VOOM Goes BOOM - update Dish Drops all 15 VOOM Channels

Status
Please reply by conversation.
BTW, now that VOOM contact has been terminated (May, 2008), I am sure all DishHD customers are saving the $3.25 - $4.00 E* was paying VOOM each month...right? ;)

That's really been the #1 issue here for me. Yes, they added a lot of HD channels, but they were ones we already had in SD...which means they don't cost much/anything to offer to people who have SD packages.

They essentially replaced Voom with MGM and WFN and pocketed the rest. Looks like they might be adding two more, so that's something, I guess.
 
...disputes with local broadcasters, like KTEN, and cable network programmers (e.g., Lifetime, GolTV, etc.) all sound the same and therefore lend credibility to VOOM's statement regarding E*'s tactics to force a better deal or concoct reasons to terminate the affiliation agreeement. From the KTEN website:


"We certainly don't want to lose any of our viewers. We worked diligently to come to an agreement with DISH, in fact we were available until the final minutes of our agreement in hopes of working out a fair agreement with them. DISH remained unwilling to negotiate with us, unfortunately, DISH has decided, instead to inconvenience their subscribers by removing KTEN and resorting to tactics aimed at forcing KTEN to accept their unreasonable terms." Hmmmm...where have we heard this before?:rolleyes:

In other news
http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-forum/159569-changes-some-locals-1-1-09-a.html
DirectTV drops locals, including at least one being offered free
http://www.satelliteguys.us/time-wa...-mtv-vh1-nick-comedy-central-off-averted.html
TWC barely averts Viacom being yanked off the air.

So apparently these other companies are allowed to use the same tactics.

You be the judge...

BTW, now that VOOM contact has been terminated (May, 2008), I am sure all DishHD customers are saving the $3.25 - $4.00 E* was paying VOOM each month...right? ;)

I am being the judge. You just don't like my judgment:) Nor do I think you will like the real judge's judgment.

And right before Dish dropped Voom, they added plenty of more HD that more than made up for my loss. I think that's where our $4 went.

As to your previous post, I encourage you to note my use of the word "if" particularly if you are going to insist I note the use of your word "factoid";)
 
Here's a nice "factoid", this time from a Dish filing:

"Echostar's auditors performed and extensive review of [Voom HD] Network's books and records from October 22-26, 2007 at [Voom HD] Network's offices in Long Island. This audit confirmed that ... [Voom HD] Networks had only spent $59.1 million on the service. In addition, even though [Voom HD] Networks claimed that it had "spent" $12 million in overhead allocations form Cablevision and Rainbow Media, [Voom HD] Networks did not give the auditors access to those records and therefore, the auditors could not validate the claim. In view of these finding, EchoStar concuded that [Voom HD] Networks had not spent $100 million on the service, and, therfore, EchoStar had the right to terminate the Agreement."

Even with the $12, that's only $71.1M. Based on my understanding, even if you by the reduction from 21 to 15 channels, that requred them to spend $82M (it was a specified reduction in the agreement, not just a straight redution based on $4.76M/channel)

If you really want people to be the judge, here's as close to the full story as we have: Voom's ammended complaint, and EchoStar's response.
 

Attachments

  • voom_amended_complaint.pdf
    1.4 MB · Views: 197
  • Echostar Answer.pdf
    890.4 KB · Views: 153
In other news
http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-forum/159569-changes-some-locals-1-1-09-a.html
DirectTV drops locals, including at least one being offered free
http://www.satelliteguys.us/time-wa...-mtv-vh1-nick-comedy-central-off-averted.html
TWC barely averts Viacom being yanked off the air.

So apparently these other companies are allowed to use the same tactics.



I am being the judge. You just don't like my judgment:) Nor do I think you will like the real judge's judgment.

And right before Dish dropped Voom, they added plenty of more HD that more than made up for my loss. I think that's where our $4 went.

As to your previous post, I encourage you to note my use of the word "if" particularly if you are going to insist I note the use of your word "factoid";)
You are certainliy entitled to your opinion and, when all the evidence and artifacts are available for close examination, a judge and/or jury would certainly be morally obligated to vote in EchoStar's favor if, in fact, VOOM breached the agreement. Needless to say, I will fully support the verdict.

My only heartache is SOME people in this thread base their opinions (and state them as facts) solely on whether they love or hate VOOM. Personally, I loved the VOOM channels, and I enjoyed the Dish Network service prior to switching to FiOS, but I try to base my opinion on something more substantive than "VOOM Rocks" or "E* Sucks".

Again, E* may very well have been right to terminate the agreement and will prevail in the Courts, but this goes against everything I have read and flies in the face of common sense. However, without have full access to all the artifacts...the Affiliation Agreement (Nov 2005), pre-affiliation agreement (April 2005), meeting minutes, emails, financials, witness deposition, expert witness reports, etc., there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who is legally correct.

Finally, while other MSOs have disputes with programmers, E* has a long history of public disputes that involved services being disrupted for the their customers. Your grouping E* with all other MSOs is akin to labeling a loving father and Ted Bundy as killers...completely ignoring the fact that the loving father simply administered frontier justice on Ted Bundy's carcass after he was caught murdering his daughter. Additionally, you conveniently forgot to mention that none of the above MSOs were being sued by their programmers (as in VOOM), nor were they successfully sued for patent infringement by any of the DVR companies (Tivo, SA, Motorola)...heck, I even think D* and TW legally license Tivo's Intellectual Property, and do not steal it.

So apparently the other MSOs do not employ the same tactics.;)
 
That's really been the #1 issue here for me. Yes, they added a lot of HD channels, but they were ones we already had in SD...which means they don't cost much/anything to offer to people who have SD packages.

They essentially replaced Voom with MGM and WFN and pocketed the rest. Looks like they might be adding two more, so that's something, I guess.
I can guarantee you that a lot of MSOs are not paying much, if anything, extra for the HD feed. In fact, it won't be much longer before the analog and SD feeds completely disappear and the MSOs repackag/downrezzed signals for those customer with older receivers.

Also, quite a few people signed-up for Dish Network service because of the Affiliation Agreement with VOOM. Yes, the fine print does not guarantee any particular channel lineup, but it reasonable to conclude that the VOOM channels would be around based on the agreement and E*s 20% equity in VOOM HD.
 
Here's a nice "factoid", this time from a Dish filing:

"Echostar's auditors performed and extensive review of [Voom HD] Network's books and records from October 22-26, 2007 at [Voom HD] Network's offices in Long Island. This audit confirmed that ... [Voom HD] Networks had only spent $59.1 million on the service. In addition, even though [Voom HD] Networks claimed that it had "spent" $12 million in overhead allocations form Cablevision and Rainbow Media, [Voom HD] Networks did not give the auditors access to those records and therefore, the auditors could not validate the claim. In view of these finding, EchoStar concuded that [Voom HD] Networks had not spent $100 million on the service, and, therfore, EchoStar had the right to terminate the Agreement."

Even with the $12, that's only $71.1M. Based on my understanding, even if you by the reduction from 21 to 15 channels, that requred them to spend $82M (it was a specified reduction in the agreement, not just a straight redution based on $4.76M/channel)

If you really want people to be the judge, here's as close to the full story as we have: Voom's ammended complaint, and EchoStar's response.
Thanks for the posting! As far as I recall, all court documents were posted in the First amended complaint filed in Voom vs. Echostar Lawsuit thread. However, that thread has kind of lost steam...and most people like bickering in this one.:rolleyes:

Also, VOOM denies the above statement and insists they not only met the Spend requirement, but they exceeded it by millions of dollars:

"As EchoStar is well aware from documentation supplied to it by VOOM HD, VOOM HD in fact spent 102.9 million on VOOM in 2005, not only achieving the requisite threshold, but exceeding it by millions of dollars, if not tens of millions."

"In 2006 alone, VOOM HD spent a total of approximately $102,890,000, almost $3 million more than even EchoStar contends that VOOM HD was required to spend in 2006 and far in excess of its actual spending requirement."

"At the conclusion of the October 2007 audit (the "Audit"), EchoStar's lead auditor, Katherine Knight, found that all matters were in order and raised no issues or concerns."

"Similarly, during negotiations, Rainbow Media furnished EchoStar with budgeted financial information that made clear that while Rainbow Media would spend up to $100 on a 21-channel verision of VOOM, not all of that amount would be spent on "Contractual Rights" and "Programming/Production." The budgeted financial information indicated that spending on the VOOM service would include direct programming expenses, as well as the above described allocations and other legitimate expenses that allowed VOOM HD to operate, product and support its VOOM service."

You know...like salaries and expenses for engineering, operations, marketing, public relations, legal and business staff. I don't know about you, but the last time I purchased a vehicle or poured a glass of water from the spiggot, I was paying for the product, labor, operations, and overhead expenses too. I am not sure where VOOM is getting its 102.9 million, but here are some of the expenses they listed for 2006:

$6.067 million in shared overhead (gotta pay the executives, file SEC reports, information systems must be must be SOX compliant, etc.)
$59.1 in direct programming expenses (licensing fees, production, etc.)
$14.3 in Salaries & Benefits (employees actually enjoy getting paid)
$2.8 million in "On Air Promotions"
$3.2 million in "HD Transfer Costs" (it is hard to have an HD lineup if you don't transfer it to an HD format)
$2.2 million in "Marketing" (doesn't this have a direct benefit to Dish Network...whether they are a provider and business partner?)

$87.667 million already...
 
I don't know about you, but the last time I purchased a vehicle or poured a glass of water from the spiggot, I was paying for the product, labor, operations, and overhead expenses too. I am not sure where VOOM is getting its 102.9 million, but here are some of the expenses they listed for 2006:

$6.067 million in shared overhead (gotta pay the executives, file SEC reports, information systems must be must be SOX compliant, etc.)
$59.1 in direct programming expenses (licensing fees, production, etc.)
$14.3 in Salaries & Benefits (employees actually enjoy getting paid)
$2.8 million in "On Air Promotions"
$3.2 million in "HD Transfer Costs" (it is hard to have an HD lineup if you don't transfer it to an HD format)
$2.2 million in "Marketing" (doesn't this have a direct benefit to Dish Network...whether they are a provider and business partner?)

$87.667 million already...

Close to home, since I work for the water department. The stipulation was $100 million on the "service", not just on Voom. I may pay for overhead with my water bill, but I expect a requise amount to make sure my water is safe, clean, and wholesome. If not, I'm moving to somewhere with better water service. If overhead was included, what would have stopped a Dolan from taking a $100M salary and automating Voom programming to what they had license to, spending nothing on programming at all?

Shared overhead? Do they mean shared with other Rainbow properties like IFC, AMC, and WE? If so, those shouldn't count.
Salaries and benefits? Are such costs part of the agreement? Should they be included? That is to be decided.
On air promotions (they really spent THAT much on those "here's ehats happening on another Voom HD network ads?). Questionable if those count.
"Marketing" - Was it marketing the service to customers (is so, they did a bad job). Who knows if that counts. Heck, they could be claiming marketing to other providers.

Personally, I think they get an award for creative accounting. if you can;t see where they get $102.9M from as a Voom supporter, I doubt a impartial judge will.
 
As an IT Manager in an Executive office, I have seen and know first hand how complex accounting is and that accounting departments and auditors can make their analysis read any way they want.

Echostar "claims" Voom didn't do what Echostar wanted them to. We will see.

This is all about money, not programming.
 
Close to home, since I work for the water department. The stipulation was $100 million on the "service", not just on Voom. I may pay for overhead with my water bill, but I expect a requise amount to make sure my water is safe, clean, and wholesome. If not, I'm moving to somewhere with better water service. If overhead was included, what would have stopped a Dolan from taking a $100M salary and automating Voom programming to what they had license to, spending nothing on programming at all?

Shared overhead? Do they mean shared with other Rainbow properties like IFC, AMC, and WE? If so, those shouldn't count.
Salaries and benefits? Are such costs part of the agreement? Should they be included? That is to be decided.
On air promotions (they really spent THAT much on those "here's ehats happening on another Voom HD network ads?). Questionable if those count.
"Marketing" - Was it marketing the service to customers (is so, they did a bad job). Who knows if that counts. Heck, they could be claiming marketing to other providers.

Personally, I think they get an award for creative accounting. if you can;t see where they get $102.9M from as a Voom supporter, I doubt a impartial judge will.
All very good questions (gotta love accountants...and statisticians too!), but I doubt any further useful information can be gleaned from the court records without having access to closely guarded business records. Right now, both parties disagree as the terms terms and conditions of the contract...their million dollar lawyers can't agree on the terms and conditions of the contract...and the lawyers who drafted the contract can't agree on the terms and conditions of the contract.

One thing is for certain...the lawyers are going to be the big winners in this one.
 
BTW, now that VOOM contact has been terminated (May, 2008), I am sure all DishHD customers are saving the $3.25 - $4.00 E* was paying VOOM each month...right? ;)

I am. Actually I am saving $10 since I dropped to the lower tier. The only thing I watched on that tier was Voom. I also get more channels that I watch when dish added the channels around the time of the Voom takedown.
 
I am. Actually I am saving $10 since I dropped to the lower tier. The only thing I watched on that tier was Voom. I also get more channels that I watch when dish added the channels around the time of the Voom takedown.

You'd save even more if you dropped Dish all together and just started borrowing books from the library...:D
 
Curious in wondering why Voom programming schedule is still current?

We should hear from the court "soon" shouldn't we?

I don't know...I was wondering the same thing.

I mean, if Voom is really dead...than frickin' die already....if for no other reason than that we can at least hope to see some of that content in another viable form...
 
I don't know...I was wondering the same thing.

I mean, if Voom is really dead...than frickin' die already....if for no other reason than that we can at least hope to see some of that content in another viable form...
Because it's still on Cablevision until late Jan.
 
Curious in wondering why Voom programming schedule is still current?

We should hear from the court "soon" shouldn't we?


If I read the statement from VOOM ending domestic service correctly they indicated that they had some 32 million subscribers internationally.

If so, only the US operations are ending.
 
Update: 8 Jan 2009

Well, it looks like a compliance hearing was held yesterday. In a nutshell, VOOM says their email system has created a problem in their efforts to prepare its privilege log (list of documents with potential privilege status). In any case, EchoStar needs to submit its privilege log to the court no later than 13 Feb, and VOOM must submit theirs no later than 27 Feb. Other than VOOM using a crappy email system, the next compliance hearing is scheduled for 9 April.
 
Well, apparently all that overhead they spent didn't include a good email system!:D

They need to get their privilege log in order. It would be rather embarrassing if Dish were to find a document pointing out they were out of compliance with the affiliation agreement buried in the discovery documents.:p
 
Well, it looks like a compliance hearing was held yesterday. In a nutshell, VOOM says their email system has created a problem in their efforts to prepare its privilege log (list of documents with potential privilege status). In any case, EchoStar needs to submit its privilege log to the court no later than 13 Feb, and VOOM must submit theirs no later than 27 Feb. Other than VOOM using a crappy email system, the next compliance hearing is scheduled for 9 April.

I wonder want documents they are trying to complete or shred.:D
 
Well, apparently all that overhead they spent didn't include a good email system!:D
All I can say is the folks at VOOM must be using Notes Mail...it costs twice as much and works half as often. The only reason I look at this stuff is to see if the clerk makes a mistakes a posts confidential information...the good stuff that might actually tell us something.
 
in the spirit of the Monster on dish post I made a new avatar. What do you think?
animated.gif
 
Status
Please reply by conversation.

CONGRATS ECHOSTAR! 922 wins best of CES award!

Just wanted to say THANKS.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 2)