XstreamHD Needs Your Input!

[ksbuie]

I know one person that has a krell system setup for 8 channel analog audio. He was not as concerned about the inputs for his movies as he was at having the analog system for his vinyl. To me analog systems are for protecting the integrity of the analog signal. If the signal is ever digitized then why convert it back?

 

[John Kotches]

Hey guys, I just talked with some of my contacts over at XstreamHD and as their product gears toward beta, they need your input! They received some feedback from some High End Customers that would like an external box, that is a sorta like a set top box that delivers 8 channel audio through analogue outputs.

Ok.

This would be able to pass various lossy audio code-cs and give full 8 channel audio output. Would this be something that as an Audiophile you would be interested in? Obviously, the pricing on this box would be more. The concern was that HDMI wouldn't be able to pass the full 8 channel stream. This would be in conjunction with other audio outputs like SPDIF and HDMI

What do you mean "The concern was that HDMI wouldn't be able to pass the full 8 channel stream" ?

HDMI 1.3 (and they should be using HDMI) can pass 8-channels of PCM or all bitstream codecs (without decoding).

So unless they're going with HDMI 1.1 (and why would they?) there would be no need for concern with HDMIs ability to pass content.

What do you guys think? And how can they improve the product to help you get the most out of your audio system. Would this be something that you would be intrested in?

Don't ask me about getting the most from my audio system. I have an extremely high-end system and I'm not sure they want to know what I want; it would raise the price considerably

 

[John Kotches]

Mike It does, but I think the idea is to send the audio uncompressed. Where as 1.3b sends the audio compressed.

Either you don't know the specs for audio over HDMI, or they don't know the specs for audio over HDMI.

1.0 PCM up to 8 channels @ 24/192K + Bitstream DD + DTS

1.1 Added DVD-Audio formally to the spec; although its output requirements fit within the 1.0 footprint.

1.2 Add DSD (SA-CD up to 8 channels)

1.3, 1.3a and 1.3b have the option of sending whatever is desired across the wire. Raw bitstreams (DD, DD+, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio) or decoded PCM streams.

 

[John Kotches]

If they are concerned that someone will be able to tell the difference between lossless and bitstream decoded buy a reciever this is way to upscale for me. Can you even tell the difference?

What do you mean by bitstream, Lossy DD/DTS vs. lossless? Yes, even on my secondary system it's noticable.

OTOH, if you mean lossless (ie TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio) then by their very nature it should be irrelevant where the decode is done. Lossless means bits into encoder == bits out of the decoder. Anything else isn't lossless.

 

[goaliebob99]

John, I'm glad you showed up! I didn't really know the exact specs on HDMI audio. I knew that 1.3 could do it, but I thought it was compressed. So what your saying is that HDMI is fine and can send the audio uncompressed. Right?

What about someone who doesn't have an HDMI slot? How would they take advantage of lossless audio then? would SPDIF work as far as Full 8 channel audio? OR is it limited as far as bitrate that can go through the fiber optic. I never really payed attention to this, as long as my reciver was putting out dobly true HD or DTSHD I figured it was good.

 

[iceturkee]

I like having both options. It doesn't force someone to buy a new reciever.

i kinda agree here. my thinking is why not appease the true audiophile but understand they represent a small percentage of people utilizing your product!

 

[bradb007]

Average Joe here, using HDMI and 7.1 system

 

[VinceT3]

I still remember one day reading the fantasy that we'd all have a single daisy chained firewire to each box, and everything would "just work."

Hey! I have firewire on my TV & Stereo, works sooooo good but not many items have it, I know it worked with some hd vcr's & dvd players..

 

[bjdraw]

Having both is nice and is getting to be expected on high end Blu-ray players.

The current Samsung BD-UP5000 has 7.1 discrete analog outputs as does the just announced Sony BD-Sp550.

Obviously HDMI is easier for both bitstream and LCPM, but some have older AVR/amps that are perfectly fine with the exception of the lack of DTS-HD/TrueHD support.

 

[Eric_C]

Yes...and no....I use 8 channel analog outs with my DVD-A and SACD player through a Outlaw ICBM for analog bass management.

So honestly unless they had pass throughs I doubt I would personally use it since its more for DVD-A/SACD.

Even though my player will not pass through hires via HDMI there are units out there that will. My PS3 plays SACD via HDMI in hires but IMO it sounds poor compared to the analog setup I have because of my bass manager.

If they allowed digital bass management then there would be no need for analog outs.

 

[navychop]

Hey! I have firewire on my TV & Stereo, works sooooo good but not many items have it, I know it worked with some hd vcr's & dvd players..

Lucky bas....



This Xstream box seems to me to offer a way to output 8 channels to a receiver via analog inputs- presumably to a receiver that does not have HDMI (or they don't support 1.3). This would appeal to an audiophile- who likely has the latest and greatest HDMI capable receiver.

If the Xstream box does not support HDMI 1.3, their efforts would be better spent making it 1.3. If it supports 1.3, their target audience must be quite small for this box and surely there is better bang for their buck elsewhere.

 

[denisincalif]

HDMI vs Analog

Mike It does, but I think the idea is to send the audio uncompressed. Where as 1.3b sends the audio compressed.

I agree with several previous posters that HDMI is all that is needed. I also do not fully understand the discussion so far.

To me, the goal is to make sure that any known audio codec can be played at full fidelity by the user on his/her home system. Also, the user should be able to take full advantage of all the video information in the source material if his/her system can handle it.

The audio problem can be solved in a whole lot of ways. One way (not optimal) would be for XStream to decompress the best quality audio available in the source material before downloading and send down uncompressed PCM. In this scenario even HDMI 1.1 works, since it will transfer any uncompressed audio. Another possibility would be to send down all audio available in the source material and let the user decide which to use. In that case the user's home theater equipment will have to handle any necessary decompression. That will require HDMI 1.3 because only 1.3 can handle compressed TrueHD and DTS MA.

In view of such coming video attractions as DeepColor, I vote for a full-up HDMI 1.3 implementation.

I apologize if this has been covered in an XStream FAQ sheet or elsewhere, but what are the HDCP implications for XStream users?

 

[John Kotches]

John, I'm glad you showed up! I didn't really know the exact specs on HDMI audio. I knew that 1.3 could do it, but I thought it was compressed. So what your saying is that HDMI is fine and can send the audio uncompressed. Right?

HDMI 1.3 can send:
PCM decoded codecs
And all of the bitstreams

Compressed is misleading... Dolby TrueHD is compressed, Dolby Digital is compresses. The former is lossless, the latter is lossy.

1.3 is fine, as it gives all the digital audio output options.

What about someone who doesn't have an HDMI slot? How would they take advantage of lossless audio then?

Only with analog outputs.

would SPDIF work as far as Full 8 channel audio? OR is it limited as far as bitrate that can go through the fiber optic. I never really payed attention to this, as long as my reciver was putting out dobly true HD or DTSHD I figured it was good.

DD+ is the closest you could get to "Full 8 channel Audio". It's still lossy compression, but better than Dolby Digital.

However, technically speaking DD+ isn't officially supported over S/PDIF. It fits within the bandwidth constraints easily though.

Cheers,

 

[goaliebob99]

Thanks John

 

[navychop]

That will require HDMI 1.3 because only 1.3 can handle compressed TrueHD and DTS MA.

These are lossless formats.

 

[John Kotches]

These are lossless formats.

Yes, they are. But HDMI 1.3 is the only one spec'd to carry the bitstreams.

 

[ORBNC]

IMO, the more connectivity the better. This product will be initially adopted by high-end consumers requiring the "latest & greatest" connectivity. The more "mainstream" or middle to low end consumer will require fiber or digital coax to connect to older systems. You also have the consumer who is not concered with audio and is more concered with video. Analog will be required by them. I've sold lots of expensive panels to consumers who are happy with the speakers on the tv.

 

[williamkmurphy]

This is what I would like to see for audio connections\decode ability

1) Be able to decode all "HD" formats (DD+, DD TrueHD, DTS-MA\HD) to LPCM, minimum of 5.1 channels and output over HDMI.

2) Be able to bitstream the HD formats in their native format, no decoding to PCM in the box, let the A\V receiver do it.

3) 5.1\7.1 analog outs.

4) optical for older receivers that don't have HDMI, when people still want a digital connection.


Basically do what Toshiba did, and get support for the DTS formats.


Item #1 is the most important to me. I have a Yamaha RXV-2600, its hdmi 1.1. So I can't decode new formats, but I can accept PCM over HDMI (what I do now for HD-DVD). Obviously its also limited to 1080i, but I have a 720p display so not an issue currently.

Any way to get in the beta program?

 

[John Kotches]

This is what I would like to see for audio connections\decode ability

1) Be able to decode all "HD" formats (DD+, DD TrueHD, DTS-MA\HD) to LPCM, minimum of 5.1 channels and output over HDMI.

This is actually the best performance path.

2) Be able to bitstream the HD formats in their native format, no decoding to PCM in the box, let the A\V receiver do it.

If they use HDMI 1.3; this becomes a function of the software.

3) 5.1\7.1 analog outs.

This adds some to the cost; not big $$$ unless they go way high end, but it could tack another $100+ on for good quality.

4) optical for older receivers that don't have HDMI, when people still want a digital connection.

Coaxial digital as well. However it is likely that the initial market will be HDMI capable.

Basically do what Toshiba did, and get support for the DTS formats.

Drop out of the race?

Item #1 is the most important to me. I have a Yamaha RXV-2600, its hdmi 1.1. So I can't decode new formats, but I can accept PCM over HDMI (what I do now for HD-DVD). Obviously its also limited to 1080i, but I have a 720p display so not an issue currently.

That's not a bad setup.

Any way to get in the beta program?

I don't know.

 

[techweb]

I don't think analog outputs are necessary since everything's moving towards HDMI. There are even budget A/V receivers coming out that will decode the advanced audio codecs (for example Sony STR-DG820). I'm sure that most people interested in XStreamHD will have better A/V equipment than that.

I assume from their preliminary spec sheet that the transport stream downlinked from satellite will be encoded in DTS-HD Master Audio format. Maybe they could decode to 7.1 channel PCM via HDMI for people who bought A/V receivers in the past couple years.