X2 premium

[T134]

I think most of us here have no clue what receivers are in compliance with licensing and patent laws and which are not, just like a lot of people buy clones with no idea it is a clone. If you go to Walmart and buy a hdtv you assume it is legal and not off a truck. Amazon, which most X2’s are sold at, are the Walmart of online shopping. X2’s are warehoused and shipped by Amazon fulfillment.

According to your post Linkbox receivers are illegal, yet there are reputable dealers selling them.

Part of the blame for stolen technology has to go to the distributors. They take there product to questionable Chinese manufactures so the can have it made for $17 then they may or may not pay licensing ( not sure how we would know) and sell it here for $300. Then their oem knocks it off and sells it for half the price and we have no clue its not the original. Distributors need to vet there manufacturers better or better yet have them made in the USA where manufacturers have some ethics.

Please note I am not trying to talk bad about any distributors serving the north american market. I do appreciate folks like Titanium that are working to provide new and innovative products for the North American market. Just pointing out that it is unrealistic to expect the average consumer to know when a product is or is not legally licensed or if the technology was stolen when they purchase them thru legitimate sources (not off a truck).

You bring up several legitimate points. However I would think the average True FTA consumer, being intelligent enough to pick out a linear LNBF, motor/actuator and align his/her BUD to the arc might have the ability to pick out the obvious. In North America this is a specialty, craft market. You aren't buying the best looking and priced Samsung you see at Walmart or Best Buy.

The first thing I would look at is if it is dirt cheap. Alone that does not mean illegal but personally I wonder about any product that is priced very low and promises anything. That applies to anything, not just FTA.

With some of these so called FTA products I'd look closely at the offerings. If it comes with an ATSC module yet there is a JS400 or LS300 or whatever T8PSK module available for it.....not legal. The factory code on the box is illegal since it contains what is needed to run the illegal T8psk modules. The ATSC is the thinly veiled cover. In pirate quantities maybe they could afford to develop an ATSC board for their application but no one does it for the True FTA numbers. Ask Hugo @ Azbox (if you can find him) or Rick how a legitimate, legal, licensed ATSC tuner went over here. You guys need to remember the world runs on DVB-T/T2. America looks like a bank market to do ATSC with until the manufacturers realize that the number of buyers of FTA receivers for True FTA use is a XXXX or XXXXX in a good year number.

The only people funding a removable ATSC tuner are the same ones that happen to have the LS400 or whatever Turbo 8psk module that happens to work with the factory firmware. Seems they don't get real 8psk, only the proprietary Turbo 8psk using the Broadcom chip owned by Echostar.

Personally I'd also look at the track record of some of these so-called reputable dealers. Before the current generation were they offering crap like K-box, Nfusion and Sonicview with the "weather forecaster" (or was that viewshit) ???

In all fairness I have to admit that I brought in tons of Openbox. At the time I was assured they were licensed for everything, and at the time we didn't have any alternative here for a low or medium cost S2 box. We also had North American True FTA support and non-pirate firmware, at least for awhile until the dish pirates outnumbered True FTA.

Since then much has changed. We brought 8240 over as the first modern True FTA box in NA. If you want to look at FCC testing, we had it done at Northwestern who has a lab here in MN.

http://www.fridgefta.info/forums/showthread.php?tid=28432

Those purdy lab pictures cost me $1675. Amiko and I compared prices and could have had it done a bit cheaper in China but we both wanted something for North America that was hands on and 30 miles away from me where I could deal with any issues. Since doing 8240 we just have everything done when they do the much more strict CE stuff. I get a lab report for each model, but not necessary as purdy of pics. Brian can attest to how that works in CN.

I didn't mean to do a turd and self promote, actually 8240 is not available in NA right now. 8240 was shortly followed up by Satellite AV releasing the Micro HD. Those guys put a ton more work into their product and built it at much more expense for North America. Tim @ DMS also introduced his Traxis S2 solution around the same time but in all honesty I am not a fan of it.

Rick has had the AZ since before I can remember. I don't know about the older models but the REAL HD+ from him are FCC certified (not just conforming like most of us) and have UL and other crud.

I think the point I am trying to make is there are several legal, True FTA options available.

As far as your point about "distributors" having responsibility here, I agree. The problem here is maybe that there are not enough actual "distributors". There are a dozen a**clowns bringing in a dozen pieces. There is X2 bringing in a dozen shipments of a dozen pieces a week. Brian really hit much of this right on the head.

A real "dealer" or "distributor" might actually vett the product and the source. "Oh wow, there is 129W which is all T8psk in your satellite list. Oh wow, I can get this magic module that replaces the ATSC tuner and it suddenly pirates Dish Network, not even a file change needed."

Or with X2tool...."wow direct support for Dish Network, can we strip this for North America?"

Unless your dealer is a total X2ool he knows exactly what he is selling and he knows exactly who his buyers are.

Again not to self promote but I'll give you guys 4;2:2, netflix and anything else you could want in 3 boxes all in one. Everyone into real True FTA will buy it. Total North American sales for such hypothetical unit: less than 0.1% of X2tool fools.

 

[cyberham]

If the illegal product is so obviously illegal, I don't undetstand why a simple call to the FBI wouldn't take care of the importers. If that can't be done, then you're attacking the problem wrong. It seems the process needs fixing and this broken system is the real culprit.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I had a meeting at CES about this and was told they are aware and putting together their case.

I was told they need to collect everything then make sure all the i's are dotted and T's are crossed before they can do anything.

I was told it can take a year or two before they get everything together and rake action.

I was also told that a lot of times they work putting everything together the company goes away before they have a chance to take action.

One good part about the X2 is that it was sold via Amazon so there is more of a paper trail here then normal theft boxes. This should make it easier for them to cease assists once the time comes.

The process codes not happen as fast as they would like but it's the process they have to work with.


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[xtgold]

true fta doesn't need support,it should work right out of the box.
If it doesn't,the customer is being used as a beta tester.
I would rather pay $54 for a $17 china box than $150 for a $17 china box.

 

[Titanium]

So the bottom line is that the cheap product price is more important than knowing that the technology that enables every basic function is stolen?
Decoding MPEG signals - license
HDMI output - license
Dolby decoding - license
USB - license

What function does a current model TRUE FTA STB have without these technologies?

What value does a current model TRUE FTA STB have to the manufacturer, distributor or buyer without these technologies?

 

[rv1pop]

Let me throw a completely off topic sounding scenario into the mix. You buy a beautiful $300,000 home in a nice area for $3,000. You get settled in and a year later - in the middle of an ice storm - some D9 come along and flattens your house (you are inside) in the middle of the night. You find out you got a house with NO property on a coal mine site . . . . . . .
OK, buy your Illegal STB .... Owner of the PROPERTY goes to court and wins back the property -- and gets possession of your home as damages... YES it can happen. Is this really Off Topic, or is it future cast?

 

[. Raine]

The average person wouldn't know a device has stolen technologies inside it, especially when it's bought from a legit place such as Amazon. To put the onus of this on end customers as some people seem to want to do is a very unrealistic and retarded point of view IMHO. I myself would have no idea of all the controversy over the X2 if I hadn't of joined this great site.

And even with all the talk about it, I've never seen anyone offer a link, place to call, or anything to verify these claims of stolen technologies, or help stop it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the X2. I'm waiting for spring after my light bill isn't through the roof with my electric heat and then it's being replaced with a Micro HD because the firmware is enough to convince me. But, it's lucky that an average person even knows what some of these technologies are, never mind whether they are used legally or not. It's not like you can look at the box and tell, a USB port looks like a USB port and doesn't tell you whether it's illegal or not. The only thing I could tell was illegal is in the firmware and I've worked all of my life repairing consumer electronics. And even that, I didn't know what it was until I'd looked it up. To someone designing and building these things and working with FTA a long time maybe it's obvious, to everyone else, not always so.

I spent about $250 setting up my first FTA dish last June and was totally ignorant about all things FTA, I'd never done anything with satellite stuff before and wasn't yet a member here. Add another $200 to that for a good receiver and that would be about $400 for something that I didn't know for sure would work, wasn't sure I could even set up, or was even worth doing. That's why I went for cheap, there was a very good possibility that I was just throwing money away on the venture. At that time on Amazon, the X2 had only three sales, all saying a decent FTA receiver, and nothing to suggest anything wrong with it. My review of it is the fourth one down under the name Raine.

I guess the only points that I'm trying to make is that not everyone buys these things planning to steal and complaining about it without offering any solutions or even ways to check the claims is kinda useless. Scott's post is the only one really productive in this sense.

A few years back on Amazon, I bought a XP Media Center 2005 disc for $20 that was supposed to be an original OEM and sealed in the package. When I got it, it was a burned copy with a pretty decent looking label on it, sealed in a package. I was upset, to say the least, and I contacted Amazon. They had me send it back, refunded my money plus shipping and within 24 hours everything that vendor had for sale was taken off of Amazon. That disc I knew was fake and I could prove it, I did something about it. The X2 and it's technologies, I have no idea of what's truly fake or not.

As frustrating as things like this are, the burden is really on the shoulders of the people who know and can prove the X2 licensing issues, they are the ones who have to act on it and they have to do more than just complain about it.

 

[anik]

I guess that if/when I buy a receiver, there are three things that are the top criteria for me:

1. The price. Sorry, but if your device costs four or five times what a competitor's product costs, I'm not gonna buy it. Period. And honestly, even if it's only $1 more than a competitors product, yours had better offer some extra functionality that's worth that extra $1.
2. Does it have the features I want? No, you can't sell me your gold-plated, 100% legit receiver if it doesn't offer decent blind scan, just to name a feature most people want. I have some specific things I am looking for (no not pirate stuff) but I won't go into that here.
3. It is available from someone that hasn't insulted me or disrespected me on a forum such as this one? There are certain people I would not buy from if they were the last dealers on earth. Actually, just saying "Is it available?" is sometimes an issue, because there have been a couple of instances where I was almost convinced to buy a certain make and model of receiver, only to find that they were apparently no longer available at any U.S. dealer.

Though not on the list, I would really tend to shy away from something considered to be a pirate box UNLESS it could be used as a straight-up FTA receiver and worked well in that regard. The thing I read about most of the pirate boxes is that they don't do well as normal FTA receivers, since they are designed with one type of use in mind, and that's not what I am looking for. So I tend to cross those off my list right away.

NOT on my list is any concern about whether the receiver has complied with all the legalities. I figure that if they can convince a reputable dealer to sell their product than any responsibility for not complying with the legalities is on the manufacturer and the distributors, not on the end user.

I have not purchased an X2 but ONLY because it does not have some specific functionality that I am looking for. But I have been VERY tempted, especially after seeing a couple videos demoing how fast and accurate the blind scan is on those things. Are there any fully legal receivers sold at anywhere near that price that can do blind scan as well, or bring in the hard-to-get signals as well? I should note that the videos I saw had NO mention of these receivers having non-legitimate uses, and did not demonstrate them receiving anything other than true FTA signals.

To me all this talk of legal B.S. is partly sour grapes from dealers of more expensive equipment that wish they could get their hands on a receiver as good as that one and sell it for the price it's being sold for, and still make a tidy profit. Since they can't do that they are grasping at any straw they can find to stop the sale of those receivers, or to discourage people from buying them. Well, from the customer's point of view that comes across looking like a greedy small town store owner that wants to drive all the chain stores and big box stores out of town because he's unwilling to compete on price, or carry the items that customers really want.

It would not surprise me if some of the off-brand (and in a few cases, well known brand name) electronics sold at big discount stores have licensing issues, but should those devices ever get pulled from the shelves the customers that have already bought them are going to be happy they got in on the deal in time, and those that were just about to buy are probably going to be p.o.'ed at whatever company brought the action that got those devices pulled (this assumes that it was a desirable device to begin with). Already, knowledgeable consumers in the U.S. get ticked off when we can't get products here that are available in other countries, due to licensing issues. Of course, rich people can make trips to Japan or China and buy whatever they want, but the rest of us don't have that luxury.

What upsets me is that so much of the available FTA satellite equipment is about ten years behind where it ought to be on the technology curve. So all of a sudden a box comes along that is arguably better than anything out there with regard to one specific feature that is important to users (blind scan) and what is the response of certain others in the industry? To talk about trying to kill it, or at least make it unavailable, or failing that, to discourage potential customers from buying it. The response instead should be, "We need to bring our products into the 21st century, and at least offer technology equal to what they are offering, or preferably better!" I do realize in saying that, that some distributors will say they have no control over what the manufacturers do because the U.S. is such a small market and it's Europe that drives the market for FTA equipment. I wish I could be sympathetic to that, but in the end I'm probably like most consumers and I'm going to spend my money where I get the best bang for my buck. If blind scan were the most important feature to me, I'd have bought an X2 already, but there are other features that are more important right now and I am just waiting for someone to come along with a receiver that will do what I want at a price point that's not totally ridiculous. And when the day comes that I finally see such a thing, hopefully sooner than ten years from now, I don't even want to know whether it has "stolen" technology in it, because "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

 

[anik]

At that time on Amazon, the X2 had only three sales, all saying a decent FTA receiver, and nothing to suggest anything wrong with it. My review of it is the fourth one down under the name Raine.

And I'll bet it's worked pretty well for you as an FTA receiver, judging from the various reviews I've seen on Amazon and in a couple of YouTube videos I watched. It seems like it's only certain dealers that are complaining about the X2 and trying to stop people from buying them by claiming they include illegal technology and that they are used for piracy, yet nothing I have seen outside of this forum has suggested anything like that. I'm not saying they are lying (I would certainly hope no one would make up accusations such as that) but I am saying that in this particular case it sounds like they are more interested in protecting their profits than in doing the right thing for the customer. And in this case, doing the right thing would be offering a receiver with all the good points of the X2 (which, judging from the videos I saw, would mean fast and accurate blind scan, and the ability to pull in marginal signals that other receivers wont) at a nearly equivalent price, or with enough added functionality to justify a significantly higher price.

Now as I said in my other post, I don't have an X2 myself, so I admit that the demonstrations in the videos could have been staged or something. But assuming they weren't, those videos were pretty impressive demos, especially of the blind scan feature.

 

[Keith Brannen]

anik, I guess the phrase "level playing field" is not part of your vocabulary. Certification/licensing costs money, as Brian and Joe have pointed out in this thread. Yet you would reward the company that doesn't pay those legitmate costs, or expect Brian and Joe and all others to absorb those costs out of their potential profit just so their STB doesn't cost "$1 more". That is pathetic. Anyhow, I have no wish to argue with you, anik, as I know it would just be a time-waster and bashing my head against a brick wall. To Brian, Joe, and all others who try to develop, support, protect against clones and receivers that don't have certification/licensing, etc., you have my sympathy and support against attitudes such as displayed by anik and others.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I will be the first to admit, it was a decent box, I even like that it came with 2 remotes. The issue I had with it was IKS sticking in the middle of the menu in the factory firmware.

As some have pointed out its hard to know what boxes are licensed to use the technology and those who use it without properly licensing it.

We as FTA fans need to stand together and decide what we want, cheap or real boxes made for the US market using licensed technology.

Guys like Joe and Brian work hard to make boxes for us Hobbiest here in the US. There boxes not only take a lot of design time, but money to design the box, to get it tested and to properly license the technology in the box. When cheap boxes like this come along it knocks the wind out of the sails of the companies trying to do it legit. We see people saying all the time buy Amaerican, yet when it comes down to actually doing it people will opt for the cheap knock off over the real thing and that unfortunately is hurting everyone in the end.

Sure you can go to New York City and buy a $100 Rolex off the street, but when you compare it to a real $10,000 rolex you realize your just wearing costume jewelry.

 

[Magic Static]

If it were me, the X2 and it's ilk would have no place in this forum. Just my 2cents.

 

[northgeorgia]

I have a entrepreneur friend who works in a completely different industry. Same thing happened to him after developing a great product from scratch, some folks in China completely stole his patent and mass produced and marketed it under their own brand.

 

[anik]

Guys like Joe and Brian work hard to make boxes for us Hobbiest here in the US. There boxes not only take a lot of design time, but money to design the box, to get it tested and to properly license the technology in the box. When cheap boxes like this come along it knocks the wind out of the sails of the companies trying to do it legit. We see people saying all the time buy Amaerican, yet when it comes down to actually doing it people will opt for the cheap knock off over the real thing and that unfortunately is hurting everyone in the end.

Sure you can go to New York City and buy a $100 Rolex off the street, but when you compare it to a real $10,000 rolex you realize your just wearing costume jewelry.

Let me put it this way: The "buy American" argument has never been persuasive to me. In fact since I was old enough to know the difference (sometime in my 20's) I've bought foreign-made vehicles. Why? Because all Detroit ever gave me was inferior products based on the criteria that mattered most to me, which was good gas mileage, and being able to go well past 100,000 miles without the car turning into a piece of junk or needing costly repairs. Funny thing is that it took far too long, but finally Detroit has started to come to the realization that they had better produce cars of equivalent quality or they are going to lose sales to foreign-made cars. I will also say that the more the U.S. automakers demanded "protection" from the government, or tried to play it as one's "patriotic duty" to buy an American car, the more determined I became to get the car I really wanted. And, just as a side note, I will just say that every time I was persuaded to buy an American car, I almost instantly regretted it, whereas that only happened to me once with a foreign car.

For me it is all about the quality and getting the features I want. The basic appeal here is that I should care where a receiver was made, whether the company that made it was honest or dishonest, how hard the distributors had to work to get the device into the country. And as an aside, do you really think that all the big corporations you do business with day in and day out are totally honest in all their dealings? If you do I have a bridge to sell you... But at the end of the day, after I have spent my money, what's going to matter to me is how well the receiver finds and receives the FTA channels that are up there on the various satellites, and whether it has the features that are important to me. If it doesn't, then any sweetness I might feel about having "done the right thing" (by someone else's standard) would be overshadowed by the constant feeling that "this d--ned thing won't do what I need it to do." That's why I say, IF a receiver were available that had the features I wanted at a reasonable price and was known to work well, I would not care where it came from (as long as it's not the guy I have vowed never to do business with, that is, but then he'd probably never offer such a thing at anywhere near an affordable price to begin with).

You can bemoan my attitudes all you want but let's put it this way, if you ever shop at a big box store rather than a local downtown merchant then you are being a hypocrite to complain about anyone not buying American or supporting smaller dealers. Those in the satellite business are not exempt from the attitudes that drive the American consumer. People talk all the time about how we should buy local or how foreign goods are killing the American economy and yet when something breaks and they need a replacement in a hurry the first place they will go is Walmart or Best Buy. At least I am being totally honest about my attitudes and not trying to come off as some type of "holier-than-thou" person who tries to pretend that I'm just as "moral" as some of you. I am just as "moral" as the typical American consumer - maybe I should say, the typical lower-income consumer - and for me it's about price first, features second, and "doing the right thing" by someone else's standard of morality is way down the list. I DO have my limits; I would not buy a receiver if I knew it was made in a slave labor camp in North Korea, for example. And I have already said that I have zero interest in trying to pirate signals. But I think I am pretty typical of the American consumer, and probably of a lot of people that read this forum but aren't chiming in.

As for that Rolex, it's not really a valid comparison. People buy Rolexes because they are good watches, but mainly to impress other people. I am not impressed at all by such things (in fact I am very turned off by outward ostentatious) but having said that, if you buy a knockoff brand just to impress other people, that's basically lying to everyone. Now if you buy it because it works just as good as, or even better than the real thing (which obviously is not going to be the case of you buy it from some shady character out of the trunk of a car) then I personally would not have a problem with that, although I wouldn't do it because I'd feel very self-conscious about it, not because of any morality issue, but because it would advertise me as being in a social or economic caste where I don't belong. But I don't buy an FTA receiver to impress anybody; most other people have no idea what an FTA receiver is, and if you try to explain it, half of them think you are doing something illegal because they have been conditioned to believe that you can't get free TV anymore - I've even read where some people now think it's illegal to use a regular OTA antenna! And again, I care about price, features, and quality - pretty much in that order, although all of those are important - not whether the company has complied with every single legal requirement that they are supposed to comply with, or whether some dealer has spent a bunch of money to bring in the receiver, because neither of those things are going to enhance my viewing experience.

Sorry if my being honest about these things offends anyone, but I'd rather be honest about how I think and have some people not like me than lie to everyone and not like myself.

P.S. I am sympathetic to the idea that it's not right for a company to basically steal someone else's design and make a direct knockoff, although as a consumer that's not something I'm normally going to know about or care much about. However, in this particular case, it appears that the X2 is an improvement on everything else out there, at least in regard to one important feature, which is blind scanning. And the one thing I have always hated about the current patent system is that it makes it so hard and costly for a company to start with someone else's existing design and make significant improvements. I have often wondered how much human progress has been retarded by our complicated and expensive patent system. The Chinese have never been as concerned about such things (in fact they probably would not be concerned at all were it not for pressure from the U.S. and certain European countries) and that's probably one reason they are becoming such an economic powerhouse.

 

[Vondertrenk]

I never saw it this way but I guess you are 150% right!!!!!

No, not hijacking a thread to discuss any future projects or dream machines. Just want to remind folks about the realities of intellectual properties and licensing.

It is good to support products that license and further R&D product development rather than buy from bottom feeders that steal products and designs, undercutting the real market costs just to put a few bucks in their pockets. It is no different than buying stolen merchandise from a known thief. It really comes down to our own personal values and morals. Unfortunately, in current society this is often excused through the validation of saving a few dollars.

 

[anik]

If it were me, the X2 and it's ilk would have no place in this forum. Just my 2cents.

You do realize that when you censor talk about a particular receiver, it makes people more inclined to go check it out to see what the fuss is all about?

I've looked at receivers on sites I would have preferred not to have visited solely because I am trying to find a receiver with certain features (which I have not yet found) and I always wonder when I come across a receiver that is never mentioned on this site or any of the other "legitimate" sites. Is it because that receiver is a piece of junk and nobody wants it, or is it because someone has decided we don't need to know abut the FTA capabilities of that receiver because maybe it can be used for piracy?

As far as I know, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, no FTA receiver is equipped for piracy right out of the box. You have to do SOMETHING to make it function that way. And if your only criteria is whether a receiver COULD be used for piracy, that would catch several other receivers that are discussed in this forum. For example, I even saw "piracy" firmware for my now-kaput Diamond 9000HD on one or two sites. I would have never actually used it, and I have no idea if it actually worked, but it was available. If I remember correctly, there used to be "piracy" firmware available for some of the original Pansats.

Unless when you take the receiver out of the box and turn it on, it instantly starts receiving pirated signals without the user doing anything else, or if it won't work well for anything BUT piracy, then I don't think it does any good to censor the conversation, because there are plenty of other sites out there where such receivers are freely discussed. I think it is pretty insane to buy a pirate device in the first place (do you seriously expect to get any kind of warranty from a seller like that?) but as I have noted, in the case of the X2 there is a huge disconnect between the things being said about it here and what I have seen on other sites. Were it not that certain retailers seem to be offended by its very existence, I think the discussion about it on here would probably take a much more positive turn. Anyway, in this case the receiver apparently has very legitimate FTA uses, so I don't agree at all that any talk about it should be banned.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Anik hits on a good point.

One of the big reasons for the changes we have been making here at SatelliteGuys as of late is because we WANT people to talk about the receivers and equipment that they felt like they couldn't talk about here before. In getting feedback from you guys we found you were uncomfortable talking about products that our sponsors did not make or sell. THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WE NO LONGER HAVE SPONSORS!

As long as you are discussing the legitimate use of the box for FTA satellite then go for it no matter who makes it. Of course our NO HACK TALK policy remains, so no talk about the unwanted extras the box might have.

We want to make everyone feel welcome posting here talking about True FTA without feer of anyone editing or deleting your posts or banning you just because they don't like what you wrote. If its True FTA talk then it is welcome here at SatelliteGuys.

Yes for many its an awkward transition but understand we are doing this so you more comfortable and at home here at SatelliteGuys over the long hall.

 

[carlospr43]

Are you serious Scott??? The last time you and I didnt meet the same criteria over a discussion on the X2 you and nobody else deleted my post. So yes, sometimes post are deleted here. I have never talk or bring any non FTA issues to the forum which are usually bring by others thus sometimes I feel its used to go over the X2. There are tons of FTA brands out there which nobody knows which one meet or have their licences and most of them have the hardware and the software to go over the other side. I'm sorry to be so honest but you now what happens at the time and of what did you accused me of. On the positive side I was fortunately I wasn't banned at the time and I hope this time neither as well, :behindsofa:

 

[Bob2011]

For the sellers in the US market do you really think the licensing issues would actually matter in competing with your prices? Unless the numbers stated in this thread are not correct I don't see full compliance adding more than $10 or $12 to the price of the X2. Even with that added on, the X2 is 30% cheaper than the nearest "legit" alternative. My bet is that your boxes were almost a non issue when it came to them deciding on paying licensing fees. The more likely scenario is they looked at the pricing of the numerous Openbox models and their clones.

I get it, modern capitalism sucks for traditional American business models that have stores and employees. Some guy can now operate a full blown internet operation out of his bedroom or a run down apartment in a small Chinese city. Single digit profit margins are happily accepted by these folks. The only way to win is to design something totally new and push it as hard as you can before the thieves arrive. When it comes to something new in this space that means not using the same chips and factories that the clones already do. Design it in the US, build it in the US with quality components and you will have a winner. Even Anik will buy one.

 

[. Raine]

I will be the first to admit, it was a decent box, I even like that it came with 2 remotes. The issue I had with it was IKS sticking in the middle of the menu in the factory firmware.

As some have pointed out its hard to know what boxes are licensed to use the technology and those who use it without properly licensing it.

We as FTA fans need to stand together and decide what we want, cheap or real boxes made for the US market using licensed technology.

Guys like Joe and Brian work hard to make boxes for us Hobbiest here in the US. There boxes not only take a lot of design time, but money to design the box, to get it tested and to properly license the technology in the box. When cheap boxes like this come along it knocks the wind out of the sails of the companies trying to do it legit. We see people saying all the time buy Amaerican, yet when it comes down to actually doing it people will opt for the cheap knock off over the real thing and that unfortunately is hurting everyone in the end.

Sure you can go to New York City and buy a $100 Rolex off the street, but when you compare it to a real $10,000 rolex you realize your just wearing costume jewelry.

The IKS in the factory menu is the big issue with the box for me as well and that alone is enough for me to want to replace it. As FTA fans we do need to stand together and decide what we want, that's very true. But we also need more than just talk to jump fully on one side of the fence or the other. If someone comes to your house and tells you that your car is stolen, what is the first thing you're going to say? Prove it.

I don't know Joe, or Brian either, really, although I do believe all of what Brian says, and what Scott says. From reading posts on here for quite a while now, I have formed the opinion that Brian and Scott are very trustworthy people. But that's just me, others may just see all the bickering back and forth on this issue and form different opinions, especially new people here. We all could argue over this until the end of time and accomplish nothing.

I do work for a company that reproduces original vintage Ford parts, legally. They bought the original Ford tooling to do it, pay the royalties to Ford to do it, the hole nine yards. It's very expensive. Other companies make knock-offs that look exactly the same, only they don't have the Ford logo on them, they're a lot cheaper and illegal. When someone asks them how they know the other companies products are bogus, they give them a phone number to call at Ford, or a link, they don't just say, 'oh, it's illegal'.

This is a point that I'd tried to make earlier, that just saying to people that something is illegal without backing it up is not a good way to convince people of it and to "stand together" we really need to be informed, not just be told that this is so. If there's some legitimate reason why no one can offer proof, which there very well could be, then we should do as someone else suggested and ban discussions on the X2 and it's ilk completely.