would america have been SAFER with kerry?

with who would you be safer at this point? post 911

  • kerry as president

    Votes: 49 37.4%
  • bush as president

    Votes: 82 62.6%

  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .
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W. Tracy ... The problem with your post is that it's far too logical and void of histrionics. Far too much substance for some posters here too comprehend. I love it when someone actually uses words to say something, rather than unintelligibly rant like so many do. Kudos my friend .... :up


W_Tracy_Parnell said:
Yes it was a good post Van, but we are not in Iraq only because of WMD, which I assume you are referring to when you mention "false information". This post is not intended to be “piling on” you Van, but rather I am taking the opportunity to write something that has been on my mind of late.

We live in an age of "sound bites" and it seems the media has a desire to water issues down to one sentence. Now that stockpiles of WMD have not been found many people feel we should not be in Iraq or came under false pretenses. I often hear people say, “I don’t know why we are there”. I wish everyone would take the time to go online and read the resolution that Congress enacted which authorized the war. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

WMD was only one reason given for the war. I have summarized 10 other reasons:

1. Iraq's refusal to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors thereby violating cease-fire terms of the first gulf war.
2. Iraq's violation of 17 UN resolutions.
3. Iraq under Saddam had shown a willingness to use WMD against other nations and its own people and available intelligence showed he had WMD.
4. Brutal repression of the Iraqi people by Saddam-certainly one of the most powerful arguments when you consider as many as one million could have been murdered during his years in power.
5. Iraq had aided international terrorists.
6. The official policy of the US government was removal of Saddam as per the Iraq Liberation Act passed by Congress. This fact is not widely known by Americans in my opinion.
7. It is in the national interest of the US to restore stability to the Persian Gulf region.
8. Iraq’s 1993 assassination attempt against the first President Bush.
9. Thousands of instances of US planes being attacked by Iraq in the “No Fly Zone”.
10. Members of Al Qaeda were in Iraq.

Now, WMD were a major reason given certainly but not the only reason. In addition there are other unstated reasons for going into Iraq:

1. Look at a map. Iran, which is probably the biggest current threat to the US and Israel, is sandwiched between Afghanistan (now mostly under US control) and Iraq. It doesn’t take a genius to see that our strategic position in the terror war is strengthened greatly by having a “base” in Iraq and Afghanistan.
2. If we can win in Iraq, Iran will be at a disadvantage. Not only will we have troops there, but we will have the Iraqi troops as our ally as well. This will be a powerful deterrent to Iran if they should consider an attack on Iraq since the Iraqi troops would be highly motivated by memories of the Iran/Iraq conflict.
3. Syria, a prominent supporter of terrorism borders Iraq, again making Iraq of great importance strategically.
4. Any terrorists taken out in Iraq will be fewer we have to deal with later.

There are several other points worth mentioning here. As Simple Simon said, there is never one reason for going to war and in this case there are at least 10 others. As far as anyone “lying” or misleading about WMD, it didn’t happen. The CIA and all other available intelligence said there were WMD stockpiles. All the leading democrats said there were existing WMD:

http://farrightchatroom.blogspot.com/2006/03/blast-from-past-wmd-quotes.html

We know Saddam used WMD against the Kurds and the Iranians so it is beyond dispute that he had them. And if you know a guy like Saddam has WMD and you believe he will use them you would be remiss if you did nothing as President in my view. And if you are acting on the best information you have you are not “lying” whether you are talking about Bush or the Democratic leaders.

Van, you make the point that we have vast open borders on the north and south here in the US so we are unsafe. You are right and that is why we need to take the fight to the enemy on their turf which is basically anywhere in the Middle East. What is the difference if the battleground is in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or Iran as long as it is not in the US? The fight is still against the same enemy-Islamic Terrorism or whatever name you prefer to give it.

Now, anyone can make the argument that we should have fought the war differently and that is a valid concern. I would have favored a “declared war” against all countries known to support Islamic terrorism while we had the commitment from the American people. And you can say that Rumsfeld’s strategy has been wrong. But it was his policy from the time he took office to “downsize” the military and he carried this over to Iraq. He could make the argument that fewer troops in harm’s way mean fewer causalities.

But the point here is there are/were plenty of reasons to be in Iraq and they are still valid today three years later.
 
shugo77 said:
Agreed, too bad it will fall upon deaf ears.

deaf ears? Meaning those people who dare disagree with you.

I am one who thought going into Iraq had to be done. For those who question where the WMD's are look to Syria and Im sure you will find them there.

The problem I have with the Bush administration is the end game for this war. Lets either get in there and get the job done or pull out and save our boys lives.

The problem with the political landscape and with the presidential office as a whole is the fact that nobody who is right for the job wants it!

If you think Bush was elected and then re-elected on his economic platform or his foreign policy platform youre nuts!

Bush was elected because of the strength of the Bible belt. Religion is why Bush is in office not because the guy is a military genius.

Now as for do I feel safer, hell no I choose C they both sucked. Id rather Colin Powell be at the helm. But between the South and us prejudiced bastahds up here in boston there is no chance of that happening.
 
Here's the thing. You can argue about why we are there, how we got there, how long we will be there and so on. The point is you have terrorists all over the middle east whose stated goal is the destruction of the US and Israel. The problem is not going to go away unless they change their mind somehow and I don't see that happening. The way we are fighting this war is only one way to do it. But we are doing it and that is what is important and unavoidable in my view.


boston area dtv said:
deaf ears? Meaning those people who dare disagree with you.

I am one who thought going into Iraq had to be done. For those who question where the WMD's are look to Syria and Im sure you will find them there.

The problem I have with the Bush administration is the end game for this war. Lets either get in there and get the job done or pull out and save our boys lives.

The problem with the political landscape and with the presidential office as a whole is the fact that nobody who is right for the job wants it!

If you think Bush was elected and then re-elected on his economic platform or his foreign policy platform youre nuts!

Bush was elected because of the strength of the Bible belt. Religion is why Bush is in office not because the guy is a military genius.

Now as for do I feel safer, hell no I choose C they both sucked. Id rather Colin Powell be at the helm. But between the South and us prejudiced bastahds up here in boston there is no chance of that happening.
 
sidekick said:
W. Tracy ... The problem with your post is that it's far too logical and void of histrionics. Far too much substance for some posters here too comprehend. I love it when someone actually uses words to say something, rather than unintelligibly rant like so many do. Kudos my friend .... :up

Thanks Sidekick!!!
:up
 
ya know what guys, i never wanted comments added to the thread, but some of you make sense.

some thoughts.


the borders,

annex all of western canada from the french province to alaska.

annex all of northern mexico.

vehicle fuel,

feed OUR citizens, turn the rest of the corn and soy into ethanol, and the strand grass into methanol.

medicines,

stop the curing of AIDS/malaria/polio/smallpox etc. only immunize OUR citizens.

stop exporting all medicines overseas for any reason.

foreign aid,

stop it ALL for any country outside of NORTH AMERICA.

except for israel, and i am catholic.

military,

yank all personel overseas from everywhere back home.

3 year military duty for all 18-21 year olds

we would have the finest country on earth, for a long time, 3/4ths of africa would die of disease and famine.

asia would fall to the chi-coms

within 20 years at best, europe would fall to the muslim onslaught.

south america??who knows?? australia?? same thing!

is this what you want??
 
Lil hyperbole there dragon. All Im saying is lets just go get the job done. Lets stop pussy footing through Iraq and send more troops.

And if Iran needs a punch in the mouth while we are there then Im all for it. I am a democratic voter by nature (Im registered as an independent)


As for my military background I have none. Although I did work for the military when I was 18. ( I had a job while I was in college at USARIEM) I can say I had a part in adding M&Ms and Trail mix to cold weather rations MRE 6's and 8's.


Anyway I disagree and think that its foolish to state that this is the "only way" to get this done. Although I drank some of the same kool aid ..Im ont chugging it blindly
 
Boston,

the IRAN thing?? they have satellite pics. cripe,, a couple of nuclear bunker busters down the stacks, and at the same minute hit N.KOREA'S nuke workshop! do you really think Russia, France, Germany etc would really care?? hell no!

while I'm at it, 3 or 4 50,000 lb bunker busters into Teheran's presidential palace or into Kim IL Jung's bedroom would get some attention, it sure as hell got Qaddafi's
 
dragon002 said:
ya know what guys, i never wanted comments added to the thread, but some of you make sense.

some thoughts.


the borders,

annex all of western canada from the french province to alaska.

annex all of northern mexico.

vehicle fuel,

feed OUR citizens, turn the rest of the corn and soy into ethanol, and the strand grass into methanol.

medicines,

stop the curing of AIDS/malaria/polio/smallpox etc. only immunize OUR citizens.

stop exporting all medicines overseas for any reason.

foreign aid,

stop it ALL for any country outside of NORTH AMERICA.

except for israel, and i am catholic.

military,

yank all personel overseas from everywhere back home.

3 year military duty for all 18-21 year olds

we would have the finest country on earth, for a long time, 3/4ths of africa would die of disease and famine.

asia would fall to the chi-coms

within 20 years at best, europe would fall to the muslim onslaught.

south america??who knows?? australia?? same thing!

is this what you want??

I would absoluetly not want to live in that fascist hellhole.
 
george,

what hell hole ??

wed be all alone, taking care of our own.

the rest of the world could kiss our butt.

what is so wrong with that??
 
dragon002 said:
george,

what hell hole ??

wed be all alone, taking care of our own.

the rest of the world could kiss our butt.

what is so wrong with that??

Well, for one thing, by and large I enjoy the rest of the world. You should get a passport and try it.
 
NightHawk said:
I don't remember Bush promoting any false sense of security. On the contrary, his administration has been quite vocal in its warnings.
During the election Bush constantly said we "should" vote for him for security. Funny how his administration ignored all of the warnings prior to 9/11.

On one hand you accuse homeland security of being a farce and on the other you say your rights are restricted. Don't you see the contridiction? What exactly does FEMA have to do with it?
Protestors are restricted to "Free Speech Zones", the right of assembly has been questioned. You can be detained without charges. Your home can be searched and anything siezed without warrant. Is there abuse? No question. Yet we're no safer. FEMA was placed under Homeland Security so we not only ended up with an ineffective front organization, it destroyed the effectiveness of another. Contradiction? No. Even if Homeland Security was legitimate we trade fear of terrorism for fear of our own government.

I take it you don't agree with wiretapping Al Queda phone calls either? But you want security. But you want your rights. But you want to feel safe.
Illegal wiretapping in the U.S. is illegal no matter who does it. A simple court order is all that's needed. The republicans have a lot of experience with court orders during the 2000 election fiasco. You imply that to be safe we have to give up our rights. Why? I felt perfectly safe until Bush & Co. started denying citizens their constitutional rights. Bush has committed no less than treason in my opinion. He took an oath to uphold the constitution.
 
boston area dtv said:
deaf ears? Meaning those people who dare disagree with you..

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

I am one who thought going into Iraq had to be done. For those who question where the WMD's are look to Syria and Im sure you will find them there.

I still feel this way exactly

The problem I have with the Bush administration is the end game for this war. Lets either get in there and get the job done or pull out and save our boys lives.

Do you think we should cut and run and leave the job incomplete? Do you realize that the United States occupied Japan from 1945 to 1952 and Germany from 1944 to 1946 after WWII? Do you think that was a mistake also? :confused:

The problem with the political landscape and with the presidential office as a whole is the fact that nobody who is right for the job wants it!
If you think Bush was elected and then re-elected on his economic platform or his foreign policy platform youre nuts!

I can agree with this, there are probably a million people in this country that would make great presidents. Unfortunately, they will never run, mostly because they can't afford it. The fact is Bush is and was a better choice than Al Gore or John Kerry.

Bush was elected because of the strength of the Bible belt. Religion is why Bush is in office not because the guy is a military genius./QUOTE]

What's wrong with that, this country was founded on christian values and the large majority of Americans are christian, but that's just part of the reason., and who ever said Bush was a military genius? He is letting the generals run the war.

I voted for him because;
A.) He has strong morals (I don't think we will catch him getting a BJ in the oval office from an intern).
B.) He is a man of his word, not just a man full of words.
C.) He doesn't care what anyone thinks of him.
D.) He's got the guts to fight the war on terror.
E.) He's honest (he went with the pre-war intelligence given him, he never intentionally lied, despite popular belief among libs)
F.) He actually has ideas, he doesn't just criticize others. The democrats have never offered a plan for anything, they just criticize his plans
G.) He is positive and hopeful for the future, Democrats appear overwhelmingly negative these days.
H.) He is genuinely doing what he believes is best for the country, he is not swayed daily by polls, he sticks to his guns.
I.) He has a Bachelor's from Yale, and a has a Master's degree from Harvard. The man is very smart, maybe he isn't a great speaker, like Clinton, but he is smarter.
J.) Laura Bush is one of the classiest ladies I have ever seen, unlike her predecessor.
K.) He surrounds himself with brilliant people, like Condoleeza Rice.
L.) I do feel safer with him
M.) I liked his education plans
N.) I liked his social security plan
O.) Tax cuts for everyone, not just the poor, not just the rich, everyone. This put more money in my wallet, it put more money in my boss's wallet, which gave me a pay raise. It put more money in the wallets of my customers, which makes me more money at work as well.

this list can go on forever:D


Now as for do I feel safer, hell no I choose C they both sucked. Id rather Colin Powell be at the helm. But between the South and us prejudiced bastahds up here in boston there is no chance of that happening.

I'll take Colin Powell for president, too bad he'll never run.:(
 
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techpuppy said:
Illegal wiretapping in the U.S. is illegal no matter who does it. A simple court order is all that's needed. The republicans have a lot of experience with court orders during the 2000 election fiasco. You imply that to be safe we have to give up our rights. Why? I felt perfectly safe until Bush & Co. started denying citizens their constitutional rights. Bush has committed no less than treason in my opinion. He took an oath to uphold the constitution.

The country is divided on the wiretapping. Regardless of whether you believe the wiretapping is legal it certainly didn't make anyone less safe. I'm no lawyer but lawyers are going to argue this for years to come so my guess is the law is likely ambiguous on the issue. So what? Personally from what I know about the issue I feel the government took a few limited, prudent steps to interdict a threat many Americans fail to appreciate. If you are receiving phone calls from Al Qaeda operatives you are no citizen in my opinion. Now I'll grant you the issue isn't that simple but the government is not listening to you talk to uncle George and damage was undoubtedly done to our intelligence services by exposing this program. You do want it both ways when it comes to security IMO.

The issue has without question been seized by the democrats for political posturing. They pay lip service to security but don't have the sack to do anything about it. I don't care if you felt safe. The president obviously felt the wiretaps were necessary and to immediately default to a position that accuses the president of treason is illogical. The implication is the president had some sinister intent and who really believes that?
 
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boston area dtv said:
The problem I have with the Bush administration is the end game for this war. Lets either get in there and get the job done or pull out and save our boys lives.

I'm gettiing fairly tired of this sound-bite end-game. Can anyone tell me of one conflict where there was an end-game other than victory presented for public consumption?
 
techpuppy said:
Illegal wiretapping in the U.S. is illegal no matter who does it. A simple court order is all that's needed. The republicans have a lot of experience with court orders during the 2000 election fiasco. You imply that to be safe we have to give up our rights. Why? I felt perfectly safe until Bush & Co. started denying citizens their constitutional rights. Bush has committed no less than treason in my opinion. He took an oath to uphold the constitution.

Ok so you think the President committed treason (which is just simply crazy). Just for the record here is Oran's Dictionary of Law's definition of treason.

In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."

Now explain to me how the wiretapping program falls into the definition, please use small words.

Ok so now that we know what the definition of treason is (according to the law) let us just say that the President committed treason. What about all the Democrats on the House and Senate Intelligence Committies that knew this was going on. Because if you think for one second that nobody in congress knew this was going on well......that in and of itself is just as crazy as thinking the President committed treason.
 
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Solar Eclipse 2006

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