tampa8]

But there's the rub I think. The reason you didn't pay an HD fee was because Dish only gave you SD programming. That the receiver was capable of HD made no difference. Take away SD transmissions and you get HD - and now pay $10 more a month, or require people to sign up for autopay and get paperless billing - Or pay a one time $100 fee all for an SD TV, again for about 35% of the subscribers. Dish has no way of knowing that you don't have an HD TV at some point, so will treat you as if you did. Could be a burden at this time with the economy being so bad especially if on top of that there are upgrade fees.

It's not that I disagree with you - Dish needs to start a program to end SD, probably by not giving SD equipment to any new subscribers, or replacing SD equipment with more SD equipment. And at some point end SD transmission and open up more bandwidth.

 

[king3pj]

But there's the rub I think. The reason you didn't pay an HD fee was because Dish only gave you SD programming. That the receiver was capable of HD made no difference. Take away SD transmissions and you get HD - and now pay $10 more a month, or require people to sign up for autopay and get paperless billing - Or pay a one time $100 fee all for an SD TV, again for about 35% of the subscribers. Dish has no way of knowing that you don't have an HD TV at some point, so will treat you as if you did. Could be a burden at this time with the economy being so bad especially if on top of that there are upgrade fees.

It's not that I disagree with you - Dish needs to start a program to end SD, probably by not giving SD equipment to any new subscribers, or replacing SD equipment with more SD equipment. And at some point end SD transmission and open up more bandwidth.

Or just switch policy to make HD standard. I mean Super HD is already starting to trickle out and the providers are still charging a special HD fee like its some new technology. Eventually HD has to just be the regular tv service and not the upgrade.