VIP722k 1080p upconversion possible?

[Hall]

Could the 722k upconvert the signals to 1080p with a software update?,or does the chipsets in it restrict it to just 1080i?.

I don't know what chipset it uses but it should be readily available (look for Scott's thread when it was released as he typically takes pictures of the insides!) and then look up the specs from Broadcom.

In the end though, it means nothing even if it "could". Certainly doesn't mean Dish will ever add the capability.

 

[cosmo_kramer]

I hope you understand that upconverting a DVD to 1080p, is still not close to BluRay quality.

Depends on your definition of the word 'close'...

 

[whatchel1]

You jumped the rails here. CBS is often considered the best PQ in HD sports yet you insist that it cannot be true and the PQ suffering is "noticeable".

The biggest problem I have seen in what he has said is he is quoting the field not the frame spec. 2 fields make a frame in the interlaced scan. The speed at which the 2 are laced together is much faster than the human eye can see.

 

[BBruin66]

You jumped the rails here. CBS is often considered the best PQ in HD sports yet you insist that it cannot be true and the PQ suffering is "noticeable".

I am so glad they have the AFC contract. Even if I have to deal with Phil Simms, it's better than the 720p of Fox. However, Fox overall production puts CBS to shame.

 

[joegr]

I guess that what confuses me here is why the OP wants this.
There's no reason (for me anyway) to believe that up conversion in the 722K would be any better than the up conversion happening in the TV itself.

 

[Peter Parker]

Depends on your definition of the word 'close'...

I agree. While I agree that an upconverted DVD is not the SAME as BD I ahave sometimes been amazed at the difference in picture quality between upconverted and non upconverted materail.

 

[brewtownska]

Although I normally agree that the TV's internal upconversion should be just as good (or better) than another device, I have found one TV in my house does a horrible job of it. It's a non-Aquos Sharp from a few years ago, LC42SB45U, and the 1080i image on HD channels is not good. Have tried both Component and HDMI. If I play blu-ray movies or games on PS3 thru the same HDMI, things look pretty good. So whether it's just the higher bitrate, or a 1080i to 1080p upconversion issue, I'm just not very happy with how the 722 looks on this TV.

Somewhat related, when we had a free PPV movie via Dish, I noticed some were listed as 1080p. Is that truly a 1080p image, or other processing to trick us. Because if the 722 can display THAT in 1080p, I don't see why it couldn't upconvert everything passing thru if we wanted to. May be just need to have something modified in the software to enable the option.

 

[primetimeguy]

Although I normally agree that the TV's internal upconversion should be just as good (or better) than another device, I have found one TV in my house does a horrible job of it. It's a non-Aquos Sharp from a few years ago, LC42SB45U, and the 1080i image on HD channels is not good. Have tried both Component and HDMI. If I play blu-ray movies or games on PS3 thru the same HDMI, things look pretty good. So whether it's just the higher bitrate, or a 1080i to 1080p upconversion issue, I'm just not very happy with how the 722 looks on this TV.

Somewhat related, when we had a free PPV movie via Dish, I noticed some were listed as 1080p. Is that truly a 1080p image, or other processing to trick us. Because if the 722 can display THAT in 1080p, I don't see why it couldn't upconvert everything passing thru if we wanted to. May be just need to have something modified in the software to enable the option.

The difference you are seeing isn't the 1080i vs 1080p, it is broadcast TV compared to Blu-ray. So the improvements you see are because of bitrate.

As for PPV 1080p, yes there are some. Keep in mind that a source at 1080p24 takes less bandwidth than 1080i60 so this means the 1080p24 PPV actually use less bandwidth than normal broadcast, everything else being equal.

That being said, the PPV 1080p movies do look better because there is less compression happening. I think someone around here made some educated guesses based on the file size to show the files were bigger, but I want to say they were on the order of 1/4 the size of the Blu-Ray file. Keep in mind also their is no HD audio with the HD PPV.

so from a PQ standpoint things are in this order from bad to good:
1) Dish broadcast channel
2) Dish PPV movie
3) Blu-Ray

And that is because of bitrate and not resolution.

 

[tempVAdish]

And that is because of bitrate and not resolution.

I'm glad someone actually mentioned the bitrate. What's Dish using for regular HD, about 8 Mb? Regular SD DVD's typically run 8 Mb, BluRay's can peak as high as 60 Mb. Bitrate makes the difference in quality more so than the resolution. I'm hard pressed to tell the difference on my PS3 between a 720 movie or a 1080. Sure 1080 is a higher resolution, but with a 720 you can put more information in the same file size as a lower bitrate 1080.

Also, Dish's 1080p PPV are not streamed real time, they're downloaded and stored on the hard drive, so they can up the ante on bitrate for them.

 

[whatchel1]

I'm glad someone actually mentioned the bitrate. What's Dish using for regular HD, about 8 Mb? Regular SD DVD's typically run 8 Mb, BluRay's can peak as high as 60 Mb. Bitrate makes the difference in quality more so than the resolution. I'm hard pressed to tell the difference on my PS3 between a 720 movie or a 1080. Sure 1080 is a higher resolution, but with a 720 you can put more information in the same file size as a lower bitrate 1080.

Also, Dish's 1080p PPV are not streamed real time, they're downloaded and stored on the hard drive, so they can up the ante on bitrate for them.

It's hard to exactly quantify the bit rate on E that easily. They use VBR (variable bit rate) where they shift bits tween all the different channels on the tp. On 1 ch it could be 15 while a talking head pix might only be 4. This is a continuous shifting of bits tween all the chs on a tp. But it is never the rate that a Blu-Ray can output. Really can't say what the new streaming bit rates are though.

 

[Tampa8]

My only true form of comparison is OTA 1080I and Blu-Ray. (Of course Dish but that would not be full rez) If that is a valid comparison, there is a most definite difference, that I would describe exactly as Jhon69 did. I would add objects/people seem to have more definition from the background in 1080P, sort of a semi 3D effect. Most noticeable in outdoor shots.

 

[primetimeguy]

OTA uses MPEG2, dish uses MPEG4 which is theoretically about twice as efficient. A lot depends on content but 10-11mbps in mpeg4 is pretty comparable to 19mbps in mpeg2 ota. You won't find any dish channels at 10mbps.

 

[TheKrell]

Really can't say what the new streaming bit rates are though.

I was playing around with this a lot last month. The HD programs all came down variable but many were surprisingly steady at 8Mbps. I was very happy with the PQ. SD was MUCH better than via sat, with something that looked to my eye more like a DVD. Last night I was looking at a Care Bears Oopsie Does It with my 7yo, which was supposedly SD. But it was widescreen and I suspect mislabelled. Also great PQ.

 

[whatchel1]

I was playing around with this a lot last month. The HD programs all came down variable but many were surprisingly steady at 8Mbps. I was very happy with the PQ. SD was MUCH better than via sat, with something that looked to my eye more like a DVD. Last night I was looking at a Care Bears Oopsie Does It with my 7yo, which was supposedly SD. But it was widescreen and I suspect mislabelled. Also great PQ.

8Mbps isn't that bad. It could be better. This is just something I think they should do. I feel that they should start putting 2 or 3 HD's at most per tp then fill in with SD then the VBR would probably work a bit better and have more bits to shift tween the HD's and worry less about the SD as most times those can get by w/ 1.5 to 2 just fine(all this in MPEG 4 Turbo 8psk).

 

[rajmarie]

A good comparison will be dish 1080p ppv on demand movie to a bluray.

Comparing hd channels to bluray is not fair IMO.

But as someone said earlier....tv plays an important part also. Some tv does very good job in up converting sd to hd. Both my vizio & sammy does excellent in it.

To be fair & in my eyes....dish hd signals are great. Heck their sd signals are good too for upto 37" tv

 

[primetimeguy]

A good comparison will be dish 1080p ppv on demand movie to a bluray.

Comparing hd channels to bluray is not fair IMO.

But as someone said earlier....tv plays an important part also. Some tv does very good job in up converting sd to hd. Both my vizio & sammy does excellent in it.

To be fair & in my eyes....dish hd signals are great. Heck their sd signals are good too for upto 37" tv

Since i had a couple free ppv coupons from dish i thought id do a comparison. I watched the first 5min of transformers 3 on hd ppv and compared to the bluray. Picture is noticably softer to me and i still see instances of macroblocking on ppv, especially the crash landing on the moon. While ppv doesnt match blu, it is still better than their normal broadcast channels.

As another data point, i also see macroblocking on local channels from dish that i dont see OTA.

For reference, watching on 57in display from about 11ft away.

 

[whatchel1]

Since i had a couple free ppv coupons from dish i thought id do a comparison. I watched the first 5min of transformers 3 on hd ppv and compared to the bluray. Picture is noticably softer to me and i still see instances of macroblocking on ppv, especially the crash landing on the moon. While ppv doesnt match blu, it is still better than their normal broadcast channels.

As another data point, i also see macroblocking on local channels from dish that i dont see OTA.

For reference, watching on 57in display from about 11ft away.

There is no doubt that the Blu-Ray will be better. I doubt that even the dnld ppv via the net still has the bitrate that the disc has.

 

[John Kotches]

You jumped the rails here. CBS is often considered the best PQ in HD sports yet you insist that it cannot be true and the PQ suffering is "noticeable".

It could be that CBS upgraded to 1080p30 equipment, which would make it look better.

But I tend to watch on a 10' wide screen so artifacts are very noticeable.

 

[John Kotches]

The difference you are seeing isn't the 1080i vs 1080p, it is broadcast TV compared to Blu-ray. So the improvements you see are because of bitrate.

As for PPV 1080p, yes there are some. Keep in mind that a source at 1080p24 takes less bandwidth than 1080i60 so this means the 1080p24 PPV actually use less bandwidth than normal broadcast, everything else being equal.

That being said, the PPV 1080p movies do look better because there is less compression happening. I think someone around here made some educated guesses based on the file size to show the files were bigger, but I want to say they were on the order of 1/4 the size of the Blu-Ray file. Keep in mind also their is no HD audio with the HD PPV.

so from a PQ standpoint things are in this order from bad to good:
1) Dish broadcast channel
2) Dish PPV movie
3) Blu-Ray

And that is because of bitrate and not resolution.

More than that can play into the equation as well.

What are the networks delivering in? MPEG-2 or MPEG-4? If it's MPEG-2 and they're transcoding there is a softening there. If they are changing over to a reduced resolution (1920x1080 --> 1440x1080) that's another factor.

Yet another factor is the encoders involved. Dish has to do real time encoding, blu-ray production does not. That being the case, you will get better visual results from Bluray because it isn't "live". If we compared Bluray encoding at the same bit rate it will still look better simply because it doesn't have to be a realtime encode.

The bitrate plays into it, but so do all of the other factors above.

Wanna fun comparison, try the show The Universe on DVR and compare it to the Bluray. Big difference

 

[jwmcmann]

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but DVD even upscaled is not 1080p!

This is very out of context since I was. Responding to a post that appeared two pages ago...