Am I headed toward an Installation Problem?

[raysmith]

I recently called Dish to upgrade from a 508 to a 722 w/ HD and scheduled my install for last week. When the installer got there – he said the current location of my dish can’t see the 129 signal – my neighbor’s garage is in the way. (According to dishpointer,com – he’s right!) My dish is attached to the foundation of my house, at ground level at the back corner of our house. The installer said the only thing to do is to move it up, about half way up the side of the house - or on the roof. I suggested keeping it a ground level, but moving towards the front of the house (and away from the neighbor’s garage) into a landscaped area, about 8 feet from the house. He said he couldn’t do that because they didn’t like to bury the cables. It was already 8:00 PM by the time he had gotten there anyway and I said I had to talk to my wife about it - so we postponed.

I believe that spot I identified should allow for a clear shot at all three satellites – but it will require a pole mount of the dish – and of course - burying the cables! I called Dish back and they assured me that this would all be fine – that they will specify that this is a pole mount install and that the new installer (someone other than the one who came the first time) will do everything they need to do to get it done right, etc. etc. etc.

The rep on the phone made it all sound too easy. I am scheduled for installation this Thursday (2/7) and I have some questions that perhaps people here could help me with.

1. Assuming the installer is going to dig a hole 18-24 inches deep – don't we need to contact the utility companies to know where the gas, electric, phone, and water lines are? Seems like that will take a few days – just for that!

2. I assume this is a multi-day operation to dig, pour the cement, bury the cables, then install the Dish at a later date – once the cement is dry, right? Again the rep on the phone said it would all be taken care of.

3. Should the cables be put in conduit for burial? I assume this makes life easier down the road if we need to add any cables later – but would this be a typical install?

4. And finally - I live in suburban Chicago!! There are currently 4 inches of snow on the ground and 3-6 more coming tonight! Is this even feasible this time of year?

I’m not trying to get something for nothing. I am willing to pay additional for a proper installation – in my preferred location. It’s difficult when you can’t talk to the people doing the install - until they actually come to install it!

I really prefer to keep the dish at ground level. In fact, if I have to, I’d consider going to Direct rather than put a dish on the roof since they don’t use 129. However, my preference is to stay with Dish.

Sorry for the long-winded description, but am I headed for trouble here?

Ray Smith
Batavia, Illinois

 

[Jared Twomey]

depends on who they send out to do it...
the companies i install for, don't do pole mounts for free. They charge for the pole mount, and burial of the wire, generally in conduit, is usually included.
That said... as an installer, I wouldn't be digging a trench in frozen ground.
You say you are willing to pay to have it done the way you want it done, and thats great, but if you really want it done right, set a pole before the installer gets there. That way he has no excuse, and it will be installed where you want it.

as far as your questions
1)i personally think they should, but most installers don't.
2)in decent weather it shouldnt take more than a few hours. If they set the concrete right away, it should be set enough after a few hours to put the dish on... but at freezing temperatures, it can take forever for concrete to set.
3)most installers won't put it in conduit, they will just use flooded burial cable
4)not if i was the installer

 

[Scott6760]

If you really want it done your way explain that to the installer when he arrives and offer to pay him extra in cash for doing the pole mount and you will bury the cables yourself when the ground thaws. Your upgrade sounds like a PITA even in good weather, I can't imagine trying to do that in 6"+ of snow. As long as he drives the pole into the ground a good 12" PAST the hole for the concrete, there is no need to wait for the concrete to set. Also in that weather HOT water will set the concrete faster.

 

[DTVTech50051]

If you really want it done your way explain that to the installer when he arrives and offer to pay him extra in cash for doing the pole mount and you will bury the cables yourself when the ground thaws. Your upgrade sounds like a PITA even in good weather, I can't imagine trying to do that in 6"+ of snow. As long as he drives the pole into the ground a good 12" PAST the hole for the concrete, there is no need to wait for the concrete to set. Also in that weather HOT water will set the concrete faster.

And when it warms up in the spring the concrete wil crack bc you used a shortcut.

 

[ajax33]

1. Should contact your local Digsafe or whatever your utility location service is called.

2. Multi-day operation? No. If it were me, if you can dig right now where you live, which here in Iowa most places you can't, now if the hole can't be dug, more than likely he will just pound the pole in the ground for now and tell you that he will be back in the spring to finish, which he may or may not do unless you call.

3. You are not going to find a tech who will buy the conduit for you, but I would think that if you buy it, he would probably have no problem using it. Just make sure to get big enough conduit.

4. Finally Yes it is feasible, in fact I did a pole mount today here in Iowa, I fully set the pole, but wasn't able to bury the cable. Sometime the snow actually helps prevent the ground from freezing but insulating it, so it is possible.

 

[Liquidforce88]

1. Assuming the installer is going to dig a hole 18-24 inches deep – don't we need to contact the utility companies to know where the gas, electric, phone, and water lines are? Seems like that will take a few days – just for that!

You should if you think there may be something in that area. A good installer can tell if there is something there most of the time, but you may have to call. Might be a good idea to just call and have it done before the installer comes. It's a free service and they do it within 3 days.

2. I assume this is a multi-day operation to dig, pour the cement, bury the cables, then install the Dish at a later date – once the cement is dry, right? Again the rep on the phone said it would all be taken care of.

No can all be done very quickly with quick-crete

3. Should the cables be put in conduit for burial? I assume this makes life easier down the road if we need to add any cables later – but would this be a typical install?

Dish does not require it, so no installer is going to provide it free. You can ask if they will install some if you have it but they are going to want extra money for the extra work.

4. And finally - I live in suburban Chicago!! There are currently 4 inches of snow on the ground and 3-6 more coming tonight! Is this even feasible this time of year?

This will be the hard part if your ground is frozen.

I’m not trying to get something for nothing. I am willing to pay additional for a proper installation – in my preferred location. It’s difficult when you can’t talk to the people doing the install - until they actually come to install it!

I really prefer to keep the dish at ground level. In fact, if I have to, I’d consider going to Direct rather than put a dish on the roof since they don’t use 129. However, my preference is to stay with Dish.

Sorry for the long-winded description, but am I headed for trouble here?

Ray Smith
Batavia, Illinois

Just so you know a Dish tech or and RSP tech will include a pole mount with 50' of slit trench as part of the install. A retail tech or a contract tech can charge for pole mounts.

 

[vegassatellite]

Call Before You Dig is ALWAYS a good idea. Why chance a ruptured gas line for instant gratification?

Pole mounts can be set right away if installer digs hole and then pounds pole down below hole so that it stands unsupported without concrete. The addition of concrete serves to provide permanent stability under wind loads, etc.

Tech won't likely provide conduit. If you want this, then place the conduit yourself and put a pull string in it so the tech can pull through real easy. Bonus points if its buried before he gets there. No sharp bends, use long sweep bends.

As far as frozen ground goes for the pole mount, build a fire on the spot. Keep it going as hot coals for a good day or two. Then, when installer arrives, just rake the coals away from the pole site. Marshmallows are optional. Hot dogs for you and the tech are a must.

The fire will kill the ground cover for a good while so keep it contained to a modest sized area.

 

[cparker]

I am admittedly unfamiliar with the technique used by an installer to dig the hole for the pole. If they are using a power auger, then yes, definitely call underground utilities. If it's a hand dig, then they really don't need to call. At least in my experience in construction. You're not going to break a water line with a shovel. And electrical, phone, etc are usually in conduit.

A 2 foot by 2 foot hole that's 2 feet deep is "normal" for a garden... planting a shrub, for instance, and unless you have real reason to believe there's something buried there, I'd just go dig the hole. You look for things like... where's the electric service entrance, gas meter, water meter (water and gas will almost SURELY be buried more than 2 feet deep regardless), phone service entrance... etc.

The fire-on-the-ground method is absolutely valid. And if you can't build the fire right on the spot (for whatever reason) then build it in your grill or in the back yard or whatever and then take the hot coals and dump them on that spot. I live in the western NY area (Buffalo/Niagara Falls) so winter construction is no mystery here. If the ground is deeply frozen... and I strongly suspect it isn't, despite the snow cover, the fire-on-the-ground will work quite well. If only the top 2 to 4 inches is really frozen, then you can actually break through that and then it's "normal" digging. A garden spade or square shovel used in a prying/scraping method will have your hole dug in no time. If you are concerned about underground utilities DO NOT jab-and-jump. Don't stick a spade in the ground and then jump on it to force it in. Take your time and it'll actually be easier than you think.

Concrete will set up and cure perfectly well in freezing weather. Mix it with warm water (not HOT). Pour or shovel it into the hole as you normally would. Put a piece of plastic over it, cover it with an old, thick, blanket, and/or cover it with a deep layer of mulch that won't compress easily. Keep it insulated for a few days. Concrete generates heat as it cures. If you insulate it, it will be just fine. We've poured SIDEWALKS in freezing weather and foundations for homes. Pour it warm and then insulate it. It just plain works and you're not venturing into "experimental" territory.

I would think that for a couple of hours of YOUR time invested into this, the installer will come out, do your pole mount and be on his way and you'll have what you want.

 

[Liquidforce88]

I am admittedly unfamiliar with the technique used by an installer to dig the hole for the pole. If they are using a power auger, then yes, definitely call underground utilities. If it's a hand dig, then they really don't need to call. At least in my experience in construction. You're not going to break a water line with a shovel. And electrical, phone, etc are usually in conduit.

A 2 foot by 2 foot hole that's 2 feet deep is "normal" for a garden... planting a shrub, for instance, and unless you have real reason to believe there's something buried there, I'd just go dig the hole. You look for things like... where's the electric service entrance, gas meter, water meter (water and gas will almost SURELY be buried more than 2 feet deep regardless), phone service entrance... etc.

I am sure it is different in other parts of the country. In Michigan gas lines only have to be 18" deep and they are freakin plastic, several of our techs have hit them with a shovel. Phone lines underground are also not in any kind of conduit, I personally have hit those(thank goodness I have a cousin that works for the phone company and I can get the repair kits).

 

[raysmith]

Thank you for all the comments and suggestions! We got even more snow yesterday – so I canceled the install that was scheduled for today and postponed it until late March. As much fun as you guys made a campfire in February sound – I think I’ll wait until the ground warms up a bit more. Hopefully the snow will have melted and the ground will be soft. That will also give me time to call the utility service to come and mark where the underground wires and pipes are located and to consider the use of conduit. The other lesson I take is that it sounds like it’s always a good idea to treat your installer well!

Again, I really appreciate the information coming from this site. With Dish sort of hiding the identity of my installer until they show up, this is really the only way to get some background and ask questions before the actual installation appointment.

Thanks again!

Ray Smith
Batavia IL

 

[Skibum]

With Dish sort of hiding the identity of my installer until they show up, this is really the only way to get some background and ask questions before the actual installation appointment.

Thanks again!

Ray Smith
Batavia IL

It's likely they don't know who your installer is. I don't know what jobs I'll be going to until the morning of getting my equipment. The RSP I work for handles all the precalls and routing. I also don't have a cell phone.

 

[Van]

I am admittedly unfamiliar with the technique used by an installer to dig the hole for the pole. If they are using a power auger, then yes, definitely call underground utilities. If it's a hand dig, then they really don't need to call. At least in my experience in construction. You're not going to break a water line with a shovel. And electrical, phone, etc are usually in conduit.

Regardless of wether its power or hand dug you have to call digsafe or misdig or whatever its called, a spade can easily cut through a phone line and puncture a gas line with one hit. Phone and electrical in conduit are only a very recent thing and only in some area's, the last new subdivision that I worked in in 06 that was still going in had no utilities in conduit outside in the ground.

A 2 foot by 2 foot hole that's 2 feet deep is "normal" for a garden... planting a shrub, for instance, and unless you have real reason to believe there's something buried there, I'd just go dig the hole. You look for things like... where's the electric service entrance, gas meter, water meter (water and gas will almost SURELY be buried more than 2 feet deep regardless), phone service entrance... etc.

Pole mounts are supposed to be dug deep enough to get below the frost line wich in Chicago is 3ft. If a pole mount is going out front or anywhere along the side ahead of any utility boxes or meters or entry points then you really should call. In some neighborhoods there are utilities that come to the house from the backyard by way of a right of way or an alley. In my neighborhood each house has a ceptic field in the back yard so theres something else to consider.

The fire-on-the-ground method is absolutely valid. And if you can't build the fire right on the spot (for whatever reason) then build it in your grill or in the back yard or whatever and then take the hot coals and dump them on that spot. I live in the western NY area (Buffalo/Niagara Falls) so winter construction is no mystery here. If the ground is deeply frozen... and I strongly suspect it isn't, despite the snow cover, the fire-on-the-ground will work quite well. If only the top 2 to 4 inches is really frozen, then you can actually break through that and then it's "normal" digging. A garden spade or square shovel used in a prying/scraping method will have your hole dug in no time. If you are concerned about underground utilities DO NOT jab-and-jump. Don't stick a spade in the ground and then jump on it to force it in. Take your time and it'll actually be easier than you think.

Fire on the ground would have to go for a long while and in the city or suburb will get a phone call quickly to the fire department and is also most likely against one or more ordinances. Out in the countryside it can also be a bad idea if your in an area that has controlled burn laws or your in drought such as a large portion of the south east and the west coast. You can clear the snow off the area and cover it with black plastic sheeting letting the sun heat the ground that way and covering it at night with straw or some old blankets to hold in some heat.

Concrete will set up and cure perfectly well in freezing weather. Mix it with warm water (not HOT). Pour or shovel it into the hole as you normally would. Put a piece of plastic over it, cover it with an old, thick, blanket, and/or cover it with a deep layer of mulch that won't compress easily. Keep it insulated for a few days. Concrete generates heat as it cures. If you insulate it, it will be just fine. We've poured SIDEWALKS in freezing weather and foundations for homes. Pour it warm and then insulate it. It just plain works and you're not venturing into "experimental" territory.

Right on the money there, I've even went so far as to cap the top of the pole with plastic bags to hold in the heat in the pipe.

I would think that for a couple of hours of YOUR time invested into this, the installer will come out, do your pole mount and be on his way and you'll have what you want.

Another good point, company wide wether its inhouse or not installers are working more and more hours and harder each year for less and less and if you are willing to do a few things before hand and while he's there your more likely to end up with a few extra's from the installer and a positive outcome.

 

[dishcomm]

And when it warms up in the spring the concrete wil crack bc you used a shortcut.

HUH?...Concrete produces heat during the setting/ curing process.

 

[dishcomm]

I recently called Dish to upgrade from a 508 to a 722 w/ HD and scheduled my install for last week. When the installer got there – he said the current location of my dish can’t see the 129 signal – my neighbor’s garage is in the way. (According to dishpointer,com – he’s right!) My dish is attached to the foundation of my house, at ground level at the back corner of our house. The installer said the only thing to do is to move it up, about half way up the side of the house - or on the roof. I suggested keeping it a ground level, but moving towards the front of the house (and away from the neighbor’s garage) into a landscaped area, about 8 feet from the house. He said he couldn’t do that because they didn’t like to bury the cables. It was already 8:00 PM by the time he had gotten there anyway and I said I had to talk to my wife about it - so we postponed.

I believe that spot I identified should allow for a clear shot at all three satellites – but it will require a pole mount of the dish – and of course - burying the cables! I called Dish back and they assured me that this would all be fine – that they will specify that this is a pole mount install and that the new installer (someone other than the one who came the first time) will do everything they need to do to get it done right, etc. etc. etc.

The rep on the phone made it all sound too easy. I am scheduled for installation this Thursday (2/7) and I have some questions that perhaps people here could help me with.

1. Assuming the installer is going to dig a hole 18-24 inches deep – don't we need to contact the utility companies to know where the gas, electric, phone, and water lines are? Seems like that will take a few days – just for that!

2. I assume this is a multi-day operation to dig, pour the cement, bury the cables, then install the Dish at a later date – once the cement is dry, right? Again the rep on the phone said it would all be taken care of.

3. Should the cables be put in conduit for burial? I assume this makes life easier down the road if we need to add any cables later – but would this be a typical install?

4. And finally - I live in suburban Chicago!! There are currently 4 inches of snow on the ground and 3-6 more coming tonight! Is this even feasible this time of year?

I’m not trying to get something for nothing. I am willing to pay additional for a proper installation – in my preferred location. It’s difficult when you can’t talk to the people doing the install - until they actually come to install it!

I really prefer to keep the dish at ground level. In fact, if I have to, I’d consider going to Direct rather than put a dish on the roof since they don’t use 129. However, my preference is to stay with Dish.

Sorry for the long-winded description, but am I headed for trouble here?

Ray Smith
Batavia, Illinois

A word about utility locates. Most good etchs know where not to do and if there's a doubt, how to dig....Now I don't know about Illinois but here in NC Power must be four feet below original grade. Gas must be three feet below original grade as does water/sewer. The highest risk is to cable or telco service lines. These may be aerial in your area.
Most states have a "one call" service to locate buried utilities. In NC, onnce the call is made, the locating company 48 hrs to do the locate. In SC it's 72 hrs..Depends upon your state...Now, if any of your utilities are city owned, one call WILL NOT locate these..You must call your city dept of public utilities to get locates performed.
If you have any utilities in the ground "past the meter", one call wil not locate these either without payment of a fee.
Examples of past the meter would be a water line to a goldfish pond or a lawn irrigation system. Also a gas line from your main structure to a permanaently mounted gas grill. Or an electrical line that feeds a shed or other out building..

 

[rcdallas]

It all comes down to who comes to install it.

811 is the national miss dig number. They came out with that about 9-10 months ago.