Reading my mind on that one-kept HBO on D* any way-just gonna add all the premiums like I had it and go down to the 39.90 option(plus Pboy of course) to make up the difference-what a shame Voom-customers already fleeing a, do I dare say, "sinking ship?"GeneWildershair said:I would have to agree with the VOOM exclusives still looking pretty nice. But those premium movie channels took a big hit in PQ lately. I might go down in package too, and just go back to getting SHowtime, and HBO hd with D* again. Well until VOOM fixes the compression that is.
Voom Pq
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I've been studying the HD picture quality problems for most of the night tonight and have come to the conclusion that we are seeing the results of too much compression. I can see MPEG2 artifacts on just about every HD channel. It's just that some material is more revealing than others, so you have to know what to look for and what the artifacts look like. You also have to know how to spot imperfections in the source material and know the difference between source imperfections and encoding errors and compression artifacts.
For HD video (as opposed to film) material, the Voom picture is very very soft (loss of resolution), with slightly washed out colors (loss of color space information) - artifacts of over compression. Complex textures seem to "crawl" and I even spotted macro blocking and aliasing errors - all typical MPEG2 artifacts. When I saw Analyze That tonight, I threw on the DVD and synced it up to the movie the best I could, and my DVD actually looked just as good than the HD signal. My DVD of Star Wars looked considerably better than the HD version shown on HBO tonight.
I have a 9" CRT projector projected onto a 100" x 56" screen, and is one of only two CRT projectors made that can fully resolve 1080p (yes, 1080p, not 1080i), so my gear is well up to the task and is extremely unforgiving of poor source material.
When I first got Voom on Monday, the PQ looked almost as good as the 1080p Windows Media Video 9 files that I have played back on my system, and to this day WMV9 running at 1080p produces the finest image I have seen anywhere...period. Since about Wednesday or Thursday (I didn't take note of the actual time, as I wasn't expecting a problem), the PQ has gone down to that of an average DVD, and I am not even considering the pixelization, frame drops, and stuttering problems. Had I not seen what Voom was capable of outputting, I would have canceled my account based on the current picture quality.
Just as a check on my sanity, I tried the same tests on my little InFocus X1 (my bedroom projector), and the results were the same. I also asked a few of my video trained friends over, and without telling them anything, showed them the Voom HD channels tonight....they were not impressed in the least.
I truly hope that Voom has merely got a problem that needs repairing and that this is not going to be the status quo from now on. They have chosen to enter a market where their early adopters are bound to be a very picky bunch, and handing them anything less than the best PQ possible will just serve to kill any chances of this service taking off. I mean, what good is the motto "HDTV delivered" if the signal is not up to HD standards? Voom has demonstrated that they certainly have the capability to deliver the goods - now the question remains "Will they?"
For HD video (as opposed to film) material, the Voom picture is very very soft (loss of resolution), with slightly washed out colors (loss of color space information) - artifacts of over compression. Complex textures seem to "crawl" and I even spotted macro blocking and aliasing errors - all typical MPEG2 artifacts. When I saw Analyze That tonight, I threw on the DVD and synced it up to the movie the best I could, and my DVD actually looked just as good than the HD signal. My DVD of Star Wars looked considerably better than the HD version shown on HBO tonight.
I have a 9" CRT projector projected onto a 100" x 56" screen, and is one of only two CRT projectors made that can fully resolve 1080p (yes, 1080p, not 1080i), so my gear is well up to the task and is extremely unforgiving of poor source material.
When I first got Voom on Monday, the PQ looked almost as good as the 1080p Windows Media Video 9 files that I have played back on my system, and to this day WMV9 running at 1080p produces the finest image I have seen anywhere...period. Since about Wednesday or Thursday (I didn't take note of the actual time, as I wasn't expecting a problem), the PQ has gone down to that of an average DVD, and I am not even considering the pixelization, frame drops, and stuttering problems. Had I not seen what Voom was capable of outputting, I would have canceled my account based on the current picture quality.
Just as a check on my sanity, I tried the same tests on my little InFocus X1 (my bedroom projector), and the results were the same. I also asked a few of my video trained friends over, and without telling them anything, showed them the Voom HD channels tonight....they were not impressed in the least.
I truly hope that Voom has merely got a problem that needs repairing and that this is not going to be the status quo from now on. They have chosen to enter a market where their early adopters are bound to be a very picky bunch, and handing them anything less than the best PQ possible will just serve to kill any chances of this service taking off. I mean, what good is the motto "HDTV delivered" if the signal is not up to HD standards? Voom has demonstrated that they certainly have the capability to deliver the goods - now the question remains "Will they?"
oddwunn said:
thank you for your honest post. I don't have the fancy equipment you have, but I have a decent calibrated set up, and very good eyes. Since you sound as if you really know what you're talking about what exactly is that on Showtime HD west. It's not like the typical pixelation I notice on other chanels, even though there is some that there too. But what I am talking about is this strange blur effect that happens when there is fast movements going on in a scene. It kind of blurs just for a second then clears up. It's hard to explain but it happens with just about everything shown on that channel. If you see it, and know what it is please let me know. Sometimes the picture will stutter, just after this blur, and lose sync with the audio just a for a moment too. I only notice this wierd problem on this channel, and just for a day it was on RaveHD, but haven't seen it since on Rave.
Hehe, no I'm not a professional in the business. I am just a hobbyist who has spent the last 5 years doing tons of MPEG2 , MPEG4, and now WMV9 encodes, so I have developed an eye for what to look for, that's all.
I believe that those are encoding errors, but since I am not familiar with the equipment and software they are using, I don't know for sure. I am not particularly worried about artifacts like that, as they are so obvious that Voom could not possibly let them ride without fixing them.
What I am concerned about is the over compression. A lot of people with smaller or lower resolution displays may not notice the difference in quality loss as the compression gets higher, but if tolerated, then Voom might continue to increase the compression for as long as they can get away with it. If you want to see the results of horrendous compression, just take a look at any of the D* locals (satellite, not OTA) - they are barely even watchable IMHO.
One easy way to spot the artifacts of over compression in MPEG2 is to watch a sports feed. Look at the field. These artifacts are clearly visible in DirecTV local broadcasts of NFL or any other field sports.
Even when there is no action on the field the grass crawls, or blocks. You end up with something that looks like a shifting quilt of unusually large patches of grass. Add fast movement and the blocking gets worse.
When I first got VOOM I REALLY enjoyed soccer on WorldSports because this artifact was not there. Now you can see it in almost every game. Not nearly as bad as D* locals but definitely noticeable.
Another example is anything lit with strobes. You really need full bandwidth and good encoders to avoid artifacts with strobes. The Grammies (sp?) on CBS OTA and the Britney Concert are perfect examples of this problem. The more the information changes from one frame to the next the more bandwidth is needed. As one can imagine pretty much the entire screen changes during each frame with strobe lighting.
I will be letting VOOM know in as many ways as I can that this is absolutely not acceptable! I would readilly give up a few channels to go back to previous quality levels. They need to get the message loud an clear that slowly turning up the compression over time like D* did is just absolutely not acceptable.
I came to this service for HD not SD. I personally don't care if they stop adding SD content or even scale it back. The could also consolidate some HD content with less repetition. All of this has been suggested before. I am only saying that if you feel this way make sure you let them know. VOOM should not get distracted from the core mission of pushing HD.
Even when there is no action on the field the grass crawls, or blocks. You end up with something that looks like a shifting quilt of unusually large patches of grass. Add fast movement and the blocking gets worse.
When I first got VOOM I REALLY enjoyed soccer on WorldSports because this artifact was not there. Now you can see it in almost every game. Not nearly as bad as D* locals but definitely noticeable.
Another example is anything lit with strobes. You really need full bandwidth and good encoders to avoid artifacts with strobes. The Grammies (sp?) on CBS OTA and the Britney Concert are perfect examples of this problem. The more the information changes from one frame to the next the more bandwidth is needed. As one can imagine pretty much the entire screen changes during each frame with strobe lighting.
I will be letting VOOM know in as many ways as I can that this is absolutely not acceptable! I would readilly give up a few channels to go back to previous quality levels. They need to get the message loud an clear that slowly turning up the compression over time like D* did is just absolutely not acceptable.
I came to this service for HD not SD. I personally don't care if they stop adding SD content or even scale it back. The could also consolidate some HD content with less repetition. All of this has been suggested before. I am only saying that if you feel this way make sure you let them know. VOOM should not get distracted from the core mission of pushing HD.
Since I just got VOOM since the PQ has been declining, I have a question about SD for people who have had VOOM longer.
SD looks very dark and washed out to me. Have the SD channels always looked like this? Or is this something that we may expect to get better in the coming weeks/months?
SD looks very dark and washed out to me. Have the SD channels always looked like this? Or is this something that we may expect to get better in the coming weeks/months?
slffl said:
Well for starters, SD looks much better on S-video or composite. For an expalantion as to why, read this thread at the AVS forums: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=320181
Ignore the fact that the author was focused on Plasma tuning and read the parts as to why SD does not do well on connections that are supposed to be better than S-vid or composite. Specifically read "5. HOOKING UP YOUR DISPLAY FOR BEST NTSC QUALITY"
Hammer
Picture quality on Discovery HD Theatre has really went down since I signed up with Voom. Blocks all over the place. I didn't sign up with Voom to see those. If it continues, I am getting gone AFTER A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME TO SEE IF IT IMPROVES. I don't care about the quality of the SD channels as I have those on cable so I don't watch those on the big screen.
Lem52
Lem52
I am watching the adventures of Jimmy Neutron on Nickelodeon, 5:37pm in SD on my 47" rptv. I recall being told that nick looked awful but this picture is great! I see to blurriness, no short red sparklies. the animation looks almost 3d to me and my son has it stretched.
I been with Vomm since 3/30/04 and I have'nt seen any improvement in PQ. Voom's PQ is not as good as Directv PQ, I can guaranteed you that since I have both services, if at least you guys could compare both services at the same time, you would know the big difference.
Vooms PQ has dramatically improved over a few weeks ago. Many on this forum are running A/B switches and subscribe to both services.Ernesto said:
There are two recent threads over at AVS forum on users complaining about problems witht he picture shaking on discoveryhd and shohd. And of green flashes/bars on espnhd and hdnet. 4 channels. Thats PQ problems with 2/3 of D*'s HD channels. (4 out of 6)
There are two recent threads over at AVS forum on users complaining about problems witht he picture shaking on discoveryhd and shohd. And of green flashes/bars on espnhd and hdnet. 4 channels. Thats PQ problems with 2/3 of D*'s HD channels. (4 out of 6)eschu97611 said:
you mean when d* is working. cant compare the other 27 channels because d* doesnt have them . LMAO
Im glad you watched this time. But 6 HD channels on D* compared to voom is the equivalent of 20 hours a month of HD on espnhd. I continue to wonder how D* is going to increase their HD significantly without going to Mpeg4 or WM9. I believe those compression schemes will greatly improve the PQ for all providers. I just feel sorry that the D* users will probably have to purchase 500-700 dollar boxes to see it. D* is not known for renting their equipment. And after current customers have purchased a 400 D* HD reciever they are now using it just seems like HD isnt really a significant part of D*'s plans. OR that D* hasnt really planned anything.eschu97611 said:
Im sure that the new sat 7s going up will provide them starshd and cinemaxhd, tmchd so that D* can collect another 30-40 bucks and probably a wasted foxhd east, west or maybe even abc or nbc hd channels. But those network hd channels will not be had by a subscriber that isnt in an O&O or doesnt have reception problems OTA. But after the 7s? ANother launch in 2005 or 6? Too long of a wait for me and I for one am tired of buying boxes.
Wow-an eruption of words from vurb-anyhoo, I probably watch more D* than Voom simply because the pq is nicer on the former-will be happy to tout Voom's pq once it is restored to its original glory-LMAOvurbano said:
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