BD or HD-DVD do you really care?

[navychop]

Oh, I don't know, I'm just admitting that I'd be tempted to buy an HD DVD player if it dropped below $200, as you mentioned as possible. I'd have to find a few movies in the format that I wanted though. Shouldn't be too hard.

No matter what, I'll get a Blu-ray or dual player first. Might end up with a player for both formats. But I'd want to have a stronger feeling that HD DVD will last as long as Blu-ray, even if both are headed for history. I guess as long as the players work....

This last development is having the same effect on me as it no doubt is on many others- increased reluctance to make the leap. I'd hate to have over a thousand dollars tied up in players and movies only to see high def discs fade in 3 or so years. And since Starship Troopers is delayed, maybe I'll just sit out 2007 after all.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Other good thing about two players right now, is they are much cheaper than the combo.

The A2 is $238 on Amazon with 5 free movies which aint bad, but I checked new releases and my netflix queue, I wont need the HDDVD player till late 07. So ill pick up a A2/A3 around then. Ill prob aim for a A3 especially if the deals are right. Some have rumored the A3 will come at $200, which will be pretty good.

 

[navychop]

If I got two players, I'd almost certainly have to replace my receiver, to get the extra connections. Getting into $$$$s rapidly.

 

[gadgtfreek]

If I got two players, I'd almost certainly have to replace my receiver, to get the extra connections. Getting into $$$$s rapidly.

HDMI switchers are getting pretty cheap on monoprice.com.

Dunno if you meant hdmi or other audio stuff.

 

[JoeSp]

The only place I've ever read that the PS3 has a secondary video decoder is that computer magazine review you linked to some time back. I hope your right that the PS3 will be BD 1.1 compliant - that's one of the main reasons I went with a PS3 as a BD player, even though I have no interest in gaming. Back in March when I bought, I figured if any current BD player could meet the new standards, it was the PS3.


Try this, start a movie demo then press the X button (I am not at home and this might be the wrong button) and then go to the games and watch the game's intial box play. The movie demo will play in the background while the game demo will play in its own box just like you were selecting the game right before playing it. This is the two video decoders working in the PS3.

 

[JoeSp]

X-Box 360 and PCs. for entertainment centers (the OS and related technologies) and VC-1 as the favored codec on HD-DVD. MS also is now selling their VC-1 encoder.

Wow, but you weren't expecting that answer; were you?

Cheers,

The only info there that is related to a high def disc format is the VC-1 codec. Since the XBOX360 does not come with a HD-DVD (you have to purchase seperately) and there are very few PC's hooked up to Home Theater systems (J6P is definately not going to invest also in a PC to watch HD) and since M$ does not own VC-1 outright (Seems there are other companies who own that), none of these is a reason for M$ to toss money around and extend this 'format war' longer then need be.

It is the VC-1 encoders that M$ is interested in. Since the BD group uses VC-1 what gain could M$ possible get delay what was the inevitable a few more months? Their VC-1 encoders would still get purchased and used. Perhaps it will be worth the few $100 mill that M$ has tossed out so that they could sink both HD discs formats so that all we will have left is downloadable HD content delivered by M$ encoders. This is M$'s real dog in these current deals and this dog really does not want a HD disc based format for movies to survive. There is more money for M$ to make if neither format replaces DVD.

 

[JoeSp]

Oh, I don't know, I'm just admitting that I'd be tempted to buy an HD DVD player if it dropped below $200, as you mentioned as possible. I'd have to find a few movies in the format that I wanted though. Shouldn't be too hard.

No matter what, I'll get a Blu-ray or dual player first. Might end up with a player for both formats. But I'd want to have a stronger feeling that HD DVD will last as long as Blu-ray, even if both are headed for history. I guess as long as the players work....

This last development is having the same effect on me as it no doubt is on many others- increased reluctance to make the leap. I'd hate to have over a thousand dollars tied up in players and movies only to see high def discs fade in 3 or so years. And since Starship Troopers is delayed, maybe I'll just sit out 2007 after all.

This is exactly what M$ wants you to do. Buy nothing, invest in nothing, and keep the market acceptance low. By doing this in two years M$ can tell all the studios -- 'see the HD disc format is not desirable by most consumers -- it would be better to offer only HD downloadable content thru the internet so the consumer can purchase whatever movie they want and forget about all those bell and whistles -- (BD-Java, iHD, lossless audio codecs) nobody was really interested in that stuff anyway.'

Oh yeah, just what I wanted, M$ being able to control what I watch, how I watch it and what features I get----not!!

 

[tonyp56]

Joe,

To start, the reason why one side argues that the other side is wrong is because no body wants to admit that they might be wrong. In other words, you won't agree with me that HD-DVD is the best choice, nor will I agree that Blu-Ray is the best choice because I don't want to even think HD-DVD is going to lose.

Now onto your questions,

A) Players and movies would provide better PQ and Sound and prices would be falling as quickly? um, OK, if there is only 1 format, it slim-lines production of players for everyone, the disc for all companies, packaging, advertisements, etc... Lets say between the two "camps" there is 50 million spent on R & D on making technology better, and another 30 million spent trying to convince the world that one format is better than the other. If there was only one format, 80 million would be spent on R&D. How wouldn't that make the products better?

B) Would a single HD format be selling in such low numbers at this point?
NO, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there was one format, high definition DVD's (both use a blue laser) would at least combine their sales into one. Instead of Blu-Ray selling 450,000 movies and HD-DVD selling 250,000 movies, it would be 700,000 HD movies sold. Then on top of that, no more confusion, more people would be out there buying movies, players, etc. because the fear that they might pick the wrong format wouldn't be there anymore. So now instead of combined 700,000 movies, your pushing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... million movies!

C) Would as many of us be using that format right now? There would be more, I don't have a crystal ball, but I can't see there not being more.

D) Would we have anything to be so passioned about right now?
How about we should be worried about something else now? Heck, take the money that some have used to buy both formats with, and give to the poor--through charities or whatever--getting away from fossil fuels period, let alone our dependence on foreign nations for our oil. How about actually saying world peace and really meaning it. There is no end to what we could be passionate about.

Ok, so why do I lean towards HD-DVD? (to better answer the question about why both sides argue against the other.) I don't like Sony. Plain and simple. If I can have it my way, I'll never buy anything Sony or Sony related in anyway. Sony was/is a big backer in Blu-Ray (PS3, Sony Pictures, R&D, etc.) and that is enough for me to pick the other format (I have the HD-DVD player for my Xbox 360). Now, if, and I say if, HD-DVD ends up going away, I'll of course buy a Blu-Ray player (guess what brand I won't buy though? LOL). But until then, until I have no other choice, I'll stay away from Sony or anything coming from Sony.

Now, ask me the obvious question, "what about which format is better?" IMHO, neither has an edge over the other to make it a clear winner (HD is HD is it not?) Now I'll admit Blu-Ray has a capacity edge, but beyond that, noda. Both display HD picture, both have quality audio, etc... For every person that says X has better audio/video than Y, there is another saying the opposite.

 

[JoeSp]

Tony, I will agree that there seems to be no PQ differance right now but there is an audio differance. With PCM the BD group has provided a lossless 5.1 format for most BD titles. This is possible only because of the additional space provided. Something else that space provides is the use of MPEG4-AVC which some reviewers like much better then VC-1. Also the bit rate of BD is considerably higher then HD-DVD. In addtion, the bulk (80%) of the movies I like are coming from the BD only camp. These are the reasons I support BD--choice.

As for Sony, I like the Playstation product and the games available. The PS brand has always had more diversified game offerings then everyone else. Perhaps M$ will continue to do well with the XBOX360 but untill those rings of death are a thing of the past I am not buying one. I don't have anything else Sony because their products are simply tooo expensive. Their XBR3 LCD's are killer though and I am waiting for Samsungs new LED based LCDs before buying the wife a HDTV for her throne room (our bed room).

Sony's practices are no differant then Microsoft's. I think this hate of Sony and not M$ is based on M$ being an American company and Sony being a Japanese company. Both are guilty of throwing money around, trying to control our products thru innovation and software, and trying to 'kill' the other guy by 'taking' their ideas and content. They are no differant, I just do not want one company having control over everything. M$ has their hands around the neck of the computer world, they are currently trying to buy up everthing in the video game world and now they want control over my movies by buying up and into everthing to do with HD movies? At what point Tony is enough enough?

Except for the advanced features of iHD (this will be matched by BD-JAVA) HD-DVD is inferior based on the bottom line -- more space, higher bit rates, ability to use multiple codecs, more choice for both the studio, manufacturer and the consumer -- all of this goes to the BD products being offered and coming down the pipeline. You will never see MPEG4-AVC on HD-DVD as long as M$ is involved. In this instance M$'s involvement is preventing HD-DVD from using MPEG4- why? Competition of course. Let's prevent competition and all that money has to come our way eventually. In this instance I do not see how HD-DVD is providing that choice -- seems that BD using all three codecs is the one offering choice.

Back when everyone was at the table M$ offered a simple request, use VC-1 only and iHD or else. Everyone else took or else and M$ walked away from the table with Toshiba and Universal. They are the ones who walked out on the one format only discussion. Toshiba could not have walked away on their own -- M$ created this mess not Sony.

 

[diogen]

...I don't like Sony. Plain and simple.

I'd sign under this statement. For one reason: rootkit.
If there would be such an option: BD winning and Sony going out of business, I'd be all for it.

They won't get a penny from me in the forseeable future.
Just like Adobe after the Sklyarov case.

Diogen.

 

[gadgtfreek]

After Navy posts this weeks numbers(they are out) it makes Paramounts decision even funnier. They took short term money over long term, not very smart business IMHO.

 

[diogen]

And yet Sony gave up the Vhs/Beta war to Toshiba...

Toshiba was making Beta players...

You will never see MPEG4-AVC on HD-DVD as long as M$ is involved. In this instance M$'s involvement is preventing HD-DVD from using MPEG4- why? Competition of course.

What about those?
- Lucky Number Slevin
- Babel
- Payback
- School of Scoundrels
- Freedom Writers
- Harsh Times
- Black Christmas


Just out of curiosity: do you ever plan to quit the FtF (F*ck the Facts) party?

Diogen.

 

[teachsac]

Toshiba was making Beta players...

Yeap. VHS=JVC not Toshiba.

S~

 

[CochiseGuy]

Toshiba was making Beta players...

What about those?
- Lucky Number Slevin
- Babel
- Payback
- School of Scoundrels
- Freedom Writers
- Harsh Times
- Black Christmas


Diogen.

I'm pretty sure there's several more with AVC, but I do know my most recent HD DVD from Paramount has AVC - The Shooter (July 31 release).

 

[navychop]

I'd sign under this statement. For one reason: rootkit.
If there would be such an option: BD winning and Sony going out of business, I'd be all for it.

They won't get a penny from me in the forseeable future.
Just like Adobe after the Sklyarov case.

Diogen.

I agree completely. But I still view the technical aspects of Blu-ray as superior. That doesn't mean they'll win, but that's where my nickel is at.

Regarding an earlier posting- if there was only one format, and it was HD DVD, we'd have a red laser based system. Double ungood and insufficient.

 

[John Kotches]

The only info there that is related to a high def disc format is the VC-1 codec. Since the XBOX360 does not come with a HD-DVD (you have to purchase seperately) and there are very few PC's hooked up to Home Theater systems (J6P is definately not going to invest also in a PC to watch HD) and since M$ does not own VC-1 outright (Seems there are other companies who own that), none of these is a reason for M$ to toss money around and extend this 'format war' longer then need be.

MS is in the patent pool. And they realize all the revenue for the encoders. The goal isn't just VC-1 for HD movies though; it's VC-1 everywhere. Sound familiar?

At least the people on the project (and I know several of them) are passionate about the results.

It is the VC-1 encoders that M$ is interested in. Since the BD group uses VC-1 what gain could M$ possible get delay what was the inevitable a few more months?

I left off HDi -- which I think is quite critical.

Their VC-1 encoders would still get purchased and used. Perhaps it will be worth the few $100 mill that M$ has tossed out so that they could sink both HD discs formats so that all we will have left is downloadable HD content delivered by M$ encoders. This is M$'s real dog in these current deals and this dog really does not want a HD disc based format for movies to survive. There is more money for M$ to make if neither format replaces DVD.

We are a minimum of 10 years away from the necessary bandwidth to make downloads a practical solution. Assuming we could nail down the full bandwidth of our connections; to download a two hour movie at an average of 12 Mbits/second (all streams) it would take:

768K: 32 hours
1.5M: 16 hours
3.0M: 8 hours*
6.0M: 4 hours*
16.0M: 1.75 hours (Real time playback possible)

The 16 Mbit option is for those with FiOS service @ 16 Mbits/second. However it is unlikely that people will be able to nail down their full bandwidth for the download. If you add about 1/3 to the above figures you'll get a more realistic estimage of time windows... So we'd have:

768K: 42 hours
1.5M: 21 hours
3.0M: 10.5 hours
6.0M: 5.25 hours*
16.0M: 2.6 hours * (Realtime with a 40 minute headstart + bufffering).

I consider 8 hours or less to be workable. Anything above is not. Too long; and too much opportunity for failure otherwise.

 

[tnsprin]

MS is in the patent pool. And they realize all the revenue for the encoders. The goal isn't just VC-1 for HD movies though; it's VC-1 everywhere. Sound familiar?

At least the people on the project (and I know several of them) are passionate about the results.




I left off HDi -- which I think is quite critical.



We are a minimum of 10 years away from the necessary bandwidth to make downloads a practical solution. Assuming we could nail down the full bandwidth of our connections; to download a two hour movie at an average of 12 Mbits/second (all streams) it would take:

768K: 32 hours
1.5M: 16 hours
3.0M: 8 hours*
6.0M: 4 hours*
16.0M: 1.75 hours (Real time playback possible)

The 16 Mbit option is for those with FiOS service @ 16 Mbits/second. However it is unlikely that people will be able to nail down their full bandwidth for the download. If you add about 1/3 to the above figures you'll get a more realistic estimage of time windows... So we'd have:

768K: 42 hours
1.5M: 21 hours
3.0M: 10.5 hours
6.0M: 5.25 hours*
16.0M: 2.6 hours * (Realtime with a 40 minute headstart + bufffering).

I consider 8 hours or less to be workable. Anything above is not. Too long; and too much opportunity for failure otherwise.

Would you want a movie with only 12 mbps, even compressed with mpeg4(h.264 or VC1)? Not me. And 10 years may see great improvement in HDTV sets so that everyone will notice the difference.

 

[diogen]

Would you want a movie with only 12 mbps, even compressed with mpeg4(h.264 or VC1)? Not me.

Why not? We are talking average - not peak - bitrate. IIRC, VC-1 encoded video on HD DVD almost from the beginning was 12-15Mbps.
Historically, over the live of MPEG-2 in the form of DVDs, the efficiency of MPEG-2 encoding approximately doubled (according to many insiders). Modern codecs - VC-1 and AVC - are at very early stages of their development and will certainly improve, especially AVC. I believe high quality video encoding (what would normally be considered transparent to the source by the majority) in 1-2 years will be around 10Mbps, plus 2-3 Mbps audio.

And 10 years may see great improvement in HDTV sets so that everyone will notice the difference.

I don't believe consumer TVs will cross the 1920x1080 resolution for at least 10 years.
The movie making technology has to take the leap first (many masters today have lower resolution audio/video than we are able to reproduce in our home theatres).

Diogen.

 

[John Kotches]

Would you want a movie with only 12 mbps, even compressed with mpeg4(h.264 or VC1)? Not me. And 10 years may see great improvement in HDTV sets so that everyone will notice the difference.

12 Mbps with 10 years of improvements in encoders?

Hmmm...

How does DVD look now vs. when it was first introduced?

Cheers,

 

[TBoneit]

BD or HD-DVD do you really care? Nope. I'm happy storing in HD from my HD DVR onto external USB2 drives (3 right now) Will I be spending cent one to replace my DVD collection, Nope again. Will I be purchasing either format? Nope once more time. Do I think Sony or Microsoft are evil empires? Nope. I like Windows XP And My Sony TV and DVD changer.

Will I buy more external USB2 drives to store HD videos on rather than on my HD DVR? Yup when they are on sale.