Yet another "Should I switch?" thread

[rad]

IMHO I wouldn't count on OTA support continuing even on the HR54, as others have mentioned get another STB for that if necessary. And remember that the AM21 uses a database from DIRECTV to determine what channels/sub channels you can receive so even if you get one you might not get the channel(s) you want.

 

[az99]

I was reading this thread as I am in the same boat wanting to dump Dish but not sure the wife can live with only 5 tuners.
I have a very slightly used AM21 if anyone is interested.

 

[goaliebob99]

The AM21 is sloooowly becoming unsupported with the HS17 Genie 2 totally ignoring it, so basically say no OTA support with DIRECTV.
.

OTA on DirecTV is not totally dead yet. Making a dongle for the HS17 wouldnt be hard to do, and it would benifit ATT to do so for the simple fact that it would be needed during retrans disputes. I know I would have one to integrate sub channels in with the guide. If they can make it small enough where it costs 50 bucks or less, then I think it will be more widely adapted. ATSC dongles can be had for 30 bucks on ebay. Writing the software backend for it would be the harder part but not impossible. I do think we will see a return of an updated OTA USB stick for the HS17, but it will be realisitically a few years before it happens.

 

[rad]

OTA on DirecTV is not totally dead yet. Making a dongle for the HS17 wouldnt be hard to do, and it would benifit ATT to do so for the simple fact that it would be needed during retrans disputes. I know I would have one to integrate sub channels in with the guide. If they can make it small enough where it costs 50 bucks or less, then I think it will be more widely adapted. ATSC dongles can be had for 30 bucks on ebay. Writing the software backend for it would be the harder part but not impossible. I do think we will see a return of an updated OTA USB stick for the HS17, but it will be realisitically a few years before it happens.

Not disagreeing with your thoughts but since DIRECTV didn't bother to even include the drivers in the HS17 for the existing AM21's why do you think they'd spend the $'s to come up with new hardware and software to support a new solution. Plus unless they redesign the APG to allow for inclusion of all the sub channels that have sprung up the AM21 is totally useless for being able to access them. I just don't see them doing anything in the future to support OTA on their hardware based on what they've done so far.

 

[goaliebob99]

Not disagreeing with your thoughts but since DIRECTV didn't bother to even include the drivers in the HS17 for the existing AM21's why do you think they'd spend the $'s to come up with new hardware and software to support a new solution. Plus unless they redesign the APG to allow for inclusion of all the sub channels that have sprung up the AM21 is totally useless for being able to access them. I just don't see them doing anything in the future to support OTA on their hardware based on what they've done so far.

Why? Retrans agreements. It's rumored that a redesign is happening, so why not include that. A simple way to integrate is to use PSIP data. I dont think it would be hard to design the APG to add sub channels based upon the tables the programming providers already provide. The reason why the AM21 got outdated was because the database behind it was no longer maintained. If they take the data directly from the provider, then they dont have to worry about it.

 

[rad]

Why? Retrans agreements. It's rumored that a redesign is happening, so why not include that. A simple way to integrate is to use PSIP data. I dont think it would be hard to design the APG to add sub channels based upon the tables the programming providers already provide. The reason why the AM21 got outdated was because the database behind it was no longer maintained. If they take the data directly from the provider, then they dont have to worry about it.

Let's forget about the costs for coming up with new hardware and software changes for the moment. What has DIRECTV done in the past, implement changes that reduce their support costs for both truck rolls and call center. If they had OTA support then that's extra time the onsite tech has to take to get the hardware installed and configured for the customer. Then ongoing you have customers calling in for problems with OTA support if something happens with their antenna or lets say the stations changes channel assignement and now the customer can't receive them, DIRECTV doesn't want those calls it costs them money. Then there's your PSIP solution. Now you're counting on the local station to actually have an accurate PSIP stream and it goes out only a couple days. So now you have customers calling in asking why I can't setup a recording for channel 24-3 that's next week?

Remember, DIRECTV went with a unified UI design so that basically the customer saw the same UI no matter which STB they had, why, to reduce support costs.

If DIRECTV really wanted OTA support then why pull the software for it from the HS17? They already had a driver for it available and the base software was already there since the HS17's software was based on the GENIE 1 code?

 

[goaliebob99]

It's a simple solution to allow an antenna just plug into the usb port. They already have OTA support with the AM21 and it doesn’t cost them anywhere your thinking in regards for OTA support. If it was that much of an issue, we would have heard all about it when the AM21 was supported. Also, if they are calling due to PSIP issues, customers can easily be redirected to the stations. It's not that big of a deal as you make it out to be. Even if they went the internal database route again, it's not that much of a issue. As to why pull the software for the HS17, they have to draw a line between old and new. If they are redesigning for a new APG, and the HS17 is apart of the new design to come then it makes sense for them to not support the old hardware when new stuff is coming. Also, tuner limits on the HS17 could have something to do with it, along with how much horsepower is needed to run multiple tuners. A redesign to a usb dongle that draws less power and bandwidth could be needed whereas the AM21 maybe had too much to run with 15 tuners. I’m willing to bet it's a technical issue as to why the AM21 was not included as well as an astatic one of having a large box next to the HS17.

 

[rad]

It's a simple solution to allow an antenna just plug into the usb port. They already have OTA support with the AM21 and it doesn’t cost them anywhere your thinking in regards for OTA support. If it was that much of an issue, we would have heard all about it when the AM21 was supported. Also, if they are calling due to PSIP issues, customers can easily be redirected to the stations. It's not that big of a deal as you make it out to be. Even if they went the internal database route again, it's not that much of a issue. As to why pull the software for the HS17, they have to draw a line between old and new. If they are redesigning for a new APG, and the HS17 is apart of the new design to come then it makes sense for them to not support the old hardware when new stuff is coming. Also, tuner limits on the HS17 could have something to do with it, along with how much horsepower is needed to run multiple tuners. A redesign to a usb dongle that draws less power and bandwidth could be needed whereas the AM21 maybe had too much to run with 15 tuners. I’m willing to bet it's a technical issue as to why the AM21 was not included as well as an astatic one of having a large box next to the HS17.

Hey, I'd love to see them put OTA support back in the HS17 and fix the APG to allow for all the sub channels. But IMHO I don't see it happening, guess we'll just have to wait and see who's magic 8 ball works better.

 

[tspangle]

I don't have any experience with DirecTV (yet), but based on my experience with Dish, Comcast, Verizon, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Motorola, HTC, Samsung..... essentially every tech company ever, once they remove a feature, it's pretty rare for them to put it back, even if there is a significant number of their customers who still want it.

 

[navychop]

I don't think it's in AT&T to support OTA.

 

[jerryez]

You can get a TiVo Roamio OTA that includes the guide data for all the sub channels. I have thought about these great offers for bundling ATT internet and Direct. It would cost me $80 for the bundle and I am paying Cox $78 per month for internet only, plus my Dish cost. So, I could keep Dish and get Direct TV and ATT internet for $2 per month for 2 years. If you record a lot, if you leave Dish you lose all your recordings, which would be a concern for me.

 

[az99]

As much as I would like to save a few bucks by going back to DTV, it is really difficult to go back after you have had the Primetime feature of recording all the networks on 1 tuner everyday and having 15 tuners left to record other shows with the Hopper 3. How I would like to save $ is via ala carte and get rid of 235 channels in my 250 pack.

 

[Jimbo]

As much as I would like to save a few bucks by going back to DTV, it is really difficult to go back after you have had the Primetime feature of recording all the networks on 1 tuner everyday and having 15 tuners left to record other shows with the Hopper 3. How I would like to save $ is via ala carte and get rid of 235 channels in my 250 pack.

Good luck with that ... once you go Ala Carte, you'll find yourself spending way more money ...

 

[rapidturtle]

I've had D* for about 5 years now, and with the 5 tuners, haven't had one recording conflict. We were a family of four, (now only 2, empty nesters) but even when the two kids were home, we just never ran into a conflict.

 

[ncted]

I've had D* for about 5 years now, and with the 5 tuners, haven't had one recording conflict. We were a family of four, (now only 2, empty nesters) but even when the two kids were home, we just never ran into a conflict.

I think the way DirecTV handles the overlap between shows recorded back-to-back can really help. From what I understand, it only uses 1 tuner instead of the 2 that Dish and other DVRs use. Both recordings end up with the extra minute or two added at each end of the recording without burning a second tuner for those overlapping minutes. Of course, if you do not record shows back-to-back like that, it isn't going to help much.

 

[camo]

I've had D* for about 5 years now, and with the 5 tuners, haven't had one recording conflict. We were a family of four, (now only 2, empty nesters) but even when the two kids were home, we just never ran into a conflict.

My experience with 16 tuners viewing habits have changed considerably by utilizing the tuners we rarely watch live TV other than maybe some sporting event. Even the news gets recorded now.
When I turn TV on now I go directly to DVR recordings for viewing. This does take a little getting used to but after awhile comes naturally. Setting series recordings and keeping max of 1 or 2 events 8-10 turners are busy all the time. I don't watch 3/4 of what I record but it's there if I want to without commercials.

 

[az99]

I think the way DirecTV handles the overlap between shows recorded back-to-back can really help. From what I understand, it only uses 1 tuner instead of the 2 that Dish and other DVRs use. Both recordings end up with the extra minute or two added at each end of the recording without burning a second tuner for those overlapping minutes. Of course, if you do not record shows back-to-back like that, it isn't going to help much.

Could you please give a more detailed explanation of how it does that without using an extra tuner? Only having 5 tuners is the only thing keeping me away from DTV. Thanx

 

[az99]

My experience with 16 tuners viewing habits have changed considerably by utilizing the tuners we rarely watch live TV other than maybe some sporting event. Even the news gets recorded now.
When I turn TV on now I go directly to DVR recordings for viewing. This does take a little getting used to but after awhile comes naturally. Setting series recordings and keeping max of 1 or 2 events 8-10 turners are busy all the time. I don't watch 3/4 of what I record but it's there if I want to without commercials.

That is how my wife uses ours too. I absolutely refuse to watch commercials when I am already paying for the programming. Even live sports we record and just stay behind real time.

 

[rad]

So far the two of us haven't had any issue with missed recordings due to tuner conflicts with 87 series links. We always set them up with any local channels getting top priority since if there is a conflict the box will defer a cable channel with a west coast feed and record that later showing. With the 7 tuners in the HS17 I haven't ran into that issue anymore.

 

[ncted]

Could you please give a more detailed explanation of how it does that without using an extra tuner? Only having 5 tuners is the only thing keeping me away from DTV. Thanx

Sure. Disclaimer here: I am no expert on the inner workings of DirecTV's DVR software. I have just read a lot on the internet, so please do not take my word as gospel. This may be a total misunderstanding on my part, but I have seem multiple people claim this is how it works with few if any arguing against it. If I am wrong about any of this, please let me know.

Most DVRs, including Tivos and maybe Dish's, handle the padding or buffer that is added to the beginning or ending of recordings which take place on the same channel in adjacent time-slots by recording the same channel on another tuner for the duration of the overlap. For those few minutes, the DVR is using 2 tuners to record the same channel, thereby tying up those tuners for a short, but significant amount of time which may cause conflicts if you want to record more things at that time than there are tuners available to handle the demand, even though the total number of recordings you want to start or end at a given hour is less than the total number of tuners available.

DirecTV DVRs handle the padding by recording both shows on the same tuner, and somehow making sure the overlap ends up on both recordings. BEHOLD my seriously simplified diagram to try to illustrate the point:

FWIW: Dish's PTAT recording works kind of like DirecTV's from what I could tell when I had it, although with recording 4 streams at once, it is probably more complicated than that. Also, I think Dish will just truncate the recordings at the hour if you use the standard padding values. This can create situations where you go to watch a show you recorded months earlier and the beginning or ending are missing unexpectedly, and the adjacent show which caused this to happen is no longer on your DVR. Of course, with 16 tuners on the Hopper3, this should be less of an issue in theory.

Also of note is DirecTV now offering the HS17 with 7 tuners, and you could also add HR24s to the HR54 Genie to get more tuners that way. I hope that helped more than confused.