Wiring up my next project

[a33]

2) To verify placement - It appears that the coil would be inserted between the external power supply and the capacitor on the 'motor' side of the splitter. Is that correct?

Absolutely correct.

As for testing: Because you have a 22kHz satellite meter, testing will be easy I guess: you immediately can see results.

I don't know if copper is important, or that you can use any metal for the wire (sorry, I said 'thread' earlier. That's the problem with languages...)
I don't know if you can have a result already with a wire winded up to a coil, with all its plastic protection on it. Might do the job?

If you want coated copper: You can always unwind a (broken) transformator, if you have one. Or reuse another coil from somewhere.

For testing purposes, I would probably make more than 12 windings. If the coil is not as efficient as an 'official' coil, a few extra windings might do the job.


Btw: did you also test if 22kHz comes back, as soon as you disconnect the power supply from your splitter? That would prove our diagnosis beyond reasonable doubt....

Greetz,
A33

 

[Bongu]

The coating on the coil wire is required. If you just use bare wire and have it touching the loop next to it, you have only inserted a jumper wire and will see that effect.

 

[a33]

Jason S:

Any progress? I'm curious!

I googled on the schematics of power inserters, and found that they normally use coils of 2uH till 22 uH. I'm anxious that the coil in my sat-splitter doesn't reach that value.
I haven't had time though to test the functionality of my splitter with external power, and the coming weeks are difficult.
[I thought maybe you could also use a coil from a loudspeaker-box, but then these could be over 1 mH when I interpret the schematics of loudspeakerboxes on the internet. Such a high value might hinder your motor function?? ]

And does anyone have ideas if there is a difference between oldfashioned transformators with diodes and "switching" power transformers (e.g. laptop power units), in respect to the need for RF-choking?

Btw, nice picture of a homemade power-inserter in this discussion:
http://discussions.flightaware.com/ads-b-flight-tracking-f21/home-brew-power-inserter-t26933.html

greetz,
A33

 

[Jason S]

Jason S:

Any progress? I'm curious!

I googled on the schematics of power inserters, and found that they normally use coils of 2uH till 22 uH. I'm anxious that the coil in my sat-splitter doesn't reach that value.
I haven't had time though to test the functionality of my splitter with external power, and the coming weeks are difficult.
[I thought maybe you could also use a coil from a loudspeaker-box, but then these could be over 1 mH when I interpret the schematics of loudspeakerboxes on the internet. Such a high value might hinder your motor function?? ]

And does anyone have ideas if there is a difference between oldfashioned transformators with diodes and "switching" power transformers (e.g. laptop power units), in respect to the need for RF-choking?

Btw, nice picture of a homemade power-inserter in this discussion:
http://discussions.flightaware.com/ads-b-flight-tracking-f21/home-brew-power-inserter-t26933.html

greetz,
A33

Hey A33,

I really like the link you provided, thank you! As for progress, I've been a bit busy on other projects recently...

There has been some work on making coils and a few tests, but nothing I've tried thus far has been worth reporting yet. Of the coils tried, they have been homemade air core of various sizes and some insulated magnet wire coils.

On the RF choking, I've used an 18v cordless drill battery pack with this which I would presume would be a 'clean' DC source and still haven't had any results. But I may may be mistaken.

There's a second receiver ordered and in transit. Once it arrives, there will be a spare receiver that I can use to continue this project and hopefully have something worth posting.

 

[Jason S]

Good news, everyone! I was able to get back to doing some tests and have something worth reporting, the HH-120 has been externally powered...

First, a few photos of what hasn't worked, without choke coils and with choke coils on the external power side:

In the above photos, tests were conducted with a Manhattan RS-1933 and an Amiko Mini HD SE. Power supplies from laptops, 18v cordless drill batteries, Directv 21v power supply and 9v batteries hooked in series with 22khz tone pass.

In the meantime, I researched a lot and took a few additional looks at the photos Qwert1515 posted in the thread external power to a HH motor

I decided to try a bit of an alternative route, though essentially the same design.

The new design is 8-inches of coax with a section of shielding cut out at approximately the middle to expose the center conductor. On each end of the two coax, the black jacket has been cut away and a piece of telephone wire (orange/pink wire) tied to connect ground to each end of the coax. The green wires are additional telephone wire, with extra length in case needed. The green wires have been tied to the coax braid shield and connect the ground together on each length of coax. At the center of the coax, I used a 1.0K-250v capacitor (1.0uf) that I had used in my first trials with this. Power is a Directv 21v (20.5v on voltmeter) SWM power supply.

An Amiko HD SE was used for these tests using USALS. As I just got the receiver and do not have it fully set up, only three positions were tested this evening (97W, 95W and 87W). With each test, the dish moved to the appropriate location.

View of external power supply with splitter. Sat meter side is to HH-120 motor; coax with green tape is to LNBF on dish with other end to receiver. Motor output port is not used.


View of capacitor used. This is the same capacitor I used with the project at the start in the 'project box'.


View of device with tape measure for reference.


View of 22khz pass through on external power side of device connected to HH-120.


Test results have the dish moving to the appropriate location with the 20.5v from the power supply. Tests have been run with 20'-25' (approximate lengths) of coax to motor and dish. If necessary, I may make another splitter with longer lengths prior to the insertion position of the capacitor. I'm lead to believe the proximity of the coax to each other contribute to the 22khz pass via 'capacitance of a pair of parallel wires'. More tests are planned with the current splitter setup to see if it'll work okay on longer coax runs.

 

[Jason S]

Test results from today.

Used the power inserting splitter and the Amiko Mini HD SE in the shop near the motorized dish. Ran the dish from 72W to 127W and scanned each position. Nothing unusual was noted.

While scanning, made a second splitter with much longer lengths of coax prior to the insertion point of the capacitor. This splitter did not work, but showed 22khz pass on the external power side.

With a poor result from the longer splitter, it was cut down and made into another splitter slightly longer than the one in the post above using a 1.5uF. J -250v capacitor. This second splitter also worked at the test bench (20'-25' from motor/dish). Photo below with previous splitter:


View of capacitor on second splitter:


The main test:
Receiver in house to Amiko 8/1 Diseqc switch, 100' of coax to splitter insertion point in shop and then another 20'-25' to HH-120.

Test 1) First splitter used. Manhattan RS-1933 receiver used. 22khz tone at satellite meter, but no dish movement.

Test 2) Second splitter used. Same parameters as above, with no motor movement using the Manhattan. 22khz tone was shown on satellite meter.

Test 3) Second splitter used, but with Amiko HD SE receiver. 22 khz tone on satellite meter. Satellite dish motor moved to all positions selected.

Conclusion:
No idea why the splitter works as desired with the Amiko but not the Manhattan. As the Amiko is being worked into the setup and the motor load has been taken off the receiver and 8/1 switch, I'm going to call this wiring job a success...

 

[a33]

So, the detection of 22kHz is helpfull, but still no guarantee that motor is moving.... eek!

Why did you chose the short parallel-cables version, instead of the little box you had earlier?
I would like to understand why your new setup is working (and why the longer parallel cables didn't work?). Sometimes success is in little details; but which details in this case, and why?

Strange that it only works with your Amiko, but not with the Manhattan.

Greetz,
A33

 

[Titanium]

If you have a scope, check the amplitude level of the 22KHz/DiSeqC signals between the two STBs. STBs often do not put out the typical 0.8v control signals. You might find that one STB is lower than typical 0.8 or one may be a very high level. I have seen some STBs output as low as 0.3v and others 2.0v. Your cable may be attenuating the signal too much or the STB may be the problem.

 

[Jason S]

So, the detection of 22kHz is helpfull, but still no guarantee that motor is moving.... eek!

From what was observed, yes (at least with the receivers I've used so far).

Why did you chose the short parallel-cables version, instead of the little box you had earlier?

Looking at the photos of what inspired the splitter, Qwert1515 had the cables closer to each other than what I had in the original box. I thought to try again with a closer arrangement of the coax and it seemed to work, at least with one receiver.

I would like to understand why your new setup is working (and why the longer parallel cables didn't work?). Sometimes success is in little details; but which details in this case, and why?

I'm curious too... I ran a few more tests this evening, including a third receiver in the house and the 1st and 2nd splitter in the shop test location. Will try to do a few more test setups and post results.

If you have a scope, check the amplitude level of the 22KHz/DiSeqC signals between the two STBs. STBs often do not put out the typical 0.8v control signals.

Without a scope and apart from the cheap satellite meter showing 22khz, are there tests for 22khz/Diseqc signal that can be performed using something like an analog or digital volt meter?