Best Way to Receive Whole Ku Arc With Fixed Dishes?

[linuxman]

Linuxman
Me personally would do 107, 103, 99

I know you mentioned 95 for Equity but since the Equity/RTN splitup there isnt much on there that isnt already somewhere else. They're down to 10 channels on that TP (from 16). What is on there is Daystar, 5 UNivision feeds and a Telefutura. That leaves 3 English channels left.
WMQF & WNGS are on G18
WBIF is now a "This TV" affiliate which (as you posted above) is already on a dish at AMC3 C-Band (and G18)

so I would use 99 for the nets and the feeds (some sports feeds show up there on occasion), 103 for ION and RFD TV and 107.3 for ASN, some French channels and whatever else is up there

105 C-Band is mainly 4DTV stuff

Thanks Iceberg!!

I am leaning heavily in that direction for the reasons you stated above, along with access to all the nets from somewhere besides OTA.

Our local stations have a bad habit of not showing network re-runs and sometimes new episodes of channels I like with local programming or some game etc. It is nice to be able to switch over elsewhere and actually watch the re-run I might have missed the first time around.

I hadn't realized that 93W was down to only three english channels. Hmmm. I swing over there for Daystar on Saturday nights to watch the Gaithers, but like you say, I can get Daystar and the other 3 channels elsewhere.

103W is pretty much a cinch because I can't get ION anywhere else, and RFD moving there pretty much sewed it up.

107.5W ASN is a nice channel, and I will probably settle on it for the final dish.

Thanks again!

 

[Mr Tony]

I am leaning heavily in that direction for the reasons you stated above, along with access to all the nets from somewhere besides OTA.

exactly. I have access to the nets but I still have a dish at 99W and 2 receivers running off of that. Our local ABC likes to pre-empt stuff so having ABC HD helps too

I hadn't realized that 93W was down to only three english channels. Hmmm. I swing over there for Daystar on Saturday nights to watch the Gaithers, but like you say, I can get Daystar and the other 3 channels elsewhere.

when Equity lost RTN that nuked most of those channels on 95W

103W is pretty much a cinch because I can't get ION anywhere else, and RFD moving there pretty much sewed it up.

There is Ion E, Central and West along with Worship and IonPLus (or is it called IonLife??) on there too. Scary that they are cramming 13 channels on one TP

 

[linuxman]

I managed to get out and try my C-Band experiment on the Prodelin today.

It is so nice to work with a dish that has the azimuth marking on it and the elevation scale. I knew where I was at 91W, so I added 42.5 degree to that, loosened up the bolts and moved the dish over to 121W. Put my digital level on the support arm just for a second source and started lowering the dish with the SL2 Ku LNBF still in place. Sure enough when I got it down to 35.1 elevation, the transponder I chose was at 99%.

Took most of the LNBFs off and put the CK-1 in the center. Put the laser level on it to make sure it was pointed properly. Guessed at the skew setting, and Voila!!!

I had C-Band booming in. All the Horizontal channels are booming at 75% SQ or above on my Pansat. Al-Jezeera is at about 30%. It is a vertical channel, and some of the other Verticalals are at about 60% SQ. I played with the skew etc, but that is the best I can get out of them. There is one Vertical transponder that won't display and it is a bouncing 15% SQ.

The only thing I can think of is that the dish is about 1.5" shy of being a full six foot wide. it is about 6.5 foot tall which accounts for better Horizontal reception.

I lined up 123W, and have pretty decent signals there with 11720 V at about 75% and the rest fall as usual with some in the 90's. As you can see from the picture below that I can't get the lnbf any closer, not because there isn't room, but because of the support bolt for the conduit.

Lined up 125W, and the signal there is outstanding. As you can also see the lnbfs are a lot closer together out away from the center of the arc.

Have 129W with 10% SQ, and will probably make a change there. It is watchable with 10%, but will go with the first rain drop. We don't watch it a lot, but would like a little better. It is 8 degrees out from the center of 121W, and signal drops very fast that far out of arc center.

So all in all, I am very pleased so far. I would like to get that last weak cband transponder, but can live without it.

If anyone has any suggestions for pulling in that last transponder, I am all ears. I am using the Geosat Pro CK-1 LNBF, and the Geosat Pro C-2 may be designed a little differently since it is cband only. If anyone has, or can take a detailed picture of the C-2 with dimensions of the probes etc, I would like to see them so I can compare with the CK-1.

Here are the pics:

 

[Anole]

Love those bright 'n sparkling pictures!
New camera?
Or just lots of new and shiny hardware (and chrome) in the picture?
Looks like ya used Pledge on yer Ck-1.

If anyone has any suggestions for pulling in that last transponder, I am all ears.
I am using the Geosat Pro CK-1 LNBF,

One word: SCALAR?
Don't you have some hacked up scalars from your 1m Primestar project?
Maybe you could use one of those?

Or as a test, a full scalar, and remove the Ku-SL2's for the time being.
Remember, they work fine 'cause that 1.5" shell has a built-in scalar.
The Ck-1 doesn't.

Also, if you have a conical scalar to test, this is the time to hang it out there.

 

[english2fourth]

so you did hook the cband lol

remember my post about the c at the center? glad to see you took my advice, lol! no kidding, thing looks great. can't believe what you have done. it is like a master blacksmith. thanks also for the pics, it helps me get the focal length on my prodelin 6...i had no support bars, so i have had to improvise. lucky i have masters like you working out the wrinkles and paving the way for flunkies like me to follow. anole said something about dual cband...are you going to try? i ordered my second cband bsc421, and that's my next trick. excellent work, and you better post the whole dish farm on the dish farm link!

 

[voomvoom]

I think I would try to skew the dish. Especially since it's a fixed dish.

 

[linuxman]

Love those bright 'n sparkling pictures!
New camera?
Or just lots of new and shiny hardware (and chrome) in the picture?
Looks like ya used Pledge on yer Ck-1.

Same old Sony Cybershot 3.2 mp I bought about 5 or 6 years ago. It likes lots of light.

One word: SCALAR?
Don't you have some hacked up scalars from your 1m Primestar project?
Maybe you could use one of those?

Or as a test, a full scalar, and remove the Ku-SL2's for the time being.
Remember, they work fine 'cause that 1.5" shell has a built-in scalar.
The Ck-1 doesn't.

Also, if you have a conical scalar to test, this is the time to hang it out there.

I am not so sure that scalars are the magical answer to the problem. Scalars do not funnel, or improve the signal directly. They only help keep unwanted signal from getting in.

The transponder in question is a 29,xxx SR, and there just might not be enough surface to pull it in.

I have the original scalar that has been butchered up some already that I can throw on there, but don't have much hope that will improve anything much.

remember my post about the c at the center? glad to see you took my advice, lol! no kidding, thing looks great. can't believe what you have done. it is like a master blacksmith. thanks also for the pics, it helps me get the focal length on my prodelin 6...i had no support bars, so i have had to improvise. lucky i have masters like you working out the wrinkles and paving the way for flunkies like me to follow. anole said something about dual cband...are you going to try? i ordered my second cband bsc421, and that's my next trick. excellent work, and you better post the whole dish farm on the dish farm link!

Thanks English, but I wouldn't exactly call myself a master blacksmith, or a master at anyting for that matter. I know many guys with much more talent than I possess. I am just a tinkerer and experimenter, and have worked at many jobs since elementary school and have seen many things. Fortunately I have a good memory and have retained all that knowledge through the years.

I hope to put the dual Geosat Pro C-2 LNBF on this dish for a stationary C-Band dish and I think it will be fine.

VoomVoom wrote:

I think I would try to skew the dish. Especially since it's a fixed dish.

Excellent idea, but would be really tough to implement because of it's size.

There is no substitute for size when it comes to C-Band signals. Some just will not come in on an undersized dish, but that won't stop me from trying.

I have a couple of other tricks I will try tomorrow.

 

[pendragon]

I am not so sure that scalars are the magical answer to the problem. Scalars do not funnel, or improve the signal directly. They only help keep unwanted signal from getting in.

The transponder in question is a 29,xxx SR, and there just might not be enough surface to pull it in.

A scalar well-matched to the dish can make a considerable improvement in nabbing difficult signals. It can improve CNR by tapering off the gain towards the outer portions of the dish to prevent thermal noise from the earth from reaching the LNB. It can also significantly reduce cross-polarization, which can be a serious factor at high SRs, tall FECs and S2. There are other benefits, but they start getting esoteric.

One problem may not only be the fact that this is an offset dish, but the f/D of such a dish is higher than typical C-band feeds and scalars are designed to match. This could mean your feeds are looking well beyond the edges of your dish. If so, that would hurt CNR. Recently I've been working at the other end of the spectrum (deep dishes), where one might arguably dispense with a scalar. Even there it looks like it's going to be worth designing a seriously different device; my early numbers indicate this should boost the efficiency close to that of a 'normal' dish. Coupled with already higher CNRs, I'm already beginning to lick my chops.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I got the bright idea the other day to make an attempt at getting as much of the Ku arc viewable from North America as possible using fixed Ku dishes and multi-lnbfs.

I want to be able to receive these signals on at least 2 receivers, perhaps more in at least 2 different rooms.

I have several Primestar 84es and one 75e currently. I know where I can get a couple more real easily.

I know several members here who have accomplished this using both un-committed and committed diseqc switches, and some who have used 22Khz switches only. I am going to attempt lnbs at 4 degrees apart as shown in my layout below. If you think I can get more than 3 lnbfs on each dish and how to place them that would be great. Keep in mind, that I would like to retain good reliable signal for each satellite.

If there is a better way to lay this out, please elaborate on your setup with picuters drawings etc. That would be very helpful.

Linux,

Not trying to burst your bubble on this subject, but I would recommend a motorized dish instead.

I didn't think that I would like it, since I would have to wait for the dish to pan from sat to sat to surf channels, but I find that it isn't that big of a deal and the motor (PowerTech DG-280) is pretty fast anyway.

There is a lot less hardware involved and you can see everything! Well, almost everything.

This is just my own opinion that I developed after trying to set up many fixed point dishes myself. When I got my motorized dish set up, I really did fall in love with it. It works better than I thought. You might wish to investigate it.

AcWxRadar

 

[linuxman]

Linux,

Not trying to burst your bubble on this subject, but I would recommend a motorized dish instead.

AcWxRadar

Quoted from Linuxman post # 151 above:

So for me to answer the discussion about getting the most Ku satellites with Ku fixed dishes, is to select 8 to 12 of the most popular satellites that you and your family will watch most of the time, and put 2 - 4 lnbfs on separate smaller fixed dishes that are more suitable for multi-lnbf configurations, and have one motorized ku dish for the rest of the arc that will only be watched occasionally.

I currently have 6 "motorized" C-Band dishes in my dish farm, and one "motorized" Primestar 84e, along with 5 fixed Primestar 84es currently in service.

I am merely trying to find a better way to combine all those dishes to receive the most watched channels on multiple receivers with the least amount of technical knowledge for my family.

Pendragon wrote:

A scalar well-matched to the dish can make a considerable improvement in nabbing difficult signals. It can improve CNR by tapering off the gain towards the outer portions of the dish to prevent thermal noise from the earth from reaching the LNB. It can also significantly reduce cross-polarization, which can be a serious factor at high SRs, tall FECs and S2. There are other benefits, but they start getting esoteric.

That is part of the problem. Finding a well-matched scalar to the dish is near impossible.

I do plan to try the scalar that came with the CK-1 today to see if it makes a difference. The other factor is how will it affect the Ku lnbfs I am trying to use at the same time?

One problem may not only be the fact that this is an offset dish, but the f/D of such a dish is higher than typical C-band feeds and scalars are designed to match. This could mean your feeds are looking well beyond the edges of your dish. If so, that would hurt CNR. Recently I've been working at the other end of the spectrum (deep dishes), where one might arguably dispense with a scalar. Even there it looks like it's going to be worth designing a seriously different device; my early numbers indicate this should boost the efficiency close to that of a 'normal' dish. Coupled with already higher CNRs, I'm already beginning to lick my chops.

I agree that I am trying to use this dish for a purpose for which it was never intended, but given that, it works very well as it stands right now. I am just trying to get the maximum I can out of it within reason.

Will report back with further findings a little later.

 

[pendragon]

That is part of the problem. Finding a well-matched scalar to the dish is near impossible.

I do plan to try the scalar that came with the CK-1 today to see if it makes a difference. The other factor is how will it affect the Ku lnbfs I am trying to use at the same time?

Given the high f/D, you're likely better off with any scalar rather than nothing at all. If you had a very low f/D, taking a typical scalar off might actually help. In your case if the scalar rings can extend slightly beyond the feed opening, that should be a better match. Tuning a scalar without a spectrum analyzer will be tricky, because SQ is ill-defined/arbitrary and may not reflect the actual quality of a signal lock or reception margin. Still it's certainly better than nothing.

While everything has an effect, I wouldn't expect a C-band scalar would cause any significant problems for your Ku LNBFs.

 

[equant]

WBIF is now a "This TV" affiliate which (as you posted above) is already on a dish at AMC3 C-Band (and G18)

FYI, WBIF does carry some non "This TV" programming. I know they play some college sports. Not sure what else if any.

 

[linuxman]

So, I went out earlier and tried some more adjustment on the CK-1 as it was on the dish, and no dice. Bouncing 0-15% SQ was all I could get out of the transponder in question.

I decided to put on a MA/Com orthomode C-Band only feed that I have here. Popped on the MA/Com, and it was actually worse than the CK-1. Don't know why, just was. So i put the CK-1 back on and moved my receiver/tuner to the dish adjusters in the back of the dish. When I moved the dish in place I was using the ku signals on this satellite and they were all at 99% SQ. It was very difficult to tell whether I was smack on the satellite or not, so I tried raising and lowering it just a tad, and by raising it just a smidge I got a little better signal, so I didn't have it perfectly bore-sighted on the satellite.

So next I tried a little side to side and movement and the signal went from 0-15% to a rock solid 30% and was locked. So I scanned in the transponder and got the channels I was looking for. They weren't watchable, and i thought dang!!!!

I moved the receiver/tuner equipment around in front of the dish again, and I hung the stinking flat scalar on there, mind you just hung it, and went from 30% to 45% all perfectly watchable.

I have never been much of a believer in scalars on off-set dishes because they didn't do a thing for me in my 1M Primestar experiment, but it sure made a difference here.

Pendragon wrote:

Given the high f/D, you're likely better off with any scalar rather than nothing at all. If you had a very low f/D, taking a typical scalar off might actually help. In your case if the scalar rings can extend slightly beyond the feed opening, that should be a better match. Tuning a scalar without a spectrum analyzer will be tricky, because SQ is ill-defined/arbitrary and may not reflect the actual quality of a signal lock or reception margin. Still it's certainly better than nothing.

Pendragon, you and Anole keep on telling people how important the scalars are, even if they aren't matched perfectly to the dish.

So I pulled my "beloved" scalar off and drilled a hole in it for the 123W SL2, put eveything in place, and the tiny movement put the lowest transponder on 123W at a rock solid 75% SQ with the rest at either 90% SQ or 99% SQ.

Checked 125W, and the lowest signal is at 90% SQ with the rest at 99%.

Checked 129W, and it jumped from 10% SQ to 30% SQ. Keep in mind, I didn't adjust any of the Ku LNBFs, just checked them with the movement of the dish.

This dish is ready for the permanent pole mount. No since in tuning any further until ready for final.

Linuxman is a happy camper today.

Here are the pics of the scalar before and after:



Time to start on the Primestars.

 

[pendragon]

Congrats! Good to see you're satisfied enough to move to the next stage.

 

[Cadsulfide]

This has been a very cool journey you have been on.

On a graph, a parabola kinda looks like a rainbow.

You have not only caught the Leprecon but seized his pot 'o gold.

 

[Anole]

Now that you've decided to aim the Prodelin off your TS bird, the curve of the LNB support you made is no longer optimum.
Having studied that dish, I know of no way to skew it, but you could slant a new LNB support tube to roughly follow the line you now have established.
Could possibly even go back to those easier-to-adjust plastic LNB mounts from SatAV, too.

If there's any need to monitor the DBS birds in that part of the sky, the tiny feedhorn for 119° off a SuperDish 121 might fit okay.
Stogie has one in his hands now, and is contemplating where to stick it.
Just need to use a bandsaw to separate it from the 121 horn.
Pix available by JerryT; let me know if I need to find 'em for ya.
110° and 148° shouldn't present a feedhorn crowing problem, not on that dish!
So, anything should work out.

 

[linuxman]

Congrats! Good to see you're satisfied enough to move to the next stage.

Thanks for your help Pendragon. Yes it is time to move to the Primestar phase.

Cadsulfide wrote:

This has been a very cool journey you have been on.

On a graph, a parabola kinda looks like a rainbow.

You have not only caught the Leprecon but seized his pot 'o gold.

That's what I felt like when I finally got watchable channels on that last transponder.

Anole wrote:

Now that you've decided to aim the Prodelin off your TS bird, the curve of the LNB support you made is no longer optimum.
Having studied that dish, I know of no way to skew it, but you could slant a new LNB support tube to roughly follow the line you now have established.
Could possibly even go back to those easier-to-adjust plastic LNB mounts from SatAV, too.

Well I have always been of the opinion that if "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!

Too many times in the past have I tried "fixing" something only to spend an extra day to get back where I was.

If there's any need to monitor the DBS birds in that part of the sky, the tiny feedhorn for 119° off a SuperDish 121 might fit okay.
Stogie has one in his hands now, and is contemplating where to stick it.
Just need to use a bandsaw to separate it from the 121 horn.
Pix available by JerryT; let me know if I need to find 'em for ya.
110° and 148° shouldn't present a feedhorn crowing problem, not on that dish!
So, anything should work out.

Thanks, I have several DBS LNBFs laying around here, and plan to put some on the Prodelin to go with the others, but am going to wait until it is on it's permanent pole.

Hope to get one of the Primestars off the roof today, so I can start setting things up here on the ground.

 

[linuxman]

Well, here is my first victim, er, I mean Primestar.

This first dish will be setup for 89W-83W. They are 44.9 and 44.2 degrees of elevation for me respectively.

Should I just go with what I know that works, see the completed 87-97W multi-lnb that I used a couple of years ago below? Just point in the middle at 85W or close to it and adjust the ends towards the middle?

That has worked pretty well for 87-97W that I mentioned above.

Or should I be a little more creative? I have some nice black holders here I got from SatelliteAV, but really don't have a way to attach them unless I pull that elbow out of the Primestar support arm, if it can be pulled out.

See pics below:

 

[gabshere]

i used two conduit holders off the backside of the original holder and put a 1/2 inch conduit in it and then you can use your SatAv holders from there.

if i can find a picture when i get home i will post it

EDITED to add "you can"

EDIT to add pics

 

[linuxman]

i used two conduit holders off the backside of the original holder and put a 1/2 inch conduit in it and then use your SatAv holders from that.

if i can find a picture when i get home i will post it

I'll be looking forward to the picture!